What did the Sox get for Epstein?

[a700hitter]

Masters are few. Bachelors degrees, yes. But that's a big change from 10-20 years ago.

 

That's why it was so easy for Beane and his Harvard assistant to do so well very early.

Baseball is always a battle between the quantitative guys with education and the qualitative types with experience.

It's still run like the old boys club and it always has been that way. If tobacco hadn't become such an anathema in society, they would still be sitting around the ballpark chomping on cigars.

[seabeachfred]

Look again.

 

He died in 09, but we got 2 really nice years out of him first. His 2008 campaign was really, really good -- any time you can get 70 innings of sub 3.5 ERA ball from a reliever, he's had a danged good year.

 

His performance in 07 came at a time when other relief options (notably Okajima) were failing from overuse and we were realing from the failure of the Eric Gagne experiment. It was extremely well-timed and it's a big part of what got us the division. That's what bought him a chance to right the ship after 09.

 

It was brought to my attention Dojji by MVP yesterday and you today and I stand corrected. Thanks for the heads-up. I must have inadvertantly assumed that since he was dead meat in 2009 and 2010 before we traded him away that his 2008 season was mush as well. It wasn't. Perhaps it was the fact that after pitching well during the regular season in 2007, especially towards the end, that he crapped out in the World Series. At any rate, thanks again you and MVP.

[VA Sox Fan]

As someone told me very recently' date=' butt out and mind your own damn business. You were not part of this exchange LynNay, so take your own advice. BUTT OUT AND MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS. :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown[/quote']

 

What in the hell are you talking about fred? :dunno::thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

[SoxSport]

I think Carpenter has been on their radar for awhile and might surprise. He may well have been preferred over McNutt--though they won't admit such things publically. The guy pitched well for the Cubs, and had that short bad stretch in AAA where he had some physical problems. He has a decent chance to rebound into a good setup guy or closer if he can find his command. Hard to find 26yo guys who can throw 100.

[FredLynn]

I think Carpenter has been on their radar for awhile and might surprise. He may well have been preferred over McNutt--though they won't admit such things publically. The guy pitched well for the Cubs' date=' and had that short bad stretch in AAA where he had some physical problems. He has a decent chance to rebound into a good setup guy or closer if he can find his command. Hard to find 26yo guys who can throw 100.[/quote']

 

Carpenter reminds me a little of Andrew Miller. Big arm; lots of potential there, but he cannot locate the baseball. It doesn't matter if you can throw 200mph if you cannot find the strike zone. So right now, he is simply an addition to the dung heap. Fair compensation for Epstein, wouldn't you say?

[SoxSport]

Carpenter reminds me a little of Andrew Miller. Big arm; lots of potential there' date=' but he cannot locate the baseball. It doesn't matter if you can throw 200mph if you cannot find the strike zone. So right now, he is simply an addition to the dung heap. Fair compensation for Epstein, wouldn't you say?[/quote']

 

More than fair, considering Epstein got booted out the door.

 

Somewhere, LL and Henry are having a few drinks about it on his yacht.

[Muggah]

Carpenter reminds me a little of Andrew Miller. Big arm; lots of potential there' date=' but he cannot locate the baseball. It doesn't matter if you can throw 200mph if you cannot find the strike zone. So right now, he is simply an addition to the dung heap. Fair compensation for Epstein, wouldn't you say?[/quote']

 

Oh ya. When all is said and done they'll find they would have gotten more production out of a case of new fungo bats.

[a700hitter]

Cubs, Red Sox Finalize Epstein Compensation

By Ben Nicholson-Smith [March 29 at 1:12pm CST]

 

After a months-long wait, the Cubs and Red Sox have finalized the compensation for Theo Epstein. The Red Sox sent 19-year-old prospect Jair Bogaerts to the Cubs to complete the deal, MLB.com's Carrie Muskat reports.

He is the brother of our top prospect.

[kapsis21]

He is the brother of our top prospect.

 

what we send Boagartes (even though he is brother) and Theo and we got 2 minor league guys, Carpenter is now injurred and the other kid he doesnt even qualify as prospect.. this seems like a total lopsided deal..

[pedroias laser]

From the looks of things we got the wool over our eyes. I never like to assume anything but this does

not look promising at all regarding medical records etc..

[ibot2much]

From the looks of things we got the wool over our eyes. I never like to assume anything but this does

not look promising at all regarding medical records etc..

 

This one is good, but Joe Maddon saying that CC's wrist problem was known to them for a while is even better......

[pedroias laser]

Yea i read that somewhere that Maddon stated that i just cannot for the life of me

remember when he said it. I look at it this way was the price too much for CC of

course i have never thought of him as an elite player but more of a complentary

piece.

[jung]

As far as CC's wrist is concerned, based on how it has been explained, it does not matter that Madden says the Rays knew about CC's wrist. I think it unlikely that the Sox did not know about CC's wrist.

 

As it turns out the guy has been treated for it by one means or another for what....most of his ML career. You really think the Sox had no idea that there was some issue there? It is entirely possible that they did not know to what degree but it is not like baseball clubhouses are run by CIA operatives.

 

I suspect the Sox knew there was something there and are not disposed to tell us that at this point. What good does it do them? So the Madden story gives the media another 1,000 words or so of print copy but I don't think it means anything cause I suspect the Sox knew there was something there and chose to ignore it or at the very least not consider it an issue.

[pedroias laser]

I think the problem is and has been the price of CC not the fact of the wrist issue. If they

went say 3-4 years and 40-50 mil i would have been alot happier sleeping at night.

[ibot2much]

Yea i read that somewhere that Maddon stated that i just cannot for the life of me

remember when he said it. I look at it this way was the price too much for CC of

course i have never thought of him as an elite player but more of a complentary

piece.

 

So they knew about the wrist, babied it for a few years and got production out of CC. The RS come in gangbusters, waving JH's checkbook and VASTLY overpay for him. I agree with you that he never was an elite player, but he got paid by the RS as if he was elite.

[jung]

I agree that the price for CC was way wrong as was the term of the contract. The likelihood that they may well have tossed all that money at CC in spite of the wrist just adds fuel to the fire.

 

I will never understand this deal for as long as I live wrist or no wrist. It was more senseless than Lackey by a mile.

 

Now as many have suggested, CC will NOT be back even early in the regular season. He is on his way to a minor league rehab stint and he is not even ready for that yet.

 

So it is going to be year 3 at best of a 7 year deal before we will likely see a full season of CC at anything like even the numbers he produced in Tampa as you have to think CC is going to miss at least the first month of this season. Cashmen probably wakes up laughing his ass off every morning.

 

Amazing how one really bad move can set the tone for a franchise for years. As bad as some of the other Sox big dollar signings have been they do not come close to having the downstream impact of the Crawford signing. For example, there is still every chance in my view that ownership will not open up the purse strings to sign Ellsbury for what it will take just to tie down two outfield positions at better than $21M each. Lets face it CC has only set the market for the Sox. His contract has not set the market for any other team, another indication of how bad the CC deal is in fact.

 

So now at least in my view, only the Sox will be required to better CC's deal in order to keep Ellsbury in Boston. Outstanding......Theo should have stopped whining about needing State Troopers at the end of his street and just been happy that there was not a lynch mob after him. That said I really still think there are larger issues with the Sox organization including an owner that did nothing to stop this deal when he could have and then could not keep his mouth shut about not liking the deal from the start.

[pedroias laser]

Yea CC has not even begun to swing live as of today only 20 bunts i believe which is fine i get it

considering we want a healthy CC. The problem i have is why didn't JH say something beyond the

media and stop opening his wallet and take a hard look at the man's medical records for crying out

loud. I love this team sometimes even more then my wife lol jk, But things have to get better right?

[Bellhorn04]

One of the things that makes the Crawford signing look so bad now is the breakout year Ellsbury had. I don't think anybody can honestly say they saw Ellsbury suddenly becoming an MVP candidate.

[a700hitter]

One of the things that makes the Crawford signing look so bad now is the breakout year Ellsbury had. I don't think anybody can honestly say they saw Ellsbury suddenly becoming an MVP candidate.

Whether anyone saw it coming isn't relevant. It did happen, and to a great extent it made Crawford an unecessary acquisition. The money would have been better used on pitching.

[redsoxfan3]

He is the brother of our top prospect.

 

When I first saw it, I thought it was Xander. I was about to be pissed beyond belief. I don't think we lose much with him, since he is a first baseman. We have Gonzalez until 2018, so that means he would be 25 by then. I don't know about his potential as a prospect, but I do know that he is not so good defensively. We don't lose much with the Theo compensation, but we sure as hell did not gain much either. It just turned out to be disappointing.

[a700hitter]

When I first saw it' date=' I thought it was Xander. I was about to be pissed beyond belief. I don't think we lose much with him, since he is a first baseman. We have Gonzalez until 2018, so that means he would be 25 by then. I don't know about his potential as a prospect, but I do know that he is not so good defensively. We don't lose much with the Theo compensation, but we sure as hell did not gain much either. It just turned out to be disappointing.[/quote']When I saw the name, my eyes almost bugged out of my head.

[redsoxfan3]

When I saw the name' date=' my eyes almost bugged out of my head.[/quote']

 

Same here. If we did give up Xander for the compensation, someone in the FO would not be alive tomorrow.

[Spudboy]

One of the things that makes the Crawford signing look so bad now is the breakout year Ellsbury had. I don't think anybody can honestly say they saw Ellsbury suddenly becoming an MVP candidate.

 

I did. Not MVP, but break-out. I predicted it for 2010 but then that linebacker ended his season.

[seabeachfred]

I agree that the price for CC was way wrong as was the term of the contract. The likelihood that they may well have tossed all that money at CC in spite of the wrist just adds fuel to the fire.

 

I will never understand this deal for as long as I live wrist or no wrist. It was more senseless than Lackey by a mile.

 

Now as many have suggested, CC will NOT be back even early in the regular season. He is on his way to a minor league rehab stint and he is not even ready for that yet.

 

So it is going to be year 3 at best of a 7 year deal before we will likely see a full season of CC at anything like even the numbers he produced in Tampa as you have to think CC is going to miss at least the first month of this season. Cashmen probably wakes up laughing his ass off every morning.

 

Amazing how one really bad move can set the tone for a franchise for years. As bad as some of the other Sox big dollar signings have been they do not come close to having the downstream impact of the Crawford signing. For example, there is still every chance in my view that ownership will not open up the purse strings to sign Ellsbury for what it will take just to tie down two outfield positions at better than $21M each. Lets face it CC has only set the market for the Sox. His contract has not set the market for any other team, another indication of how bad the CC deal is in fact.

 

So now at least in my view, only the Sox will be required to better CC's deal in order to keep Ellsbury in Boston. Outstanding......Theo should have stopped whining about needing State Troopers at the end of his street and just been happy that there was not a lynch mob after him. That said I really still think there are larger issues with the Sox organization including an owner that did nothing to stop this deal when he could have and then could not keep his mouth shut about not liking the deal from the start.

 

Meanwhile Epstein is locked away in Chicago preparing to fu@k up another team for years. I often wondered that the reason we signed Crawford was that Epstein didn't think he could worm his way through the mine field t hat is Scott Boras and wouldn't be able to resign Ellsbury. Reports back in 2010 by some bloggers with supposed inside info stated that Jacoby was really upset being moved to left field and even madder when he was wheeled out of action by tailback Beltre. Whether those rumors have legs or not, we know that last season Crawford, for whatever reason(s) sucked big time, both offensively and in the field where he spent part of the time stumbling over sinking fly balls. Now we know he will not be ready in April, may not be ready in May and might not come back until June.

 

What I do know is that if Carl does not get off to a decent start when he does come back he is going to become a target for the boo birds and it could get real ugly at Fenway Park. I hope Crawford is fully mended when he comes back, that they put him in the lineup in one spot and keep him there (second is what he likes best), and that he has a standout two thirds of a season. We need him to perform and his comeback would be a great shot in the arm for our team. The question is will be see the old Crawford or the fraud we all got sick of looking at last year??????

[jung]

Well I was hoping for May on CC but if in fact you are right and it is going to be June......oh my God, I don't even want to think about how ugly things will get around here if he then gets off to a slow start at that point.

 

Geez sbf, did you see something in print taking about June for CC?

 

Now how does just letting him go home at the end of last season taste to us faithful?

[jung]

You know what....there are times when it just takes me to long to do simply arithmetic like add 2+2.

 

I had contended in a recent post that it did not matter what Madden had to say about CC's wrist because in my view the Sox likely knew about it before signing him anyway.

 

If the later part of last season was the first the Sox knew about the wrist, do you think they would have just let him go home without doing an MRI? How much do you want to bet that until somebody speaks up, the fact that they just lest him go home might be the best evidence we have that they knew about the wrist before signing him. Why do an MRI? "This is just CC's wrist acting up and we already know about that" might have been the train of thought!

[Bellhorn04]

Whether anyone saw it coming isn't relevant. It did happen' date=' and to a great extent it made Crawford an unecessary acquisition. The money would have been better used on pitching.[/quote']

 

How would projections of what type of production they were expecting from their outfield over the next several years not be relevant to whether to sign Crawford at that point in time?

[a700hitter]

How would projections of what type of production they were expecting from their outfield over the next several years not be relevant to whether to sign Crawford at that point in time?

Let me clarify. It is not relevant now. It happened and they clearly misjudged the situation. It doesn't matter that other people didn't see it coming. They are paid to know their own organization talent better than "other people". They blew it. The money should have been spent on pitching.

[ORS]

Let me clarify. It is not relevant now. It happened and they clearly misjudged the situation. It doesn't matter that other people didn't see it coming. They are paid to know their own organization talent better than "other people". They blew it. The money should have been spent on pitching.

I'm sorry, but this is just looking for a reason to criticize someone....for something. Entirely too critical. There is absolutely no reason anyone could have reasonably projected Ellsbury to break out to the degree that he did, not with the amount of failure to "reach their ceiling" that they experience with over 90% of their minor league prospects. Furthermore, regardless of Ellsbury's leap to MVP level play, when they signed Crawford they signed the best player available at a position of need, and pitching, at the beginning of last year, was not something they needed to address. Do you really expect them to have signed a credible starting pitcher when Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, and Matsuzaka, with Wakefield in the BP, were all under contract?

 

Everyone in baseball misjudged "the situation" you are creating with Ellsbury. Everyone. What made the first year of the Crawford contract detrimental to their success last year was Crawfords inability to play good baseball last year.

[kapsis21]

I'm sorry, but this is just looking for a reason to criticize someone....for something. Entirely too critical. There is absolutely no reason anyone could have reasonably projected Ellsbury to break out to the degree that he did, not with the amount of failure to "reach their ceiling" that they experience with over 90% of their minor league prospects. Furthermore, regardless of Ellsbury's leap to MVP level play, when they signed Crawford they signed the best player available at a position of need, and pitching, at the beginning of last year, was not something they needed to address. Do you really expect them to have signed a credible starting pitcher when Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, and Matsuzaka, with Wakefield in the BP, were all under contract?

 

Everyone in baseball misjudged "the situation" you are creating with Ellsbury. Everyone. What made the first year of the Crawford contract detrimental to their success last year was Crawfords inability to play good baseball last year.

 

have to agree with you completely.. except i was expecting Ellsbury to show some resurgence the way he did in 07 playoffs.