Red Sox Acquire Bailey

[iortiz]

I hope he does' date=' but if he has a Pap type year, he will gets Paps type money in arbitration. He's not the value acquisition that people think he is. He is a fair market value acquisition from this point on. If he remains cheaper than Paps on an annual basis, it will be because he hasn't performed as well as paps.[/quote']

 

Excellent point. I haven't seen this view.

[iortiz]

He also has been pitching in a ballpark that has about 12 acres of foul territory where the ball just does not carry at all at night. Also' date=' he only throws 40 innings per year over the last 2 seasons. It's hard to compare that to Paps.[/quote']

 

Plus the numbers of saves, injury track record, blah blah...

[iortiz]

The fact is that Bailey's career numbers to date are slightly better than Papelbon's.

 

Bailey: 2.07/.954

Papelbon: 2.33/1.018

 

Paps has been around for 7 years; Bailey just three.

The issue is not whether RIGHT NOW Bailey is as good as Papelbon, because he is, statistically, but whether he can keep it up like Papelbon has done. No one knows that right now.

 

7 vs 3 in a tougher division/environment put the thing in an incomparable scenario. Pap has already a prestige in the league. Bailey still needs to earn it.

[iortiz]

I still don't understand why people blame the Lackey and Crawford signing on Theo only when Lucchino himself has been quoted as saying that he had "some" influence in those signings.

 

If LL is who made/is currently making the "big moves", fine, charge him for good or for bad. If this team fails agin, then...he shall walk as well. He won't have more scapegoats. If true, I don't have clear what is the role of our GM. Top elite VP's assistant?

[User Name]

Excellent point. I haven't seen this view.

 

For the record, he likely won't. It has been pointed out several times by Palodios, but he refuses to acknowledge that arb doesn't work like that.

 

He won't jump from 2-3 mill to 12.5 mill like Papelbon is making next year, so no matter how he pitches, substantial savings in relation to Papelbon will be had.

[a700hitter]

The fact is that Bailey's career numbers to date are slightly better than Papelbon's.

 

Bailey: 2.07/.954

Papelbon: 2.33/1.018

 

Paps has been around for 7 years; Bailey just three.

The issue is not whether RIGHT NOW Bailey is as good as Papelbon, because he is, statistically, but whether he can keep it up like Papelbon has done. No one knows that right now.

He's not as good now, because he has not been able to stay on the field throughout a whole season.

[Elktonnick]

In most, not all situations. There are a lot of aspects in which you need to run a baseball team like, well, a baseball team. It's a hybrid, not only a business, smart ass. Try applying some of your "Business management" techniques to scouting, conditioning and on-field management of a baseball team.

 

I'll wait here.

 

I can see you know nothing about business management. Scouting is merely another word for information gathering or intelligence. Conditioning is rmerely a form of training. Onfield management is merely operations. Seriously, at its most fundamental baseball is a game of economics. It arose in popularity as America transitioned from an agrian society to an industrial one. A baseball game is an allegory for economic productionin in an industrial setting. just like a football game is a mock military battle. Just as military principles are required to be a successful football team, sound operations and business principles are required to be successful baseball team. That's why the Red Sox use sabermetrics just as economists use econometrics etc.

,Many have written about this theme. So it isn't a new concept. But in the end, MLB is a business make no mistake about it.

 

"

[User Name]

I can see you can't see past your own nose as usual. I have never said baseball is not a business. However, those "merelys" you so graciously disregard (because they don't help your argument) are of extreme importance for helping the performance of the on-field product, which in turn sets the tone for the revenues you will perceive from the baseball team. To manage a baseball franchise like a business, you need to manage the baseball team like a baseball team.

 

To avoid future strawmen, let me put it like this. You don't have economists or sabermetricians doing your scouting work or on-field management because those pertain to the baseball side of running a ballclub.

 

Oh, and seriously, get over yourself. Like, seriously.

[Elktonnick]

I can see you can't see past your own nose as usual. I have never said baseball is not a business. However, those "merelys" you so graciously disregard (because they don't help your argument) are of extreme importance for helping the performance of the on-field product, which in turn sets the tone for the revenues you will perceive from the baseball team. To manage a baseball franchise like a business, you need to manage the baseball team like a baseball team.

 

To avoid future strawmen, let me put it like this. You don't have economists or sabermetricians doing your scouting work or on-field management because those pertain to the baseball side of running a ballclub.

 

Oh, and seriously, get over yourself. Like, seriously.

 

Look who says someelse is taking themself too seriously Tha't really a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

It's all about principles son. Talk about myopia. You do suffer from too literal thinking I see you have trouble with concepts and analogy.

 

You love that word strawman. One would almost think you knew what it meant, which of course you don't. Just like most of what you post here. Still waiting for you to answer the questions I posed over a month ago. Get back to me when you do! Then I'll take you seriously, perhaps!

[seabeachfred]

SCM, you are spot on with your take on freedom of expression here and I wish some of the posters here would take a hint, and I'm not talking about UN who at least gives a counter argument to try and upend an opinion he doesn't agree with. However, there is one poster on this board who just rails and roils when something negative is said about the Red Sox. I'm not going to mention who it is but that person knows who I'm talking about because X has spend the better part of the past three months being nasty and personal with a bunch of us who came over here after the 2011 season because we were told what a lively board this was. When someone makes a position of some topic the way to counter it if you disagree is to argue the point with some insight of your own. It does not mean getting nasty and angry at that person without making any defending comments on the topic yourself.

 

Hell, right now all this is opinion anyway. No one knows how this is going to turn out, but I've always been under the impression that a forum is a place to argue the merits or demerits of a position. It is not a place to roil and boil with nasty comments and then being totally unable to counter with a sensible argument of your own. I hope that person I'm talking about is reading this.

[User Name]

Look who says someelse is taking themself too seriously Tha't really a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

It's all about principles son. Talk about myopia. You do suffer from too literal thinking I see you have trouble with concepts and analogy.

 

You love that word strawman. One would almost think you knew what it meant, which of course you don't. Just like most of what you post here. Still waiting for you to answer the questions I posed over a month ago. Get back to me when you do! Then I'll take you seriously, perhaps!

 

The lesson to learn here is that the pot is indeed black.

[User Name]

SCM, you are spot on with your take on freedom of expression here and I wish some of the posters here would take a hint, and I'm not talking about UN who at least gives a counter argument to try and upend an opinion he doesn't agree with. However, there is one poster on this board who just rails and roils when something negative is said about the Red Sox. I'm not going to mention who it is but that person knows who I'm talking about because X has spend the better part of the past three months being nasty and personal with a bunch of us who came over here after the 2011 season because we were told what a lively board this was. When someone makes a position of some topic the way to counter it if you disagree is to argue the point with some insight of your own. It does not mean getting nasty and angry at that person without making any defending comments on the topic yourself.

 

Hell, right now all this is opinion anyway. No one knows how this is going to turn out, but I've always been under the impression that a forum is a place to argue the merits or demerits of a position. It is not a place to roil and boil with nasty comments and then being totally unable to counter with a sensible argument of your own. I hope that person I'm talking about is reading this.

 

Fred, let that s*** go.

[VA Sox Fan]

SCM, you are spot on with your take on freedom of expression here and I wish some of the posters here would take a hint, and I'm not talking about UN who at least gives a counter argument to try and upend an opinion he doesn't agree with. However, there is one poster on this board who just rails and roils when something negative is said about the Red Sox. I'm not going to mention who it is but that person knows who I'm talking about because X has spend the better part of the past three months being nasty and personal with a bunch of us who came over here after the 2011 season because we were told what a lively board this was. When someone makes a position of some topic the way to counter it if you disagree is to argue the point with some insight of your own. It does not mean getting nasty and angry at that person without making any defending comments on the topic yourself.

 

Hell, right now all this is opinion anyway. No one knows how this is going to turn out, but I've always been under the impression that a forum is a place to argue the merits or demerits of a position. It is not a place to roil and boil with nasty comments and then being totally unable to counter with a sensible argument of your own. I hope that person I'm talking about is reading this.

 

Can't stop can you?

[Elktonnick]

The lesson to learn here is that the pot is indeed black.

 

LOL! I hope you meant what you wrote!

[seabeachfred]

Fred' date=' let that s*** go.[/quote']

 

Good advice UN. Consider it done and this time finally and utterly. From now on only baseball talk. Thanks for the heads-up.

[seabeachfred]

Can't stop can you?

 

Just did VA---and I'm going to try my damndest to get along with you from here on in.

[Palodios]

We have plenty discussed this. Here, how I see the things... Again.

 

Pap.

 

He is not prone to injuries.

He has been proved in your environment.

He is still young. He is mature. He is expirienced. He is in his prime.

Since 2008 (4 Y) he has gave you 65+ IP/year as a closer.

Since 2006 he has only posted 1 bad year. Taking that away, he has put 1.98 ERA/5 years.

He has averaged 35+ SV/6 years

Pap is making -17%/y than Moe. No sign or reason to think that he is in a decline. IMO he will be solid next 4 years.

 

Bailey

 

He is prone to injuries and IMO he has not proved good shape and physical conditioning (reason why I assume he gets injuries)

He hasn't been proved in your environment.

He only have 3 years in the majors, again with already injury track record.

He has put 49 & 41 IP last two years.

He has averaged 25 SV/3 Y

Last year he post 3.24, Pap? 2.9

 

Yes, he can make it and still young and will cost you almost nothing, but Pap is a proved, solid, healthy and elite closer reason why he is making that contract.

 

IMO is unfair the comparison. Pap is by far a better piece as a MLB closer.

 

Bailey is still a promise. A good one BTW.

 

BL Today, Pap>>Bailey (great upside if HEALTHY)

 

I absolute agree with you on the innings and health. But Pap's 1.98 ERA is entirely because of his 2006-2008 years. When you're looking at the last three years, his ERA is a full point above that.

 

Papelbon had a solid 2011, but a 2.90 ERA just doesn't

[iortiz]

I absolute agree with you on the innings and health. But Pap's 1.98 ERA is entirely because of his 2006-2008 years. When you're looking at the last three years, his ERA is a full point above that.

 

Papelbon had a solid 2011, but a 2.90 ERA just doesn't

 

... and number of years of MLB service and SVs/year regardless the division and environment?... Anyway...

 

As I said, take away the 2010 numbers (bad year IMO, "s*** happens") and his numbers are very impressive.

 

Honestly, I see a healthy/2.5 ERA /30+ SV/+-65 IP Pap next 4 years in Philly, but only time will tell.

[RedSoxNC84]

... and number of years of MLB service and SVs/year regardless the division and environment?... Anyway...

 

As I said, take away the 2010 numbers (bad year IMO, "s*** happens") and his numbers are very impressive.

 

Honestly, I see a healthy/2.5 ERA /30+ SV/+-65 IP Pap next 4 years in Philly, but only time will tell.

 

I would imagine that Pap's ERA is going to decrease some in Philly. That and with Philly's starting rotation, he won't be under the same kind of pressure he was with Boston. If he stays healthy, I can see him getting a dramatic increase in solid numbers.

[SoxSport]

If LL is who made/is currently making the "big moves"' date=' fine, charge him for good or for bad. If this team fails agin, then...he shall walk as well. He won't have more scapegoats. If true, I don't have clear what is the role of our GM. Top elite VP's assistant?[/quote']

 

I don't think LL was making the personnel moves after Epstein returned from his tantrum a few years back.That's when Epstein took over the personnel part of things and LL concentrated on ballpark improvements and everything else. Not that Henry and LL didn't sign off on major signings, but Theo probably bore the brunt of the responsibility. Which means he took the hit for Lackey and CC. I think his free spending with reluctant OK from Henry plus the September collapse were probably the reasons for his demise in Boston. I see him joined at the hip with Tito, and they both suffered a fall for some of the same reasons. Both claim now they left of their own volition, but that's just window dressing.

[SoxSport]

I would imagine that Pap's ERA is going to decrease some in Philly. That and with Philly's starting rotation' date=' he won't be under the same kind of pressure he was with Boston. If he stays healthy, I can see him getting a dramatic increase in solid numbers.[/quote']

 

Pap really shaped up for his contract year, and you wonder what his response will be to the big contract. Usually there's a letdown, and the new team doesn't get their moneys' worth.

Pap has closed a long time, and his best years may be behind him. He'll be under enough pressure in Philly. The media is tough there, too. The Phillies are a very expensive team expected to win. I wish Pap the best because I like the Phillies.

[RedSoxNC84]

Pap really shaped up for his contract year, and you wonder what his response will be to the big contract. Usually there's a letdown, and the new team doesn't get their moneys' worth.

Pap has closed a long time, and his best years may be behind him. He'll be under enough pressure in Philly. The media is tough there, too. The Phillies are a very expensive team expected to win. I wish Pap the best because I like the Phillies.

 

Agreed, but I think their division isn't quite as tough as the ALE. Then again the pressure will be on him to perform, given that he is coming off of a contract year, and the fans in Philly will expect a lot more out of him for the contract that he has received.