Getting Another Starting Pitcher?

[seabeachfred]

Initially' date=' the results of this poll were almost exclusively in those choices where we would be getting another starting pitcher. More recently, there have been some votes that we will not get a pitcher. I think people are starting to lose hope. If we don't get a pitcher by the end of the week, I will repost the poll to see if the vote distribution has changed. My vote has changed.[/quote']

 

I don't know how many more times you and Palodios can keep telling Cherington to "right the damn check" because he apparently isn't listening and has been giving his marching orders that no more money is going to be spent. Unless we get another quality starter we could be looking at serious trouble and if that gets the pollies on the board angry, well so be it. As presently constructed just about everything would have to fall in line for us to get to the WS this year.

[Elktonnick]

I don't know how many more times you and Palodios can keep telling Cherington to "right the damn check" because he apparently isn't listening and has been giving his marching orders that no more money is going to be spent. Unless we get another quality starter we could be looking at serious trouble and if that gets the pollies on the board angry' date=' well so be it. As presently constructed just about everything would have to fall in line for us to get to the WS this year.[/quote']

 

Those who are satisfied with the Sox's roster most remember that the Sox scored the most runs yet still finished third in the ALE. There is no guarantee about the second wildcard. It makes sense that Lucchino is lobbying hard for the second one because he knows that without the second wildcard, second in the ALE is unlikely to make the playoffs.

 

Anyone paying attention must realize that many analysts believe that Texas and the Angels have both upgraded their clubs significantly as well as have Yankees. The best one say about the Red Sox moves is they are no worse than they were last year although that is debatable. They certainly haven't improved as much as the other three teams have.

 

Many of the professional sportwriters think that for the Sox to be considered contenders everything must break right. There is no margin for error. Quite frankly, I think it is wishful thinking to believe that Lester Beckett or Buccholtz can make it to the All Star break without one them missing a few starts for this that or another thing.

[User Name]

The Angels are terribly overrated.

 

And how did Texas upgrade their club "significantly"? They lost Wilson and replaced him with Darvish, who is an unknown, no matter how good he was in Japan, then moved Feliz to the rotation and replaced him with Nathan. It's pretty much the same club as it was in 2011.

[Elktonnick]

The Angels are terribly overrated.

 

And how did Texas upgrade their club "significantly"? They lost Wilson and replaced him with Darvish, who is an unknown, no matter how good he was in Japan, then moved Feliz to the rotation and replaced him with Nathan. It's pretty much the same club as it was in 2011.

 

You may not think so but Darvish is an upgrade. He may be technicaally a rookie but he is the real deal. He certainly better than anyone we have signed. Most Sports Reporters and most analysts rate them as: LA, NY, Tex The sox have not improved but have diminished. I was just repeating what the smart money is saying. We aren't going anywhere with this club as presently constituted. We can hope but you bet with your head not with your heart.

[SoxSport]

Most Sports Reporters and most analysts rate them as: LA' date=' NY, Tex The sox have not improved but have diminished. I was just repeating what the smart money is saying. We aren't going anywhere with this club as presently constituted. We can hope but you bet with your head not with your heart.[/quote']

 

I don't think the Sox have diminished. Their bullpen looks deeper right now--even without Pap. The key is having a healthy Buchholz, and maybe a good 4th starter in Bard. Last year, they were the best team in baseball in the middle part of the year--even with a sub-par CC.

The other important piece is Youkilis. They never have done well with Youks out of the lineup parts of the last two years. They stay healthy, and they can compete with anybody.

 

Keep in mind the analysts are most often wrong. If Buchholz stays healthy, and Youks and CC come back, they will be in the thick of it. Bailey is a damn good closer if he can stay healthy.

[User Name]

You may not think so but Darvish is an upgrade. He may be technicaally a rookie but he is the real deal. He certainly better than anyone we have signed. Most Sports Reporters and most analysts rate them as: LA' date=' NY, Tex The sox have not improved but have diminished. I was just repeating what the smart money is saying. We aren't going anywhere with this club as presently constituted. We can hope but you bet with your head not with your heart.[/quote']

 

Darvish has not pitched a single inning in MLB. He is a question mark until he proves the contrary. Who we have signed compared to him is inconsequential to the discussion.

[User Name]

I don't think the Sox have diminished. Their bullpen looks deeper right now--even without Pap. The key is having a healthy Buchholz, and maybe a good 4th starter in Bard. Last year, they were the best team in baseball in the middle part of the year--even with a sub-par CC.

The other important piece is Youkilis. They never have done well with Youks out of the lineup parts of the last two years. They stay healthy, and they can compete with anybody.

 

Keep in mind the analysts are most often wrong. If Buchholz stays healthy, and Youks and CC come back, they will be in the thick of it. Bailey is a damn good closer if he can stay healthy.

 

This.

[Palodios]

Initially' date=' the results of this poll were almost exclusively in those choices where we would be getting another starting pitcher. More recently, there have been some votes that we will not get a pitcher. I think people are starting to lose hope. If we don't get a pitcher by the end of the week, I will repost the poll to see if the vote distribution has changed. My vote has changed.[/quote']

 

I am still convinced that it will happen. Ben is trying to keep a smile on his face to tell the agents and the other GMs that he's not desperate. But, you and I both know that he needs to find someone to fill in that last spot of the rotation. Floyd, Garza, Oswalt, Jackson and Jurrjens are all still available, and according to the reports from the Brewers, Marcum might be an option as well.

[Elktonnick]

Darvish has not pitched a single inning in MLB. He is a question mark until he proves the contrary. Who we have signed compared to him is inconsequential to the discussion.

 

No it isn't. Just because he hasn't pitched in the major leagues yet doesn't mean he wasn't a significant upgrade. Virtually every major baseball reporter and expert recognizes it as such. You don't get to define the terms of the discussion or what is consequential.

[Palodios]

No it isn't. Just because he hasn't pitched in the major leagues yet doesn't mean he wasn't a significant upgrade. Virtually every major baseball reporter and expert recognizes it as such. You don't get to define the terms of the discussion or what is consequential.

 

It doesn't matter if it was an upgrade or not. In 2012, it will be a negligible difference, or a loss of value. He may light the world on fire in 2013 or 2014, but pitching on 4 days rest versus 5 days is a big change, and the Texas summer won't help him get adjusted.

[a700hitter]

I am still convinced that it will happen. Ben is trying to keep a smile on his face to tell the agents and the other GMs that he's not desperate. But' date=' you and I both know that he needs to find someone to fill in that last spot of the rotation. Floyd, Garza, Oswalt, Jackson and Jurrjens are all still available, and according to the reports from the Brewers, Marcum might be an option as well.[/quote']One thing Cherrington has been is very honest about his intentions. Until now, he has done everything that he has indicated he would do. He has said a few times that he is happy with the staff. That gives me a lot of concern.

[Elktonnick]

I don't think the Sox have diminished. Their bullpen looks deeper right now--even without Pap. The key is having a healthy Buchholz, and maybe a good 4th starter in Bard. Last year, they were the best team in baseball in the middle part of the year--even with a sub-par CC.

The other important piece is Youkilis. They never have done well with Youks out of the lineup parts of the last two years. They stay healthy, and they can compete with anybody.

 

Keep in mind the analysts are most often wrong. If Buchholz stays healthy, and Youks and CC come back, they will be in the thick of it. Bailey is a damn good closer if he can stay healthy.

 

If!! That's the point the sox have no margin for error. Their starting LF is going to miss openning day and they haven't started spring training yet. The team is older and with health question marks galore. Most of their position players have health concerns. There are questions whether their bull pen is deeper. They don't have a 4 and 5 starter. Their nbr 3 starter is coming off an injury, their "ace" ended the year out of shape. Those are the facts.

[Palodios]

One thing Cherrington has been is very honest about his intentions. Until now' date=' he has done everything that he has indicated he would do. He has said a few times that he is happy with the staff. That gives me a lot of concern.[/quote']

 

The Yankees signed those two guys on Friday. BC talked to Oswalt on Monday. BC talked to the White Sox on Wednesday. He didn't bring Oswalt an offer on Saturday morning, but he's keeping in contact. He's not going to give Oswalt 1/15 to come here, and he's not giving up Ranaudo, Jacobs, Lavarnway +5 to get Floyd. He's happy with the rotation, but he is putting a lot of effort into finding that 4th guy on a fair deal.

 

I am convinced that he's going to find someone. This team is one piece away, and BC knows it.

[Elktonnick]

It doesn't matter if it was an upgrade or not. In 2012' date=' it will be a negligible difference, or a loss of value. He may light the world on fire in 2013 or 2014, but pitching on 4 days rest versus 5 days is a big change, and the Texas summer won't help him get adjusted.[/quote']

 

Of course it matters that he is an upgrade. It was a significant signing the Rangers are a better team then they were. Plus it looks like the Rangers aren't finished. They seem to have no fear of spending. Who knows they may yet make another big move. Whereas the Sox are dithering over Oswalt. I'll change my view if we sign Oswalt.

[a700hitter]

The Yankees signed those two guys on Friday. BC talked to Oswalt on Monday. BC talked to the White Sox on Wednesday. He didn't bring Oswalt an offer on Saturday morning' date=' but he's keeping in contact. [b']He's not going to give Oswalt 1/15 to come here,[/b] and he's not giving up Ranaudo, Jacobs, Lavarnway +5 to get Floyd. He's happy with the rotation, but he is putting a lot of effort into finding that 4th guy on a fair deal.

 

I am convinced that he's going to find someone. This team is one piece away, and BC knows it.

Oswalt is reportedly asking for only $8 million.

[Palodios]

Of course it matters that he is an upgrade. It was a significant signing the Rangers are a better team then they were. Plus it looks like the Rangers aren't finished. They seem to have no fear of spending. Who knows they may yet make another big move. Whereas the Sox are dithering over Oswalt. I'll change my view if we sign Oswalt.

 

You're missing the point. Darvish will take a year to adjust.

[Palodios]

Oswalt is reportedly asking for only $8 million.

 

Right, and Floyd won't cost 8 prospects either-- what I'm saying is that BC is looking for value.

[Emmz]

No it isn't. Just because he hasn't pitched in the major leagues yet doesn't mean he wasn't a significant upgrade. Virtually every major baseball reporter and expert recognizes it as such. You don't get to define the terms of the discussion or what is consequential.

 

Reporters?

[a700hitter]

Right' date=' and Floyd won't cost 8 prospects either-- what I'm saying is that BC is looking for value.[/quote']Oswalt at $8 million for 1 year is value. He can stop looking.

[User Name]

No it isn't. Just because he hasn't pitched in the major leagues yet doesn't mean he wasn't a significant upgrade. Virtually every major baseball reporter and expert recognizes it as such. You don't get to define the terms of the discussion or what is consequential.

 

Logic would dictate that he doesn't directly impact the Red Sox (our topic of discussion) in 2012. Logic gets to dictate this one.

 

Also, if you think Darvish is going to come here and provide better production than Wilson out of the get-go, you're drinking the same Kool-Aid we drank with Dice-K. The adjustment takes time, and that ballpark will not help.

[Palodios]

Oswalt at $8 million for 1 year is value. He can stop looking.

 

Oswalt is a 34 year old ace who is looking for a 1/8 million contract, and yet no one has given him an offer yet. Maybe he isn't healthy? I'd take half a season of Oswalt for 8 million, but we'll see what happens.

[iortiz]

Oswalt is a 34 year old ace who is looking for a 1/8 million contract' date=' and yet no one has given him an offer yet. Maybe he isn't healthy? I'd take half a season of Oswalt for 8 million, but we'll see what happens.[/quote']

 

If he is not healthy, thank you but no thank you. No more injured players please.

[Elktonnick]

Logic would dictate that he doesn't directly impact the Red Sox (our topic of discussion) in 2012. Logic gets to dictate this one.

 

Also, if you think Darvish is going to come here and provide better production than Wilson out of the get-go, you're drinking the same Kool-Aid we drank with Dice-K. The adjustment takes time, and that ballpark will not help.

 

No logic doesn't dictate that. That is the classic fallacy of the a priori assumption. Baseball and sport are full of examples of impact players during their first year. The Japanese leagues while not the majors are 4 A at least. Darvish isn't Dice-K but Dice-K in 2007 won 15 games and the Red Sox won the World series. If that is drinking Kool Aid then make mine grape.

[Palodios]

If he is not healthy' date=' thank you but no thank you. No more injured players please.[/quote']

 

He just needs to bridge the gap to Dice-k, really. People may rag on DM, but atleast he's a major league starter, unlike some of the guys we saw out there last year.

[a700hitter]

He just needs to bridge the gap to Dice-k' date=' really. People may rag on DM, but atleast he's a major league starter, unlike some of the guys we saw out there last year.[/quote']Dice K should not be in any Red Sox plans for 2012. In September he will be 18 months remved from TJ, which is the soonest he will be back.

[User Name]

No logic doesn't dictate that. That is the classic fallacy of the a priori assumption. Baseball and sport are full of examples of impact players during their first year. The Japanese leagues while not the majors are 4 A at least. Darvish isn't Dice-K but Dice-K in 2007 won 15 games and the Red Sox won the World series. If that is drinking Kool Aid then make mine grape.

 

 

Darvish doesn't impact the Red Sox. At all. And he's unproven. Enjoy your Kool-Aid.

[Elktonnick]

Darvish doesn't impact the Red Sox. At all. And he's unproven. Enjoy your Kool-Aid.

 

Of course he does. Improved Texas and Angels teams mean that it will be harder for the Red Sox to make the playoffs.

[iortiz]

Of course he does. Improved Texas and Angels teams mean that it will be harder for the Red Sox to make the playoffs.

 

Assuming that NYY will likely finish 1st in our division, our chances would be reduced to compete for the wild card, so... yes, LAA and Tex improvements will affect us, regardless that we play several games against them which could mark the difference between the "Go" or "NO GO" to the POs.

[User Name]

How did Texas improve? They swapped out Wilson for Darvish, who has not thrown a pitch in the Majors. Unless you have a crystal ball, making that affirmation is baseless conjecture.

 

The Angels added to their rotation and Pujols, but that team still has a bunch of question marks in the bullpen, health-wise and offense.

 

Let's stay realistic here. No need to turn up the dial on other teams' rosters just to be defeatists. Just sayin'.

[Elktonnick]

How did Texas improve? They swapped out Wilson for Darvish, who has not thrown a pitch in the Majors. Unless you have a crystal ball, making that affirmation is baseless conjecture.

 

The Angels added to their rotation and Pujols, but that team still has a bunch of question marks in the bullpen, health-wise and offense.

 

Let's stay realistic here. No need to turn up the dial on other teams' rosters just to be defeatists. Just sayin'.

 

Based on the professional evaluation of talent, Nolan Ryan doesn't spend 50 million dollars not to improve. He doesn't spend 50 million dollars on a hunch. It is not baseless conjecure as you contend but rather the informed opinion of a highly schooled and experienced professional. Unproven is simply inaccurate in this case. There is ample evidence to prove to experienced highly skilled professionals that run the Texas Rangers that Darvish is and will be a signiificant improvement. That fact that an unskilled amatuer disagrees with that assessment doesn't refute the reality that Darvish improves the Rangers significantly and the Red Sox have made no such corresponding countermove to offset it. And are worse off as a result.