Theo Is Gone - Boston Herald

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

I mean a sellout streak can't only have 1 person so it goes both ways gramps

[SoxSport]

Well, Theo puts a $50K thank you ad in the Globe, and in return gets a positive spin from their reporters

today. That's business.No mention that he is walking away from a disastrous season, in which he did hardly anything right. He is getting away unscathed. Not that he didn't do some good here--he was well paid for it, and it was expected with the budget he had.

[seabeachfred]

The $50K is now chump change to Epstein, but an apology to the fans of the Red Sox might have been an appropriate gesture because he leaves our team is disarray after three or four years of some of the most miserable personnel moves imaginable. I guess we should all be grateful that we can turn the page and move on. My own take is that we will not miss Epstein very much at all, and Francona we won't miss at all. I wonder though how you people out there are feeling about the World Series? I just have no real interest in it because my entire focus is on what the Red Sox are going to do this winter to help us get out of the gutter.

[a700hitter]

The $50K is now chump change to Epstein' date=' but an apology to the fans of the Red Sox might have been an appropriate gesture because he leaves our team is disarray after three or four years of some of the most miserable personnel moves imaginable. I guess we should all be grateful that we can turn the page and move on. My own take is that we will not miss Epstein very much at all, and Francona we won't miss at all. I wonder though how you people out there are feeling about the World Series? I just have no real interest in it because my entire focus is on what the Red Sox are going to do this winter to help us get out of the gutter.[/quote']He did high tail it out of town with the whole organization in disarray.

[SoxSport]

Epstein still owes the Sox. He owes them for the last three years of not winning a playoff game, despite a humungous budget to work with. And he especially owes them for last season--and for Crawford and Lackey.

There must be good reasons why the ownership let him interview the Cubs. I think, in the least, they were sending him a message--as they clearly did Tito. Epstein's performance the past few years--especially last year--dropped off. And they probably thought it was time for a change.

 

You look at Crawford's career stats--his OBP, in particular. Not typical Epstein stats. And the SBs are not valued in the moneyball picture. So why did Epstein go after him? That's clearly what puzzled Henry, who was playing moneyball in Miami before Epstein. He's more of an expert on the subject than Epstein.

You get that reading the book about Billy Beane. Henry was a James disciple in the 90s when he bought the Marlins. Even was successful in money ball fantasy leagues at the time.

 

I don't think Henry was that pleased with Epstein's performance . If he were, he would have kept him.

[seabeachfred]

He did high tail it out of town with the whole organization in disarray.

 

700 Hitter---High tail it out of town he did, but as SoxSport intimated it might have been a case of John Henry finally growing tired of him and wanted him out of town. It puts a lot of heavy lifting on Cherrington's shoulders and maybe we may have to cut him a little slack since our rotation and bullpen is in disarray and we don't know if ownership is interested in a big spending spree this winter. I think we definately need another solid starting pitcher (Darvish maybe?), two good relievers and finally rid ourselves with those who time is up........Varitek, Wakefield, McDonald, Drew and Miller.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not writing off next season but expectations will start off a great deal more modest. I was one of the guilty ones who got carried away with our new acquisitions last winter but saw during the dismal 12 game losing streak in ST that we could have trouble along the way. Of course, I never envisioned that kind of a collapse. Did you or any other person out there?:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

[a700hitter]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/2011_1025sox_collapse_led_to_theos_departure/

[jung]

LL was clearly not happy about Theo saying that if Tito had remained in Boston he would have remained in Boston as well.

[SoxSport]

LL was clearly not happy about Theo saying that if Tito had remained in Boston he would have remained in Boston as well.

 

I think they were both gently eased out. That would put Theo in the same boat as Tito.

Comrades in defeat.

[MDF3530]

Thought I'd share this with you guys

[SoxSport]

LL was clearly not happy about Theo saying that if Tito had remained in Boston he would have remained in Boston as well.

 

I think this quote was taken out of context. Theo was saying he didn't want to pick a new manager with just one year left on his own contract. If Tito had stuck around one more year, then he wouldn't have had to do that. I don't think it was anything personal about Tito. He just didn't want to choose a new manager with one year left on a contract he wasn't sure would be extended (or wanted to have extended).

 

The media never lets the facts get in the away of opinions.

 

It looks to me both were sent a message, and reacted appropriately.

[jung]

I think you may be right about that. LL used exactly the same language and tone that he had used when Tito had commented in his last interview in Boston that he was unsure about support from management.

 

However I don't know if LL knew what Theo had actually said. LL sort of got the answer out very abruptly "you will have to ask Theo about that" (insert Tito for LL's response to Tito's comment) and the question and the line of questioning was sort of cut off at that point.

[VA Sox Fan]

Epstein still owes the Sox. He owes them for the last three years of not winning a playoff game, despite a humungous budget to work with. And he especially owes them for last season--and for Crawford and Lackey.

There must be good reasons why the ownership let him interview the Cubs. I think, in the least, they were sending him a message--as they clearly did Tito. Epstein's performance the past few years--especially last year--dropped off. And they probably thought it was time for a change.

 

You look at Crawford's career stats--his OBP, in particular. Not typical Epstein stats. And the SBs are not valued in the moneyball picture. So why did Epstein go after him? That's clearly what puzzled Henry, who was playing moneyball in Miami before Epstein. He's more of an expert on the subject than Epstein.

You get that reading the book about Billy Beane. Henry was a James disciple in the 90s when he bought the Marlins. Even was successful in money ball fantasy leagues at the time.

 

I don't think Henry was that pleased with Epstein's performance . If he were, he would have kept him.

 

Theo doesn't owe anyone anything. He made moves that looked good but didn't work out. It happens all the time. Crawford has plenty of time to earn his contract. Theo helped bring the Sox 2 World Series. Do you remember what it was like prior to 2004?

 

Let the man go in peace and move on. Best of luck in Chicago and thanks for everything.

[SoxSport]

I think you may be right about that. LL used exactly the same language and tone that he had used when Tito had commented in his last interview in Boston that he was unsure about support from management.

 

However I don't know if LL knew what Theo had actually said. LL sort of got the answer out very abruptly "you will have to ask Theo about that" (insert Tito for LL's response to Tito's comment) and the question and the line of questioning was sort of cut off at that point.

 

This was another one of those media "gotcha" questions to LL in that news conference.

It caught him off guard a bit. The person asking the question knew damn well what Epstein meant when he said that, because he explained it in a news article.

 

He did not want to pick a new manager with one year left in his contract.

 

That's the crux of why they both had to leave. I don't think Henry was going to extend either of them.

He had decided it was time for a change.

[jung]

I don't see how they can keep Ortiz unless he comes at a very favorable price.

 

When you look at the salaries for Closers in MLB it would be hard to argue that teams aren't taking some risk at that position. There is only one Rivera.

 

I still don't think Paps is a make or break decision but I do think that it is sorta' funny the number of places where the Sox appear bloated in salary position by position and in that respect both DH and Closer are good examples. Do we have to pay Ortiz for his left handed bat on a team full of left handed bats? Do we have to pay Paps big money to pitch in the 9th for a team that has made 9th innings virtually meaningless?

 

For a 3 year deal fine....sign Paps if you must as long as you don't make him the highest paid Closer in baseball but Ortiz needs to be on the list of guys that you can only keep at really favorable money.

[Laser Show]

I don't see how they can keep Ortiz unless he comes at a very favorable price.

 

When you look at the salaries for Closers in MLB it would be hard to argue that teams aren't taking some risk at that position. There is only one Rivera.

 

I still don't think Paps is a make or break decision but I do think that it is sorta' funny the number of places where the Sox appear bloated in salary position by position and in that respect both DH and Closer are good examples. Do we have to pay Ortiz for his left handed bat on a team full of left handed bats? Do we have to pay Paps big money to pitch in the 9th for a team that has made 9th innings virtually meaningless?

 

For a 3 year deal fine....sign Paps if you must as long as you don't make him the highest paid Closer in baseball but Ortiz needs to be on the list of guys that you can only keep at really favorable money.

 

Excellent post. That is exactly how I feel about Ortiz and Papelbon both.

 

 

Also,

We do need a closer, but we don't need a Mariano. It would be nice, but let's no spend $15MM a year trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

 

We need to go to a more traditional DH role as well. Those players need breaks from the field, they were absolutely beat come September. Even if we had crawled into the postseason, we would've been beaten in 3 or 4 in the first round.

[SoxSport]

Excellent post. That is exactly how I feel about Ortiz and Papelbon both.

 

 

Also,

We do need a closer, but we don't need a Mariano. It would be nice, but let's no spend $15MM a year trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

 

We need to go to a more traditional DH role as well. Those players need breaks from the field, they were absolutely beat come September. Even if we had crawled into the postseason, we would've been beaten in 3 or 4 in the first round.

 

I hope they go by the unconventional wisdom, and not re-sign Pap and Papi. The smart organizations are the ones that develop their own closers--it's not that difficult. look at how many newbies blossom every year. The Sox have a closer in waiting in Bard. It's almost a no-brainer, except this is a team that has a very hard time cutting the umbilical cord.

 

The other obvious no-sign is Papi. He can do better elsewhere, and should be encouraged.

This is a classic buy high of an ageing player. They need to replace him with another RHD power bat in the lineup, to go with Youkilis.A guy who can play in the field. A one-dimensional DH like Papi is a big negative, in terms of team depth. Another point missed by the media.

[a700hitter]

I hope they go by the unconventional wisdom, and not re-sign Pap and Papi. The smart organizations are the ones that develop their own closers--it's not that difficult. look at how many newbies blossom every year. The Sox have a closer in waiting in Bard. It's almost a no-brainer, except this is a team that has a very hard time cutting the umbilical cord.

 

The other obvious no-sign is Papi. He can do better elsewhere, and should be encouraged.

This is a classic buy high of an ageing player. They need to replace him with another RHD power bat in the lineup, to go with Youkilis.A guy who can play in the field. A one-dimensional DH like Papi is a big negative, in terms of team depth. Another point missed by the media.

Not too many teams develop closers like Papelbon. Look at the Cardinals. They have had a revolving door at the closer spot. Losing Papelbon will cost the Sox the late inning consistency that it has enjoyed for the last several seasons. Bard is a great 8th inning guy, but he is not a no-brainer at closer. Taking Bard out of the 8th inning spot would also leave a gaping hole in the pen. The tandem of Bard and Papelbon is one of the best aspects of the Sox, not one of the problems.

[SoxSport]

Not too many teams develop closers like Papelbon. Look at the Cardinals. They have had a revolving door at the closer spot. Losing Papelbon will cost the Sox the late inning consistency that it has enjoyed for the last several seasons. Bard is a great 8th inning guy' date=' but he is not a no-brainer at closer. Taking Bard out of the 8th inning spot would also leave a gaping hole in the pen. The tandem of Bard and Papelbon is one of the best aspects of the Sox, not one of the problems.[/quote']

 

You can't expect Bard to be satisfied setting up for much longer.He's done it for 2 years, and he might be a better closer than Pap next year, who figures to drop off a bit.

 

Pap's WAR this year is only 2.0 , compared to Bard's 1.7, and that's with Bard fading in Sept.

 

Pap is not worth what he is looking for. They wouldn't pay an outside closer big money--why should they pay Pap? He got his big contract season and wants big bucks.

[User Name]

Bard will pitch where he is asked to pitch. What he wants doesn't matter.

 

Pap is not worth what he's looking for, but the point is that he won't get it either. The Sox can bring him back at their price if they have patience.

[doctorron]

Bard will pitch where he is asked to pitch. What he wants doesn't matter.

 

Pap is not worth what he's looking for, but the point is that he won't get it either. The Sox can bring him back at their price if they have patience.

 

What kind of money and years are they looking for?

[jacksonianmarch]

Pap isnt going to get $12 mil or so per yr for 3 yrs? Really? Soriano got it and he isnt even closing. Paps will get his

[User Name]

Is that what was said? Where? I don't see it.

[jacksonianmarch]

Bard will pitch where he is asked to pitch. What he wants doesn't matter.

 

Pap is not worth what he's looking for, but the point is that he won't get it either. The Sox can bring him back at their price if they have patience.

 

From all reports, he wants a deal for 3 yrs at prime closer money.

[User Name]

He'll get three years, but he won't set the market for closers all time, which was initially what he wanted.

 

Is he going to get it? It would take a miracle.

 

Is he going to get above 12? Sure. Set the market? Nope.

 

I don't see why you're over analyzing this.

[jacksonianmarch]

You're the one saying he wont get what he is asking for. Mariano set the market. I think Paps wants to get close. And for 2012, he will be the guy who sets the market. He's better than Madsen and Bell, the two closest guys to him

[User Name]

Pretty good strawman.

 

What i initially said is that he won't set the market for closers, because he's not worth that much money, and chances are he won't. You're grasping at straws to debate the undebatable.

[Palodios]

Paps is getting between 3 years at 10-15 million a year. No more, no less.

[User Name]

13-14. Not setting the market, and not a very large increase from his 2011 salary.

[redsoxrules]

Paps is getting between 3 years at 10-15 million a year. No more' date=' no less.[/quote']

 

NWIH he gets 15 . I say 12 max