2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[jung]

What do people think it means when the recommendation on a player is not to bring him to a major market team? Do you think that means he has not gotten jaywalking down to the art form that us big city dwellers have gotten it down to?

 

It means that just these sorts of issues....where he bats.....what other players think of him are going to be roadblocks to his success. Were you actually comfortable hearing Carl talk about the effect other players had on him when they commented on his position in the batting order? As uncomfortable as I was hearing it I don't doubt his sincerity. So you wanna' bury him for good.....you want to really feel the weight of that $20M a season. Go ahead....be my guest....bury Carl in the lineup. This was one of the all time whopper dumbest signings ever. We just as soon eat it to its full measure. What the hell else is new.

[User Name]

I don't think that's a good approach though. Besides, it doesn't have to be "burying him in the lineup". They would employ his considerable skills to to lengthen the lineup. Let the media spin it like that.

 

Besides, if he's setting the world on fire and stealing bases left and right and Salty and Aviles have career years, the media can spin it as it being a direct results of Carl's selfless acceptance of the 6 or 7 spot.

 

Also, i just don't understand the face-heel turn. You've been ragging on the selfishness of the players from months, yet don't want Crawford to bite the bullet and take one for the team like a professional team player should.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[jung]

Another convenience. Please don't ignore the things I post because its convenient. You just force me to repeat myself.

 

Carl is from all indications not dogging it.....just the opposite.

 

This is not an issue of a kind of entitlement that that may be polarizing that certain star players might insist upon. This is not certain players deciding that games they are not directly active in end in the 7th inning. This is a guy telling you why he should never have been brought to a big market team. This is a guy telling you what will make it hard for him to succeed although no player really wants to do that which makes it even more believable in Carl's case.

 

Now he is here. Heck lets ask him to bat from the other side of the plate. Take one for the team Carl.

 

So I am not doing an about face at all. You are choosing to read what you want to read and ignore what you want to ignore.

[The Boomer]

I don't think that's a good approach though. Besides, it doesn't have to be "burying him in the lineup". They would employ his considerable skills to to lengthen the lineup. Let the media spin it like that.

 

Besides, if he's setting the world on fire and stealing bases left and right and Salty and Aviles have career years, the media can spin it as it being a direct results of Carl's selfless acceptance of the 6 or 7 spot.

 

Also, i just don't understand the face-heel turn. You've been ragging on the selfishness of the players from months, yet don't want Crawford to bite the bullet and take one for the team like a professional team player should.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

This all comes down to: what is CC's role on the 2012 Red Sox?

 

Is he:

a. The get on-base and run wild guy (that implies he should leadoff)

b. The table setter (i.e., hitting second)

c. The middle-of-the-order bat (hitting 3-5)

d. Leading off the second order (sixth)

e. Mopping up the damage the power bats precipitate (seventh)

f. The wrap-around bat (ninth)

 

You can come up with a case to put him pretty much anywhere, but the important thing to me is that you pick a role for him and let him do it. Good teams play better when everyone knows their role. This was always my confusion about the CC deal in the first place.

 

I think there are pluses and minuses to every one of the roles above, but I also believe that CC is an elite baseball player and he can make any of these work if he can get behind it. He's being paid like that, at any rate.

[example1]

Quite a discussion about Crawford's place in the order. It's a complete cop out, but I'm glad I don't have to make that decision. Batting 2nd is probably where he's most comfortable, but the arguments about his OBP etc., make a lot of sense and are really all that should matter.

 

If Valentine is going to be using a lot more bunting and hitting and running than Francona did, then Crawford might be suitable for the "wasted out" position in the 2nd spot with Pedroia, Gonzalez and Youkilis aptly driving in that run after him.

 

The cop out is that I want Crawford to hit wherever he's going to do his best. I'm not his manager, have never met him, and don't know where that is.

[User Name]

Another convenience. Please don't ignore the things I post because its convenient. You just force me to repeat myself.

 

Carl is from all indications not dogging it.....just the opposite.

 

This is not an issue of a kind of entitlement that that may be polarizing that certain star players might insist upon. This is not certain players deciding that games they are not directly active in end in the 7th inning. This is a guy telling you why he should never have been brought to a big market team. This is a guy telling you what will make it hard for him to succeed although no player really wants to do that which makes it even more believable in Carl's case.

 

Now he is here. Heck lets ask him to bat from the other side of the plate. Take one for the team Carl.

 

So I am not doing an about face at all. You are choosing to read what you want to read and ignore what you want to ignore.

Not convenient at all. It's the truth.

 

A player telling the manager where he "needs" to bat is prima-donna attitude. My fandom of Crawford doesn't blind me to that fact. Crawford wasn't dogging it, which i agree with, but he simply wasn't productive. We've spoken about the culture of this team changing, and this is part of the problem. Forget about comfort zones and all that ******** and force these guys making millions of dollars to play hard and forget about the rest. The rest is up to the manager.

 

He's being paid 20 mill per season to win ballgames, not to play manager.

 

If the best lineup for this team has Crawford hitting 7th, then he should hit 7th, just like JD Drew when he was the best-paid player on the team and had hit 3rd or 6th all of his career.

 

The Red Sox need to take a hard stance with this type of nonsense. No hand outs to anyone. Production over coddling.

 

It's just not reasonable to think of moving a guy who is extremely productive around like Pedroia, for a guy who in his best years isn't as good as he is.

 

It's just not, and money shouldn't be a factor in the argument either.

[a700hitter]

Once again, this is probably a brain fart, but why not bat Pedrioa at cleanup regularly? He's hit there some (not a lot, I know), but there's no rule that says your best power bat needs to be there. Just one of your best hitters.

 

CF Ells

LF Crawford

1B A-Gonz

2B Pedroia

DH Ortiz

3B Youk

RF Ross/Sweeney

SS Aviles

C Salty

 

We are very LHH heavy at the top of the order, but Crawford is the only one who has a massive dropoff in his splits vs. LHP.

Wouldn't pitchers pitch around AGon who can beat them with a HR and pitch to the singles hitter instead?

[jung]

Whether money should be the argument doesn't matter. Money is always an issue. You can live in some fantasy world where it does not matter but it ignores the truth of the issue. It always matters.

 

As I said earlier I could buy 6th but even that seems a misuse of Carls talents. If they explain it to him and leave him in that spot then I can maybe see Carl possibly performing under those circumstances.

 

As for taking a just suck it up and take it approach with Carl that is exactly one of the reasons why they never should have brought him here. He is not that kind of tough. Never gave anybody any indication that he was that kind of tough....did not belong with a major market team. The Sox in their infinite wisdom decided to ignore all of that. The ultimate over-utilization of numbers without any consideration for the flesh and blood body responsible for the numbers.

 

I think Carl is capable of producing at least the numbers one might have expected as ridiculous as those are for $21M per year. However I think the chance of his doing so is drastically reduced if he is down there in the 7, 8 or 9 holes and the 6 hole may be a problem for him as well. Looking at his 2011 OBP and OPS as a means of placing him in the lineup ignores who Carl is. But heck....he's a baseball player right. All baseball players are is compilations of numbers.....stats. I don't buy the argument that his career stats say he belongs 7, 8 or 9 in this lineup because I can read. All you have to do is look at his advanced stats by year at Fangraphs. He fell off the charts in 2011.

 

Worse than that....he has made it obvious that he does not belong on a major market team. Even if he produces from the 6 hole, then he will be criticized for not producing 2 hole numbers. He obviously handles criticism so well. Then again this is the Red Sox. We hire translators at the drop of a hat. We could hire a sports phycologist just for Carl. Could have his couch right there in the dugout. This is a losing situation for the Sox and it is only going to be a matter of how much they lose.

 

One truism that crosses sports lines is "horses for courses". We want to put our money on a horse that is not a mudder while the rain is pouring down and then we want to blame the horse for not showing well.

 

I would like them to have an opportunity to get the most out of this they can and frankly I don't think what we think matters in the overall anyway. I very much suspect that if he is healthy and able to play, V will put him in the 2 hole. As it is now, Carl has almost forced V's hand. The only way V will be able to put him down there in the 6 hole will be with an explanation of what is expected from there and a commitment to support his effort from there. Even with that I think Carl will simply not get it. The media will attack him insisting on an answer to questions of what he thinks about it and he does not have the media presence nor the ability to hide his feelings. I suspect that unless the Sox are going to play him while he is recovering, another thing I would prefer them not do, there is no way V will be able to explain 7, 8 or 9 to Carl.

 

The whole thing is a giant cluster **** with no happy solutions. No wonder we get 108 years of futility and 2 years of triumph.

[User Name]

Those misused talents brought about a sub-700 OPS last year, which is abysmal.

 

I understand that this is not BV's or CC's fault, but this is the hand they've been dealt.

 

The "money is always an issue" thing is overplayed. It's not living in fantasy land to point out JD Drew hitting 8th while being the highest paid player on the team.

 

If he hits, he could hit 2nd. If he doesn't, he shouldn't.

[jung]

If he hits, he could hit 2nd. If he doesn't, he shouldn't.

 

This has not been your argument to this point. Your argument to this point has been that he should be placed 7th based on his 2011 stat line or I guess actually that he should be placed 7th in this lineup based on his career stat line and that he should have to prove himself worthy of the 2 hole.

 

I don't agree based on 2011 being an anomaly to his career production.

 

Others are arguing that he should go to the 2 hole if he is healthy and given the opportunity to prove he can't succeed from there. I agree with that position and would leave him in the 2 hole until there is simply no doubt that he can not get it done.

 

I don't think using Drew here as an example makes much sense either.

[User Name]

This has not been your argument to this point. Your argument to this point has been that he should be placed 7th based on his 2011 stat line or I guess actually that he should be placed 7th in this lineup based on his career stat line and that he should have to prove himself worthy of the 2 hole.

 

That has not been my argument to this point. The difference is i equate him to the player currently occupying the 2nd spot, which is Dustin Pedroia. I have said time and time again that the reason why he shouldn't bat second, is because the guy batting second is a better hitter, meaning that in essence, he shouldn't.

 

Moving the better player based on the assumed comeback of a player who is inferior anyways makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

While we're at it, let's give Melancon the closer's spot, because he closed last year, and he prefers closing, even though when both are healthy, Bailey is clearly the better pitcher.

 

Who's twisting words here?

 

I don't agree based on 2011 being an anomaly to his career production.

 

Others are arguing that he should go to the 2 hole if he is healthy and given the opportunity to prove he can't succeed from there. I agree with that position and would leave him in the 2 hole until there is simply no doubt that he can not get it done.

 

Not given 2011. Given his career. He is not a better hitter in any aspect other than raw speed than Dustin Pedroia, and he's not good enough to justify moving the only real source of RH power out of the cleanup spot. Why play him there until he fails and then try to move him? As Boomer said, he needs to be given a role and stick to it.

 

You're talking about not wrecking his confidence, then present a position where if he doesn't succeed, the course of action would be something that messes with his confidence.

 

Also, people overvalue Crawford's abilities massively. He's not better than any hitter occupying the top five spots. And that's not a knock on Crawford, it was a stupid move by the FO because he honestly doesn't fit on the team.

 

I don't think using Drew here as an example makes much sense either.

 

Because it doesn't help your argument? It's a perfect comparison.

 

Guy comes to Boston making big bucks being expected to bat in the middle of the order. Struggles out of the gate, settles in the lower half of the lineup and excels (when healthy) but never "lives up" to his contract.

 

The armchair psychology about Crawford need not apply here. What matters is production, and on that note, on his best year, Crawford is not better than Pedroia on an average year.

[mvp 78]

Unfortunately' date=' that's the way the cookie crumbles. In your scenario, i'd hit him behind Ross (7th) who can also run, and let him run wild because the two hitters behind him would be weaker.[/quote']

 

You can't say "maximize his utility" in one argument and "that's the way the cookie crumbles" in another. Batting him 7th is wasting his utility as no one would knock him in and you'd habe Youk and Ortiz on in front of him.

 

Considering Ells' season last year, it's not a lock to bat him 1st. Why have your best hitter lead off? If he continues his power surge, he'd be better hitting 3rd.

[Emmz]

And Crawford isnt a lock to have a comeback season.

[mvp 78]

The whole thing is a giant cluster **** with no happy solutions. No wonder we get 108 years of futility and 2 years of triumph.

 

So no WS until after 2028?

[Bellhorn04]

Crawford loves the #2 spot' date=' hates leadoff and doesn't like batting low because it seems to evaporate his confidence. This is not something to take lightly. Bat him second; he likes it and has had success batting there. [b']Pedroia can bat anywhere as he has proved in the past, success at leadoff and even cleanup.[/b] We have a big investment in Carl and we need his head cleared and need to have people to have confidence in him. Confidence is enormously important for a hitter. Without he you don't have much. Crawford needs to hit second.

 

Gotta correct one thing there Fred. In 2009 when Ellsbury when struggling they tried Pedroia at leadoff. He hit 219/287/333 in 116 PA and they got him the hell out of there. Pedroia made some pointed comments about how batting leadoff changed his hitting approach and how he had trouble adapting to it.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm sure the genius Bobby V can figure out this lineup stuff without breaking a sweat.

[mvp 78]

Hey Carl, would you rather bat 1st or 7th?

 

That's how I'd get him to be ok with it.

[mvp 78]

I'm sure the genius Bobby V can figure out this lineup stuff without breaking a sweat.

 

His rotation and bp is already set. I heard he's working on the lineups for May though. What a slacker!

 

In all honesty, it will be interesting to see how/if his lineups differ from Tito's.

[Bellhorn04]

His rotation and bp is already set. I heard he's working on the lineups for May though. What a slacker!

 

In all honesty, it will be interesting to see how/if his lineups differ from Tito's.

 

Yes, it will be.

[jung]

This has gotten to be a ridiculous discussion. What the hell, we will just line everybody up based on their Advanced Stats and that will be the batting order.

 

In fact who needs a Manager or a GM for that matter. All you need is a computer an adding machine and an accountant and that can be your Manager and Baseball Operations. Simple. Probably what some would like to think anyway.

 

I think Pedrioa should be batting 3rd in this lineup with Crawford batting in front of him because of Pedroia's stats and Crawford's stats. If you take the one anomaly of 2011 off the charts Crawford's OBP is better than Pedroia's but Pedroia's OPS is better than Crawford's and Crawford has more speed than Pedroia.

 

I think Ells should remain batting 1st because of all his stats from 2011 the power numbers are most suspect to me and Ells is the most natural lead off man the Sox have. Although if Pedroia had to lead off and Ells bat 3d that might not be terrible except putting Ells 3rd forces him to produce power numbers. MLB is littered with guys that simply could not produce power numbers when their position in the batting order demanded power numbers. MLB is also littered with guys that produced great power numbers for one year. By stats alone really Ells should go to 3rd but that not only forces him to produce power numbers but forces Pedey to the top of the batting order unless the Sox do something like stick Avilas at the top of the order. Frankly even that makes more sense than sticking Crawford at the bottom of the order. Least we forget looking at stats alone is likely how Crawford got on this team in the first place. I don't see how being an absolutist pays off when you actually have the job. If I look at these guys and try to cobble together a line up that gets the Sox the best chance of a good result for the money they have invested. That is based on the stats in an absolute sense and the player 's that produce those stats.

 

The only thing I do agree with is that he does not belong here. There is actually no place to put him that works against his $21M salary for one thing. Oh I forgot, money should not count.

 

In addition Crawford is a speed guy on a team that plays in a park that historically does not reward speed enough to really make two speed guys at the top of the order make sense. Unless they brought in night crews and moved the fences back and found the old Astroturf surface from Houston and laid that down, regardless of the fact that Tito did not use Crawford properly last year this is still not a park that will ever really reward a speed oriented team enough to make a bunch of speed guys pay off. Nothing about Fenway makes it a speed park.

 

By the way, the Sox have one year to figure this out. They either have to make Crawford attractive enough to somebody to get him off this team or very likely lose Ells cause he is arb eligible for 2013 and then he is a free agent in 2014. So if you think that Crawford's pre-2011 stats don't merit his batting 2nd on this team AND have some method for restoring him to at least some stature that allows the Sox to pay some money and move his contract then prepare to lose Ells. The Sox would be out of their minds to keep Crawford and Ells on this team together paying two guys over $20M a year to play outfield positions so that they can continue this ridiculous argument internally for another 4 years after that. If 2012 proves anything it is that there are limits to what the Sox are willing to spend in player payroll regardless of what LL has to say. There are limits to their willingness to pay for their mistakes into the foreseeable future as well. Paying 3 guys and maybe 4 by then over $20M a year to play in the field when you really will need more pitching is the same sort of nonsense that produced the 12-8 box score teams of Sox yesteryear.

 

So ya' better find a way to restore Crawford because you are either going to have to rely on him for the next five years or move him before 2014.

 

That will be the next argument. Unless the Sox pay both of them they are cheap bastards and should be hung by the fingernails until they agree to keep them both.

[jung]

This has gotten to be a ridiculous discussion. What the hell, we will just line everybody up based on their Advanced Stats and that will be the batting order.

 

In fact who needs a Manager or a GM for that matter. All you need is a computer an adding machine and an accountant and that can be your Manager and Baseball Operations. Simple. Probably what some would like to think anyway.

 

I think Pedrioa should be batting 3rd in this lineup with Crawford batting in front of him because of Pedroia's stats and Crawford's stats. If you take the one anomaly of 2011 off the charts Crawford's OBP is better than Pedroia's but Pedroia's OPS is better than Crawford's and Crawford has more speed than Pedroia.

 

I think Ells should remain batting 1st because of all his stats from 2011 the power numbers are most suspect to me and Ells is the most natural lead off man the Sox have. Although if Pedroia had to lead off and Ells bat 3d that might not be terrible except putting Ells 3rd forces him to produce power numbers. MLB is littered with guys that simply could not produce power numbers when their position in the batting order demanded power numbers. MLB is also littered with guys that produced great power numbers for one year. By stats alone really Ells should go to 3rd but that not only forces him to produce power numbers but forces Pedey to the top of the batting order unless the Sox do something like stick Avilas at the top of the order. Frankly even that makes more sense than sticking Crawford at the bottom of the order. Least we forget looking at stats alone is likely how Crawford got on this team in the first place. I don't see how being an absolutist pays off when you actually have the job. If I look at these guys and try to cobble together a line up that gets the Sox the best chance of a good result for the money they have invested. That is based on the stats in an absolute sense and the player 's that produce those stats.

 

The only thing I do agree with is that he does not belong here. There is actually no place to put him that works against his $21M salary for one thing. Oh I forgot, money should not count.

 

In addition Crawford is a speed guy on a team that plays in a park that historically does not reward speed enough to really make two speed guys at the top of the order make sense. Unless they brought in night crews and moved the fences back and found the old Astroturf surface from Houston and laid that down, regardless of the fact that Tito did not use Crawford properly last year this is still not a park that will ever really reward a speed oriented team enough to make a bunch of speed guys pay off. Nothing about Fenway makes it a speed park.

 

By the way, the Sox have one year to figure this out. They either have to make Crawford attractive enough to somebody to get him off this team or very likely lose Ells cause he is arb eligible for 2013 and then he is a free agent in 2014. So if you think that Crawford's pre-2011 stats don't merit his batting 2nd on this team AND have some method for restoring him to at least some stature that allows the Sox to pay some money and move his contract then prepare to lose Ells. The Sox would be out of their minds to keep Crawford and Ells on this team together paying two guys over $20M a year to play outfield positions so that they can continue this ridiculous argument internally for another 4 years after that. If 2012 proves anything it is that there are limits to what the Sox are willing to spend in player payroll regardless of what LL has to say. There are limits to their willingness to pay for their mistakes into the foreseeable future as well. Paying 3 guys and maybe 4 by then over $20M a year to play in the field when you really will need more pitching is the same sort of nonsense that produced the 12-8 box score teams of Sox yesteryear.

 

So ya' better find a way to restore Crawford because you are either going to have to rely on him for the next five years or move him before 2014.

 

That will be the next argument. Unless the Sox pay both of them they are cheap bastards and should be hung by the fingernails until they agree to keep them both.

[redsoxfan3]

This has gotten to be a ridiculous discussion. What the hell, we will just line everybody up based on their Advanced Stats and that will be the batting order.

 

In fact who needs a Manager or a GM for that matter. All you need is a computer an adding machine and an accountant and that can be your Manager and Baseball Operations. Simple. Probably what some would like to think anyway.

 

I think Pedrioa should be batting 3rd in this lineup with Crawford batting in front of him because of Pedroia's stats and Crawford's stats. If you take the one anomaly of 2011 off the charts Crawford's OBP is better than Pedroia's but Pedroia's OPS is better than Crawford's and Crawford has more speed than Pedroia.

 

I think Ells should remain batting 1st because of all his stats from 2011 the power numbers are most suspect to me and Ells is the most natural lead off man the Sox have. Although if Pedroia had to lead off and Ells bat 3d that might not be terrible except putting Ells 3rd forces him to produce power numbers. MLB is littered with guys that simply could not produce power numbers when their position in the batting order demanded power numbers. MLB is also littered with guys that produced great power numbers for one year. By stats alone really Ells should go to 3rd but that not only forces him to produce power numbers but forces Pedey to the top of the batting order unless the Sox do something like stick Avilas at the top of the order. Frankly even that makes more sense than sticking Crawford at the bottom of the order. Least we forget looking at stats alone is likely how Crawford got on this team in the first place. I don't see how being an absolutist pays off when you actually have the job. If I look at these guys and try to cobble together a line up that gets the Sox the best chance of a good result for the money they have invested. That is based on the stats in an absolute sense and the player 's that produce those stats.

 

The only thing I do agree with is that he does not belong here. There is actually no place to put him that works against his $21M salary for one thing. Oh I forgot, money should not count.

 

In addition Crawford is a speed guy on a team that plays in a park that historically does not reward speed enough to really make two speed guys at the top of the order make sense. Unless they brought in night crews and moved the fences back and found the old Astroturf surface from Houston and laid that down, regardless of the fact that Tito did not use Crawford properly last year this is still not a park that will ever really reward a speed oriented team enough to make a bunch of speed guys pay off. Nothing about Fenway makes it a speed park.

 

By the way, the Sox have one year to figure this out. They either have to make Crawford attractive enough to somebody to get him off this team or very likely lose Ells cause he is arb eligible for 2013 and then he is a free agent in 2014. So if you think that Crawford's pre-2011 stats don't merit his batting 2nd on this team AND have some method for restoring him to at least some stature that allows the Sox to pay some money and move his contract then prepare to lose Ells. The Sox would be out of their minds to keep Crawford and Ells on this team together paying two guys over $20M a year to play outfield positions so that they can continue this ridiculous argument internally for another 4 years after that. If 2012 proves anything it is that there are limits to what the Sox are willing to spend in player payroll regardless of what LL has to say. There are limits to their willingness to pay for their mistakes into the foreseeable future as well. Paying 3 guys and maybe 4 by then over $20M a year to play in the field when you really will need more pitching is the same sort of nonsense that produced the 12-8 box score teams of Sox yesteryear.

 

So ya' better find a way to restore Crawford because you are either going to have to rely on him for the next five years or move him before 2014.

 

That will be the next argument. Unless the Sox pay both of them they are cheap bastards and should be hung by the fingernails until they agree to keep them both.

 

I am fine with Crawford batting second. I preached this before the start of last season. I want to see consistency in the lineup. I think Bobby V will do a fine job of that. If you are going to bat CC second, then don't move him around all year until he can produce results. I am fine with Pedroia batting 3rd or 4th. I think it might be reasonable to bat him 4th because of how well he did in the cleanup role last year. I think we need to keep Ellsbury in the leadoff spot regardless. Pedroia is capable of batting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. I am not getting paid to make the lineup and batting order, so I am going to trust Bobby V's decisions, but the most important thing I want to see is consistency. It gets everyone comfortable with their spot in the lineup and the players know what to expect.

 

Ellsbury is also already saying that he wants to stay in Boston and that he is open to talking about extensions. We are stuck with Crawford. I don't think we will be able to trade him at this point, unless we eat the majority of his contract. If we can afford to give Big Papi 14.5 million this year, we should be fine with giving Ellsbury what he is worth. We need to lock Ellsbury up long term and keep him in Boston. He is too good to let go.

[The Boomer]

Wouldn't pitchers pitch around AGon who can beat them with a HR and pitch to the singles hitter instead?

 

They might, but Pedroia is a tough out. Hell, if he gets on the you have to face more lumber coming up. Like I said, just a brain fart.

[jung]

We will see what Ellsbury is willing to do and what the Sox are willing to do when the time comes but that is the other shoe dropping from the Crawford deal.

A. They never should have brought him here in the first place

B. They paid him so much money that the gap between what he makes and what Ellsbury makes is simply to great. Ells is not going to just eat that gap. Why should he. CC is locked at $21. CC at Ortiz money would have made a big difference in how it will likely go with Ells and I don't like CC at $14 either. I will never understand CC at $21. I could make a case for Drew at $14 easier than CC at $21 especially in this park with the team the Sox already had at the time.

 

CC may be the worst Sox signing in my history of watching this team when you combine the initial mistake (signing him at all) with the scale of the mistake (what they signed him for). As much as I hated the Lackey deal even that one rates higher on the sanity scale then the Crawford deal although by degrees only.

[a700hitter]

I think we are over thinking this issue. We have 6 players that are all stars and then there is a big drop off for the bottom 3. Who hits where in the top 6 will in part depend on how they are doing. If each performs up to their expectations, the power hitters will be hitting 3 - 5 or 3-6. If Ells is still hitting HRs, he should be in the 3 hole, and we will have 4 legit power hitters. If CC hits like his Tampa Bay days, he should be in the 2 hole. If not, he'll hit 6th behind Ortiz. Lefty-Rights doesn't matter with our top 6. Their order doesn't much matter as long as they are all bunched together. It would not be smart to drop any of them into the bottom 3. Our bottom 3 is well below the class of the other 6.

[a700hitter]

They might' date=' but Pedroia is a tough out. Hell, if he gets on the you have to face more lumber coming up. Like I said, just a brain fart.[/quote']He did very well in the cleanup spot last year, and depending on injury and interleague play, I think he could hit there from time to time. I just don't know if it would be a good ideas to make it permanent. I think AGon's shoulder should be stronger this year and it is not unreasonable to expect 35 bombs from him in 2012. You want a power hitter behind him for protection.

[Dojji]

I don't want Crawford to sniff the top of the order until he's proven he's past whatever was in his way last year and is hitting more consistently. He breaks in 8th in my lineup and when he proves he can set the table, then I make him a tablesetter.

[jung]

I agree with thinking of the top 6 hitters in the lineup as a bunch with the power hitters in the power hitting spots. Ortiz presents almost the same problem for V that CC presents. He does not want to bat 6th with nobody behind him to protect him either.

 

The difference between the two players is that the Sox have six more years invested in CC at $21M per and have one year invested in Ortiz at $14. CC depends on speed in his game and Ortiz does not. Which guy do you think they are more likely to accommodate? On top of that regardless of what he says or what he wants which guy of the two do you think is more capable of handling that 6 spot role. Is Ortiz the more flexible player, the more seasoned player that can handle that role or is CC? Is Ortiz playing for a contract next year or is CC?

 

On top of everything else regardless of discussions of extending the lineup in reality I think the best shot the Sox have to succeed is to maximize those six batters. If the guys at the top get on and the power hitters drive them in they should be able to make up for the weakness at the bottom. Assuming he comes back to something close to form, CC at 2 sounds to me like the best way to maximize those top 6.

 

I do agree that wherever they stick CC outside of 2, they have to convince him of why that role will work out for him and then they have to teach him what he needs to know to succeed from that position in the lineup. He clearly has no confidence in batting outside of the 2 hole and really does not know how to approach his plate appearances from lower in the batting order. You can likely make a case to CC for why 6 is right but you will still have to set expectations for him and still have to convince him that it is the best role for him and the team.

 

For a multitude of reasons I think 7, 8 or 9 simply won't work as the only explanation V can make are explanations that are going to sound to CC like " we think you are a liability higher in the order". Everything is going to sound to CC like, the way you are using me is a reflection of what the owner said about signing me in the off season. Even when he finally started to hit some later in the season he looked lost down there. He looked like he had no idea what was expected of him nor what he was doing. He was just up there hackin'.

 

Here I go right back to where I was. He never ever should have been brought to a big market team especially one with a loaded lineup and the kind of expectations we have for the Red Sox. Worse than that, the Sox were warned not to do it. Never should have been brought to this park to play 81 games a year as well. Now the Sox are stuck trying to make the best of a bad situation. In the short run they have till just before 2014 at most to figure it out. In the long run they have the term of CC's contract to figure it out.

[User Name]

This has gotten to be a ridiculous discussion. What the hell, we will just line everybody up based on their Advanced Stats and that will be the batting order.

 

In fact who needs a Manager or a GM for that matter. All you need is a computer an adding machine and an accountant and that can be your Manager and Baseball Operations. Simple. Probably what some would like to think anyway.

 

I think Pedrioa should be batting 3rd in this lineup with Crawford batting in front of him because of Pedroia's stats and Crawford's stats. If you take the one anomaly of 2011 off the charts Crawford's OBP is better than Pedroia's but Pedroia's OPS is better than Crawford's and Crawford has more speed than Pedroia.

 

I think Ells should remain batting 1st because of all his stats from 2011 the power numbers are most suspect to me and Ells is the most natural lead off man the Sox have. Although if Pedroia had to lead off and Ells bat 3d that might not be terrible except putting Ells 3rd forces him to produce power numbers. MLB is littered with guys that simply could not produce power numbers when their position in the batting order demanded power numbers. MLB is also littered with guys that produced great power numbers for one year. By stats alone really Ells should go to 3rd but that not only forces him to produce power numbers but forces Pedey to the top of the batting order unless the Sox do something like stick Avilas at the top of the order. Frankly even that makes more sense than sticking Crawford at the bottom of the order. Least we forget looking at stats alone is likely how Crawford got on this team in the first place. I don't see how being an absolutist pays off when you actually have the job. If I look at these guys and try to cobble together a line up that gets the Sox the best chance of a good result for the money they have invested. That is based on the stats in an absolute sense and the player 's that produce those stats.

 

The only thing I do agree with is that he does not belong here. There is actually no place to put him that works against his $21M salary for one thing. Oh I forgot, money should not count.

 

In addition Crawford is a speed guy on a team that plays in a park that historically does not reward speed enough to really make two speed guys at the top of the order make sense. Unless they brought in night crews and moved the fences back and found the old Astroturf surface from Houston and laid that down, regardless of the fact that Tito did not use Crawford properly last year this is still not a park that will ever really reward a speed oriented team enough to make a bunch of speed guys pay off. Nothing about Fenway makes it a speed park.

 

By the way, the Sox have one year to figure this out. They either have to make Crawford attractive enough to somebody to get him off this team or very likely lose Ells cause he is arb eligible for 2013 and then he is a free agent in 2014. So if you think that Crawford's pre-2011 stats don't merit his batting 2nd on this team AND have some method for restoring him to at least some stature that allows the Sox to pay some money and move his contract then prepare to lose Ells. The Sox would be out of their minds to keep Crawford and Ells on this team together paying two guys over $20M a year to play outfield positions so that they can continue this ridiculous argument internally for another 4 years after that. If 2012 proves anything it is that there are limits to what the Sox are willing to spend in player payroll regardless of what LL has to say. There are limits to their willingness to pay for their mistakes into the foreseeable future as well. Paying 3 guys and maybe 4 by then over $20M a year to play in the field when you really will need more pitching is the same sort of nonsense that produced the 12-8 box score teams of Sox yesteryear.

 

So ya' better find a way to restore Crawford because you are either going to have to rely on him for the next five years or move him before 2014.

 

That will be the next argument. Unless the Sox pay both of them they are cheap bastards and should be hung by the fingernails until they agree to keep them both.

 

You don't need advanced stats to know Pedroia's a better hitter than Crawford. . That's a cop-out. You give your best hitters the most AB's. That's always been the basis for lineup construction.

 

As for the rest of your post, Crawford can use his speed batting 6th or 7th, it's not like it will magically disappear, and you hit your best hitter third. That's Adrian. You just don't move the lineup around to "restore some guy's confidence". He will hit where he is told to hit.

[User Name]

The money argument is also overplayed. He can be making a $100 million per, but if he's not hitting better than Pedroia, then he shouldn't be occupying Pedroia's spot in the lineup.