Theo Is Gone - Boston Herald

[jung]

As for Theo having a career path here in Boston, I have to admit that I had that wrong. I thought there was a chance that if the Sox had their way ultimately Theo would move into LL's job with LL possibly becoming CEO of the ever growing Fenway sports enterprises.

 

In part I thought that might happen because the organization would at some point see less need for LL to fulfill his current responsibilities which as President basically amount to being Henry's junk yard dog. When they first bought the team given Henry's way of doing things, I could easily see why it made sense for him to have a guy like LL around. There was the chance that they would build a new park here for example. Getting something like that done in Boston can be a nasty business and had it happened it would have been a perfect opportunity for LL to clamp his jaws onto something or somebody. I am sure there has been ample opportunity just in the projects the team has taken on in recent years.

 

Seeing how the organization has handled itself particularly in the last few days I no longer thing Henry will want anything but a junk yard dog in the President's position and that is not what Theo would have in mind as a part of his career path. If Henry grows weary of LL at some point he will get himself a new junk yard dog but we won't see somebody like Theo in the President's position. So Theo would not have had anyplace to go within this organization in my view even if LL got himself tossed.

 

I still think this is a convenient separation period for both sides given the circumstances. The only difference in my earlier post on this topic was thinking Theo did have an eventual career path here in Boston.

[a700hitter]

I have a question about evaluating Theo's legacy. It seems that we will have to wait 2 -3 years to see how his last classes of draftees work out. Should we take into consideration the prospect that we get for Theo when determining his legacy?

[FredLynn]

I have a question about evaluating Theo's legacy. It seems that we will have to wait 2 -3 years to see how his last classes of draftees work out. Should we take into consideration the prospect that we get for Theo when determining his legacy?

 

He has nothing to do with the identity of that prospect. He is not making a choice. I say we leave that person or persons out. Furthermore, he is only moderately involved in the selection of who we draft, or have drafted, while he was here. I will give him credit for choosing a good evaluation team, but not for the choices themselves.

[example1]

He has nothing to do with the identity of that prospect. He is not making a choice. I say we leave that person or persons out. Furthermore' date=' he is only moderately involved in the selection of who we draft, or have drafted, while he was here. I will give him credit for choosing a good evaluation team, but not for the choices themselves.[/quote']

 

How about for stockpiling the draft picks in the first place?

[FredLynn]

How about for stockpiling the draft picks in the first place?

 

IMO that counts since he had a direct hand in the results. From what I understand, Theo is not involved in negotiating the compensation the Sox will get when he leaves.

The draft picks that have already been made during his tenure he should get partial credit for, shared with his scouts.

[example1]

IMO that counts since he had a direct hand in the results...

 

The draft picks that have already been made during his tenure he should get partial credit for, shared with his scouts.

 

Except for the ones where the team wouldn't have picked them if it weren't ultimately for his decision to let the FA go and retain the draft picks. In other words, he would get complete credit for all MLB success from the following group:

 

Vitek

Brentz

Ranaudo

Workman

Barnes

Swihart

Owens

Bradley Jr.,

 

And major partial credit--I would argue at least the credit that a group leader in a group project gets--for all the rest of their current farm system, given that he could have stopped the drafting of any of them at any time?

 

Seems like there's a lot of potential WAR for not very much money there.

[a700hitter]

I still find it laughable to pretend that Theo was pushed out, as if he wouldn't still be around if the Cubs position weren't open.

 

I haven't seen a report that backs that up. So far, it is "Theo offered 20m for promotion" and "Theo deciding whether or not to go", not "Red Sox secretly fire Theo"..

I'm not looking to beat this dead horse some more, but I had one other thought about this. If the Cubs came along at a time when it was convenient for the owners to change course from Theo, I thank him for his contributions to the 2004 and 2007 teams and wish him well in the future. If the owners really wanted to keep him, but he decided to bolt for more money after crippling the team with Lackey's and Crawford's contracts with no near term help coming from the farm, then I still thank him for 2004 and 2007, but I don't wish him well in Chicago. If he bolted after making this mess and he is walking away from it, I don't think that is very honorable. I'd prefer to think that the Owners wanted him gone and he exited gracefully with. A handsome raise.

[example1]

I'm not looking to beat this dead horse some more' date=' but I had one other thought about this. If the Cubs came along at a time when it was convenient for the owners to change course from Theo, I thank him for his contributions to the 2004 and 2007 teams and wish him well in the future. If the owners really wanted to keep him, but he decided to bolt for more money after crippling the team with Lackey's and Crawford's contracts with no near term help coming from the farm, then I still thank him for 2004 and 2007, but I don't wish him well in Chicago. If he bolted after making this mess and he is walking away from it, I don't think that is very honorable. I'd prefer to think that the Owners wanted him gone and he exited gracefully with. A handsome raise.[/quote']

 

I guess I don't see anything dishonorable in leaving the club for a significant promotion. If he left just to GM elsewhere then that would be a slap in the face. President of a club like the Cubs is a rare opportunity and something that needs to be taken very seriously. I think that ownership is right when they say that the clubs situation is being overblown by the media and reactionary fans. I know September was horrid but the club still has a very strong nucleus, and a farm system that will be paying off for years. It isn't in shambles. If he turned down a five year offer from Chicago only to see the team with a really good record by next year it might have been a squandered opportunity. They are in capable hands with LL and Cherington and have a good base of players who just need an attitude adjustment.

 

We will likely always differ on our view of how good Theo was for the Red Sox. Fortunately we won't have long to discuss it.

[a700hitter]

I guess I don't see anything dishonorable in leaving the club for a significant promotion. If he left just to GM elsewhere then that would be a slap in the face. President of a club like the Cubs is a rare opportunity and something that needs to be taken very seriously. I think that ownership is right when they say that the clubs situation is being overblown by the media and reactionary fans. I know September was horrid but the club still has a very strong nucleus, and a farm system that will be paying off for years. It isn't in shambles. If he turned down a five year offer from Chicago only to see the team with a really good record by next year it might have been a squandered opportunity. They are in capable hands with LL and Cherington and have a good base of players who just need an attitude adjustment.

 

We will likely always differ on our view of how good Theo was for the Red Sox. Fortunately we won't have long to discuss it.

If he shot out the lights in 2012 and brought home a championship, LL's contract would expire in 2012, maybe he would have gotten the promotion. LL is pretty old. If he didn't get fired or pushed out, then he left the Sox after soiling the bed.

[a700hitter]

I guess I don't see anything dishonorable in leaving the club for a significant promotion. If he left just to GM elsewhere then that would be a slap in the face. President of a club like the Cubs is a rare opportunity and something that needs to be taken very seriously. I think that ownership is right when they say that the clubs situation is being overblown by the media and reactionary fans. I know September was horrid but the club still has a very strong nucleus, and a farm system that will be paying off for years. It isn't in shambles. If he turned down a five year offer from Chicago only to see the team with a really good record by next year it might have been a squandered opportunity. They are in capable hands with LL and Cherington and have a good base of players who just need an attitude adjustment.

 

We will likely always differ on our view of how good Theo was for the Red Sox. Fortunately we won't have long to discuss it.

If he shot out the lights in 2012 and brought home a championship, LL's contract would expire in 2012, maybe he would have gotten the promotion. LL is pretty old. If he didn't get fired or pushed out, then he left the Sox after soiling the bed.

 

I thought you had said early on that you didn't think Theo would leave without righting the ship.

[example1]

If he shot out the lights in 2012 and brought home a championship' date=' LL's contract would expire in 2012, [b']maybe[/b] he would have gotten the promotion. LL is pretty old. If he didn't get fired or pushed out, then he left the Sox after soiling the bed.

 

Unless he could be assured of that I don't see why anyone would wait around. Something like 20m to be president of a noble and well-known franchise? If he wins in Chicago he's got a ticket to Cooperstown. I don't see this as a difficult calculation for him, regardless of the state of the Sox.

 

The public perception of this team is like a pendulum. Right now it is swinging strongly to the "sky is falling" end of things, but Theo and even most reasonable posters here know that this team is much better than "sky is falling". The club isn't in complete disarray, they have some things to take care of but can you name 5 other franchises that you would have more confidence in moving forward from this point?

[FredLynn]

Except for the ones where the team wouldn't have picked them if it weren't ultimately for his decision to let the FA go and retain the draft picks. In other words, he would get complete credit for all MLB success from the following group:

 

Vitek

Brentz

Ranaudo

Workman

Barnes

Swihart

Owens

Bradley Jr.,

 

And major partial credit--I would argue at least the credit that a group leader in a group project gets--for all the rest of their current farm system, given that he could have stopped the drafting of any of them at any time?

 

Seems like there's a lot of potential WAR for not very much money there.

 

There can be no credit as of right now (I am sure that you mean "credit for any future success") for any of these prospects. They may or may not work out; the odds are against them, as they are for any prospect. None have seen a single pitch in the majors.

[example1]

There can be no credit as of right now (I am sure that you mean "credit for any future success") for any of these prospects. They may or may not work out; the odds are against them' date=' as they are for any prospect. None have seen a single pitch in the majors.[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure that you understood from my post that the credit goes to any MLB success anyone from that group gets. It was clear both from the post and from the fact that all of those players are recent draft picks.

 

You and a700 are going to be really great posting buddies here. I'm starting to wonder if he just took at 2nd user name.

[SoxSport]

The latest rumors center around McNutt, the big RHd thrower, as a likely possibility.

Ranked no.2 in the Cubs farm system. He looks like a closer prospect--the Cubs have Marmol.

The no.1 prospect, Jackson, looks like a Kalish clone--the Cubs need him more than the Sox.

They may also want one more lower prospect besides McNutt.

[example1]

The latest rumors center around McNutt, the big RHd thrower, as a likely possibility.

Ranked no.2 in the Cubs farm system. He looks like a closer prospect--the Cubs have Marmol.

The no.1 prospect, Jackson, looks like a Kalish clone--the Cubs need him more than the Sox.

They may also want one more lower prospect besides McNutt.

 

 

Marmol is not a good closer.

[a700hitter]

I'm pretty sure that you understood from my post that the credit goes to any MLB success anyone from that group gets. It was clear both from the post and from the fact that all of those players are recent draft picks.

 

You and a700 are going to be really great posting buddies here. I'm starting to wonder if he just took at 2nd user name.

The best use of most prospects is as a trading chip. That's just a fact. A very small percentage of prospects make it big. The art is figuring out which ones to keep an develop. Bowden was not a keeper. It's looking like Dubront probably wasn't a keeper either.

[example1]

The best use of most prospects is as a trading chip. That's just a fact. A very small percentage of prospects make it big. The art is figuring out which ones to keep an develop. Bowden was not a keeper. It's looking like Dubront probably wasn't a keeper either.

 

Doubront still has some promise IMO. You're right about Bowden. You're probably right about prospects as trading chips too. The hard part is moving poor prospects for good players, rather than good prospects for good players. Nobody cried when they moved Masterson and Hagadone for V-Mart--few probably even remember they had them--but those guys would have been useful this year. It's a crap shoot. Do you even remember when Kelly Shoppach and George Kottaras were prospects? Nobody thought they would be any good, but they're good enough to be starting playoff games on good playoff teams.

 

They don't need to be stars to be worth a lot. Sometimes they are just to add depth. It doesn't do much good for the Sox to trade a Felix Doubront for a Ted Lilly or Aaron Harang.... the difference between them is mitigated by the extra cost of the veteran, IMO.

[a700hitter]

Doubront still has some promise IMO. You're right about Bowden. You're probably right about prospects as trading chips too. The hard part is moving poor prospects for good players, rather than good prospects for good players. Nobody cried when they moved Masterson and Hagadone for V-Mart--few probably even remember they had them--but those guys would have been useful this year. It's a crap shoot. Do you even remember when Kelly Shoppach and George Kottaras were prospects? Nobody thought they would be any good, but they're good enough to be starting playoff games on good playoff teams.

 

They don't need to be stars to be worth a lot. Sometimes they are just to add depth. It doesn't do much good for the Sox to trade a Felix Doubront for a Ted Lilly or Aaron Harang.... the difference between them is mitigated by the extra cost of the veteran, IMO.

Shoppach pretty much stinks, and kottaras took a long time to develop, and he's still meh. Let the crappy teams take the time to develop these guys that become less than mediocre major leaguers. In the meantime, if we can put them in a package to improve our team, we come out ahead. Keep the prospects who can hit the ground running at a high level/ star performance.

[zenjak]

Hey IPOT...you found us.

Regarding Ortiz: he should be offered a one year deal with a club option IMO. He did produce this year; he could produce next year too. If he cannot accept that, let him walk-anywhere he wants to go. The team is in rebuilding mode now and should be looking to get younger anyway. A DH who can also play in the field and not embarass himself seems like a good idea to me.

 

I think Oritz will have trouble finding a multiple year deal with equivalent $$ from many other teams. I like what he did for the team before, but if he's "not sure" he wants to come back, then Happy Trails. Too many questions about attitude for my comfort.

[seabeachfred]

I think Oritz will have trouble finding a multiple year deal with equivalent $$ from many other teams. I like what he did for the team before' date=' but if he's "not sure" he wants to come back, then Happy Trails. Too many questions about attitude for my comfort.[/quote']

 

Zenjak, you're here too....OK!!!! Pumpsie brought a lot of us over here though I was here four years ago for a time. Ortiz right? His attitude is starting to really bother me. Between his constant complaining about the strike zone to his fifth columnist quote about playing for the Yankees, well, I think maybe it might be a good idea for him to see how green it is in someone else's back yard. We need to move on, tell Wakefield and Varitek to hit the road and it might be the same f or David. Yes, his contributions to the team will easily put him in the Red Sox Hall of Fame but I get the impression that the marriage between him and the team has hit the rocks.

 

As for the name of the thread, how long before we are officially rid of Epstein once and for all. Needless to say I don't want him back.

[SoxSport]

I'm surfing around and reading a few things... It wouldn't surprise me if Lucchino holds out for Garza and gets him. I think he has Ricketts over a barrel with his fan base, who regard Epstein as the next coming of Christ.

[Cairns_Sox]

I'm surfing around and reading a few things... It wouldn't surprise me if Lucchino holds out for Garza and gets him. I think he has Ricketts over a barrel with his fan base' date=' who regard Epstein as the next coming of Christ.[/quote']

 

I'd love this to happen but I doubt they give up Garza. I think the Cubs hold the advantage as ownership surely couldnt bring him back as the GM could they? He would have to be an advisor to Cherington (sp?) which would be a demotion, which I'm sure he could go to MLB and walk to Chicago for nothing.

[jung]

I'd love this to happen but I doubt they give up Garza. I think the Cubs hold the advantage as ownership surely couldnt bring him back as the GM could they? He would have to be an advisor to Cherington (sp?) which would be a demotion, which I'm sure he could go to MLB and walk to Chicago for nothing.

 

I think the whole thing is comical myself. The team fell apart right underneath their noses and their response was things like headphones and a day on the yacht. Now they are playing hard ball with Chicago who already had a deal ready for Theo. This has JH's junk yard dog LL written all over it. This franchise is such a mess.

 

Chicago wants it to be cash, who knows what these screw ups are holding out for but at best they get a prospect, maybe two.

[a700hitter]

Garza's contract is no bargain, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Cubs wanted to rid themselves of it. The Sox are probably trying to get them to eat some of the contract. I think the Sox have stronger hand here than most people assume, because Theo apparently wants to bring some of his people with him.

[SoxSport]

Ricketts seems to value Epstein. The Cubs fans value Epstein. Epstein is a "star."

 

He's under contract to the Red Sox. The Red Sox have all the cards. They should insist on a major leaguer for Epstein. The Cubs minor leaguers suck. I would hold out for Garza. In return, I would allow Epstein to take one or two people with him acceptable to both sides. Take it or leave it, Mr Ricketts.

 

The Cubs posture is the Red Sox have to get rid of Epstein. Nonsense. He's under contract. So he sits out next year, and they pay him $2 million. Big deal. Nice bonus for screwing up the last two years, and wasting a lot of money.

[SoxSport]

I think Oritz will have trouble finding a multiple year deal with equivalent $$ from many other teams. I like what he did for the team before' date=' but if he's "not sure" he wants to come back, then Happy Trails. Too many questions about attitude for my comfort.[/quote']

 

I think they will let Ortiz walk. He's talked his way out of Boston. They have Youks waiting in the wings to DH. What they need is another RHd power bat like Cuddyer, along with Youks. Guys who can play in the field, too.

 

It's time for the Sox to give their best minor leaguers a shot and get younger: that means Kalish, Iglesias and Middlebrook. Too much tired blood on this team--not enough opportunities for young players.

 

The Yankees don't want Ortiz--they have a lineup full of ageing DHs they can't get rid of.

[mvp 78]

Zenjak, you're here too....OK!!!! Pumpsie brought a lot of us over here though I was here four years ago for a time. Ortiz right? His attitude is starting to really bother me. Between his constant complaining about the strike zone to his fifth columnist quote about playing for the Yankees, well, I think maybe it might be a good idea for him to see how green it is in someone else's back yard. We need to move on, tell Wakefield and Varitek to hit the road and it might be the same f or David. Yes, his contributions to the team will easily put him in the Red Sox Hall of Fame but I get the impression that the marriage between him and the team has hit the rocks.

 

As for the name of the thread, how long before we are officially rid of Epstein once and for all. Needless to say I don't want him back.

 

2004 bandwagon fans, get off my lawn. Your opinion doesn't matter.

[alphilip77]

Cubs FO is being a bunch of faggots. Their organization is s*** and they should be thanking us for even giving them the privilege to negotiate. Dealing with them is like trying to haggle with a poor, fat kid who has a holographic Charizard and that's it. They'll never be able to get another holo card again but they're being asswipes. f***.

[Palodios]

I agree. Theo is the equivalent of a holographic Charizard.

[jung]

Come to think of it what could be more comical than the Sox and Cubs wrestling over a deal. I wonder why WWF has not been fighting for the rights to televise.