2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[User Name]

It's a legitimate comparison. There are truckloads of guys to are very good ball strikers with a golf club, but they can't make the tour, for a variety of reasons. They either lack the ability to read the greens and putt well, or the ability to manage the course intelligently, or, or, or....there are a lot of things that separate the pros from the rest of the golfing world.

 

Check this guy out....

 

http://chuckthehitman.com/

 

He can toss a ball behind his back, turn around and hit it down the middle, before it touches the ground, with a driver, and he can do it consistently.

 

Can't make the tour.

 

Yes but my point was that he specifically referred to baseball players who, mind you, already play a professional sport for a living, not making it pro as a golfer. Not only is that a very small sample, but you're including a condition (being a baseball player) that would likely devoid them of the time necessary to improve to the pro level at golf.

 

The example does not use a level playing field.

[ORS]

What the golf pros can do is amazing even to really good golfers. My wife's uncle was really good golfer. During his working career' date=' he played a couple of rounds every weekend. He'd play 9 during the week when he got the chance. He retired early and played every day. He was never happy with his game even though he was a scratch golfer with a ton of trophies. He told me a story about watching a pro practice. He told me that the guy's caddie stood 150 yds away and held out a club as a target. The pro hit a 7 or 8 iron and he hit dozens of balls. He said that the consistency of the accuracy was unbelievable. He was not a man prone to overstatement. He was the type of guy to tell you that he played lousy that day and then you'd find out that he shot a 78.[/quote']

I used to golf quite a bit when I lived in Florida before we had our three children. Now, I'm a bit more casual with golf. When I was in Florida, I went to the Bay Hill tournament in Orlando a couple of years in a row. I'd get the whole event pass, and went on Tuesday/Wednesday to watch them in their practice rounds. It's insane how good these guys are. The practice rounds are reall fun to watch because there's no pressure on and you can see just how good these guys really are without the stress of contention on them. They aren't aiming for the green, they are aiming for 3 foot circles on the green where the ball will end up by the hole.

 

I watched Ernie Els hit 3 different shots from the same spot in the fairway, all with a different flight path as he was trying 3 different shot techniques to figure out which would work best for him in the tournament. All 3 would have made a casual golfer very happy, but wasn't even interested in how good a shot each was, but more concerned about learning how the ball reacted on the green for each one.

[User Name]

I had the fortune of seeing two hole-in-ones in one day a couple of months ago. Played the lottery. Didn't win.

[a700hitter]

Baseball players have a lot of down time, especially starting pitchers. Historically, they filled their time golfing or fishing. Today, there is a lot of electronic gagetry to keep them busy. Tons of baseball players have been avid golfers, and many are washed up as baseball players by their early 30's, certainly young enough to be a professional golfer. None have been able to do it. Zero. They can't master the game. Could they have mastered the game if they grew up playing it and training at it? I am sure that several could have done it, but starting as adults, they can never refine their skill enough to be consistent enough to compete with the pros.

[User Name]

Baseball players have a lot of down time' date=' especially starting pitchers. Historically, they filled their time golfing or fishing. Today, there is a lot of electronic gagetry to keep them busy. Tons of baseball players have been avid golfers, and many are washed up as baseball players by their early 30's, certainly young enough to be a professional golfer. None have been able to do it. Zero. [b']They can't master the game. Could they have mastered the game if they grew up playing it and training at it? I am sure that several could have done it, but starting as adults, they can never refine their skill enough to be consistent enough to compete with the pros.[/b]

 

The D rests.

[a700hitter]

I used to golf quite a bit when I lived in Florida before we had our three children. Now, I'm a bit more casual with golf. When I was in Florida, I went to the Bay Hill tournament in Orlando a couple of years in a row. I'd get the whole event pass, and went on Tuesday/Wednesday to watch them in their practice rounds. It's insane how good these guys are. The practice rounds are reall fun to watch because there's no pressure on and you can see just how good these guys really are without the stress of contention on them. They aren't aiming for the green, they are aiming for 3 foot circles on the green where the ball will end up by the hole.

 

I watched Ernie Els hit 3 different shots from the same spot in the fairway, all with a different flight path as he was trying 3 different shot techniques to figure out which would work best for him in the tournament. All 3 would have made a casual golfer very happy, but wasn't even interested in how good a shot each was, but more concerned about learning how the ball reacted on the green for each one.

It's mind boggling what the pros can do. I'd play once in a while with my wife's uncle. He was a huge step down from a pro, but a scratch golfer, and he would do things that just weren't possible for me. Rather than play up and over on a dogleg hole, he'd take out an iron and whack the ball over the trees and the ball would land on the other side of the dogleg in the fairway right in front of the green. I would lose three or four balls just trying that.

[jung]

If those players decided to take up golf for a living and practice as much as they do baseball, why couldn't they?

 

Why couldn't they? Well possibly because the inherent basic skill sets that make them great hitters of the baseball simply do not make them great strikers of the golf ball.

 

A great hitter of the baseball must be able to see and recognize the spin of the pitched baseball. He must gather and process that data very rapidly and then be able to react quickly enough to get the head of the bat in the right place. Those are all great attributes relative to hitting the pitched baseball that help him not a lick with regard to hitting the stationary golf ball well enough to compete at the highest levels of the game.

 

To go back to where I was earlier, people have different inherent skill sets which they can choose to hone to an extremely high level. You have to have the skill set that matches up to the particular sport to begin with and then must hone it to a high level.

 

As anybody who has played both sports even at the poor level of a rank amateur will tell you, the baseball swing and the golf swing are two entirely different animals. Successfully executing one is no guarantee of successfully executing the other and the higher the level of performance desired the less the likelihood of one skill set helping you in the other activity.

 

Rick Rhoden, a pitcher, probably has enjoyed more success as a golfer than any other baseball player having had at least some level of success on the PGA Senior tour. He has never won a senior event but has a few top ten finishes. He was never able to earn a regular tour card.

 

Ex-niners quarterback, John Brodie enjoyed similar success on the senior tour never having been good enough to make it onto the regular tour. Crossovers are rare for any sport but I don't think you will find more successful crossovers from baseball to any other sport at the highest level of competition and simply don't see a way to prove that hitting a baseball well has translated into or will translate into success pursuing any other sporting activity at the highest level of competition. Without being able to prove that a baseball player can crossover and dominate sports other than very similar stick and ball sports (cricket and softball) I just don't see any way to make the comment (hardest thing to do in sports) stick.

 

I also suspect that if forced to perform at even nominal levels in some sports, baseball players would find the basic requirements for those sports more difficult than hitting a baseball because the inherent skill set they have is simply no help in the other sport. They can hone till hell freezes over in that case and not having had the basic skill set to begin with, it simply won't matter. You can substitute talent for skill set if you want to. You have to have the talent for a particular sport and can then choose to hone it to a high level. However the less talent that you have that is well matched to a particular sport, the less likely that you will be able to simply supplement your ill matched talents with hard work.

 

That they might have or could have made it as pro golfers is meaningless. There is no proof that the inherent skill set that makes them great hitters of the baseball would make them great strikers of the golf ball. If they were lucky enough to have made it in both sports it will have been because they had enough of the required skill sets for either to make it and then chose to hone one over the other, not because the one skill set was sufficient to allow them to perform at the highest levels in both sports.

 

If you want to look at successful crossovers since the two golf crossovers that were able to make any headway at all are John Brodie and Rick Rhoden maybe there is a case to be made from throwing some sort of ball being more suggestive of success playing golf than hitting a baseball would be.

[Bellhorn04]

Meanwhile Ryan Lavarnway just crushed a home run off Scott Baker in the first inning of the first spring game.

[jung]

Wish they were televising today's game. Sat, Sun and Monday games are the first being aired I think.

[User Name]

Why couldn't they? Well possibly because the inherent basic skill sets that make them great hitters of the baseball simply do not make them great strikers of the golf ball.

 

That they might have or could have made it as pro golfers is meaningless. There is no proof that the inherent skill set that makes them great hitters of the baseball would make them great strikers of the golf ball. If they were lucky enough to have made it in both sports it will have been because they had enough of the required skill sets for either to make it and then chose to hone one over the other, not because the one skill set was sufficient to allow them to perform at the highest levels in both sports.

 

What i mean was (and i posted it above) is that in similar situations, starting at the same age, although the "inherent skills" are different, the chances of either the baseball player or the golf player succeeding in each other's sport is essentially the same. Hard work comprises 80% of success. As you mention above, it's not a required skills thing, but it's not luck either.

 

The baseball player likely can't crossover because it's 100 times more different to succeed at a sport they are barely scratching on as an adult.

[User Name]

Meanwhile Ryan Lavarnway just crushed a home run off Scott Baker in the first inning of the first spring game.

 

I made this prediction in another thread: Salty will get traded because Lavarnway forces the Sox' hand.

[jung]

It would be great if Lavarnway did in fact force the Sox hand like by next year. That would be indicative of a rate of progress that few would predict for him but would be most helpful to the Sox I would think.

[User Name]

By all accounts, he is a finished product offensively, so it's all about his D coming around.

[a700hitter]

Red Sox GM Ben Cherington joined WEEI's Dennis & Callahan show and said the decision of whether Jose Iglesias breaks camp with the team will be up to manager Bobby Valentine. "In a perfect world, [iglesias] would probably get some more time in Triple-A," the GM said (via Jerry Spar).

[seabeachfred]

Baseball players have a lot of down time' date=' especially starting pitchers. Historically, they filled their time golfing or fishing. Today, there is a lot of electronic gagetry to keep them busy. Tons of baseball players have been avid golfers, and many are washed up as baseball players by their early 30's, certainly young enough to be a professional golfer. None have been able to do it. Zero. They can't master the game. Could they have mastered the game if they grew up playing it and training at it? I am sure that several could have done it, but starting as adults, they can never refine their skill enough to be consistent enough to compete with the pros.[/quote']

 

One point we should all keep in mind. You can hit a ball poorly in baseball and wind up with a bloop hit, but if you do that in golf you're looking at a sure double bogie. I know that all too well from sad experience Ted.

[redsoxfan3]

Lavarnway hit his first homer in his first at bat in Spring Training. Man do I wish this guy was able to catch defensively at the major league level.

[seabeachfred]

Lavarnway hit his first homer in his first at bat in Spring Training. Man do I wish this guy was able to catch defensively at the major league level.

 

By June he will be ready and Salty might have to wonder about his job. Either way, in my opinion Ryan Lavarnway is the next great Red Sox RH power hitter. We haven't developed one for quite awhile. And Salty is not that great a defensive catcher himself.

[redsoxfan3]

By June he will be ready and Salty might have to wonder about his job. Either way' date=' in my opinion Ryan Lavarnway is the next great Red Sox RH power hitter. We haven't developed one for quite awhile. And Salty is not that great a defensive catcher himself.[/quote']

 

I agree with you. Here is the way I look at it. Salty is not that great of a defensive catcher like you said, but he is probably the better option than Lavarnway. Then again you have to factor in the offensive production. Lavarnway is better offensively. I know some will get on me about how he does not have much Major League experience, but like you said he is the next great RH power hitter for this team. I agree with you on that. I want to see him as our everyday starter at some point in the near future, whether that is this summer or the start of next year. Let's just hope he proves himself in AAA if he starts the year there.

 

I really want Middlebrooks, Lavarnway, and Iglesias to all crack the starting lineup by the start of next year. Realistically, that may not happen. If Youk plays crappy this year and Middlebrooks is tearing it up in AAA, then why not give him a shot too?

[User Name]

Why not have the best of both worlds and let him work on his defense a bit and become the regular catcher at mid-season or to start '13?

 

He's not going anywhere.

[jung]

It will not take much for Lavarnway to be a better defensive option that Salty. As long as he develops to a reasonable level at AAA then bring him at that point and Salty becomes trade fodder.

[Dojji]

You know who might play himself into consideration that no one's mentioned yet?

 

Jeremy Hazelbaker. You look at his numbers, he's not that far off. Legit elite speed too. Realistically he's probably 36 months away, but he's played well enough in AA should get some attention. He is, as they say, "in range."

[jacksonianmarch]

Hazelbaker is interesting, but not a prospect to watch for IMO. His OBP last yr was fine for a speedster, but look at his BABIP. He had a .348BABIP last yr and only a .270 batting average. In 2010, he hit .269 with a BABIP over .350. When he moves up the ladder and equalizes in the .300 range, his BA is going to be in the .220s and his OBP around .300. He's an intriguing backup until he figures out how to not K.

[Dojji]

BABIP doesn't equalize like that.

 

High BABIP isn't that surprising for a guy with legit speed. He's got the legs to beat some hits out. if it's been that consistently high, maybe it just stays high.

 

What that tells me is that he makes a lot of sharp contact and legs out some infield hits. Neither is surprising given his general profile. And both are very useful. Frankly, what seems to be holding back Hazelbaker, is his reads defensively -- that and the fact that we have an elite 5 tool CF and a 20 mil contract in his 2 positions here.

 

I agree that Hazelbaker isn't a top prospect, but he's a very interesting dark horse candidate because of his potential roleplaying utility. He's a guy, like Youks, who could legitimately start out on the bench and work his way from there.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's been high for 2 yrs. the likelihood he stays that high is zero. He needs to start making contact or he never makes the bigs. That simple

[seabeachfred]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that guy a left handed hitter? We already seem to be up to our sweetbreads in those kind of outfielders. Now give me a solid RH power hhitting outfielder and we can talk turkey. Anyway, let me know if he is a lefty.

[The Boomer]

Correct me if I'm wrong' date=' but isn't that guy a left handed hitter? We already seem to be up to our sweetbreads in those kind of outfielders. Now give me a solid RH power hhitting outfielder and we can talk turkey. Anyway, let me know if he is a lefty.[/quote']

 

He is.

[SoxSport]

I noticed the Sox are playing a doubleheader against college teams today. I guess they've played B.C. the first game, or early, the last few years. But why? Why waste games against college teams? Isn't spring training supposed to be serious? I mean, getting yourself ready to be competitive again against major league teams. If the Sox are getting serious about spring training, one thing they can do is stop playing college teams. Spring training is not for fun. I'm thinking about that embarrassing first series in Texas last year.

[jacksonianmarch]

They are trying to continue a tradition that is also a recruiting point for the University. My guess is BC does something for the sox to pay back this benefit

[seabeachfred]

I noticed the Sox are playing a doubleheader against college teams today. I guess they've played B.C. the first game' date=' or early, the last few years. But why? Why waste games against college teams? Isn't spring training supposed to be serious? I mean, getting yourself ready to be competitive again against major league teams. If the Sox are getting serious about spring training, one thing they can do is stop playing college teams. Spring training is not for fun. I'm thinking about that embarrassing first series in Texas last year.[/quote']

 

As Jacko said Sox Sport, it is kind of a tradition andm besides, it is only the first two contests. The rest will be against real Major League teams. Consider this, though, it will afford some of our young pitching prospects to get in some needed work in game situations where they might have the opportunity in a week or so when minor leaguers are reassigned to minor league camp. Besides, we've done this for years and it didn't hurt us in 2004 and 2007, for instance. I don't think playing them last year had much to do with our bad collapse. After today it is all over with the collegiates and we can really get down to business.

[SCM33]

You know who might play himself into consideration that no one's mentioned yet?

 

Jeremy Hazelbaker. You look at his numbers, he's not that far off. Legit elite speed too. Realistically he's probably 36 months away, but he's played well enough in AA should get some attention. He is, as they say, "in range."

 

Another swing and a miss Dojji. No chance.