2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[jung]

I could be wrong on this but if CC's wrist is not right I don't think he is anywhere in the batting order. A dink here or there is one thing. Recovering from surgery no matter how minor is something else again. The wrist is just under to much strain batting so I think if he is not ready to play on day 1 he is not in the lineup at all.

 

When he is ready to hit there should be no issue with where he hits at least as it relates to wrist.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's not picking and choosing when it's his career vs 1 bad year due in large part to poor managing and discomfort in the lineup.

 

Obviously Craw wasn't comfortable last year. So you get him comfortable and stick him back in the 2 slot.

 

Why the hell would you stick him in the bottom of the order and make him earn his way back when he came out and said, just 2-3 days ago, that he was trying to do too much last year because he felt like he had to earn his way back into the top of the order and that ruined his game?!?

 

Oh - and I'll take 85-90% of Carl Crawford while his wrist heals all day in the top 3 of the order.

 

I'm very happy that you're not making out the lineup.

 

So it was the manager's fault that Crawford didnt play well? That's assinine. Cmon man.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I could be wrong on this but if CC's wrist is not right I don't think he is anywhere in the batting order. A dink here or there is one thing. Recovering from surgery no matter how minor is something else again. The wrist is just under to much strain batting so I think if he is not ready to play on day 1 he is not in the lineup at all.

 

When he is ready to hit there should be no issue with where he hits at least as it relates to wrist.

 

Well, that's what Bobby V thought too, but he took 30 cuts in the cage at around 80% intensity just yesterday, and is way ahead of schedule as it stands. He's also not limited at all in all other aspects (i.e. defense, throwing).

 

I'd say he'll probably be hitting live pitching by the end of next week, and then in ST games by around March 10-March 15. He'll get enough AB in and will be ready for Opening Day if he continues to progress like he has.

[SoxFanForsyth]

So it was the manager's fault that Crawford didnt play well? That's assinine. Cmon man.

 

No. It's the managers fault that he dropped him to 7 after 3 games. 3 games man. And what's he going to do? He's never been put in that situation before.

 

Francona did a horrible job with Crawford last season. I'm not saying it's entirely Francona's fault, but it played a large part in it.

[jung]

I'd say he'll probably be hitting live pitching by the end of next week, and then in ST games by around March 10-March 15. He'll get enough AB in and will be ready for Opening Day if he continues to progress like he has.

 

But I think we are saying the same thing here. If he is truly ready by opening day, he plays if not he waits. If he is making fast progress that only increases the chances that he is 100% for opening day.

 

Agons was a question mark but was 100% by opening day last year and I think he proved that. He did not run into shoulder issues again until the all star break and I am not sure he really tweaked his shoulder even then. He claims that he did not tweak his shoulder and in fact no Red Sox authority claimed that he had. The press claimed that he had.

[a700hitter]

SFF, as to the other part of your prediction, why do you think Doubront will emerge from Spring Training in the rotation?

[SoxFanForsyth]

But I think we are saying the same thing here. If he is truly ready by opening day, he plays if not he waits. If he is making fast progress that only increases the chances that he is 100% for opening day.

 

Agons was a question mark but was 100% by opening day last year and I think he proved that. He did not run into shoulder issues again until the all star break and I am not sure he really tweaked his shoulder even then. He claims that he did not tweak his shoulder and in fact no Red Sox authority claimed that he had. The press claimed that he had.

 

I think he hurt his neck last year after the ASB and that kind of robbed some of his power. And then he also didn't have his offseason training program because of his shoulder, so he wasn't able to work out as hard and he just got tired toward the end. He could have used a couple days off in the middle of the season last year, but with the HRD and the ASG, he only got like 1 day off.

[a700hitter]

No. It's the managers fault that he dropped him to 7 after 3 games. 3 games man. And what's he going to do? He's never been put in that situation before.

 

Francona did a horrible job with Crawford last season. I'm not saying it's entirely Francona's fault, but it played a large part in it.

I don't know what went on with Crawford last year, but it seemed like Francona didn't know how to use him or have any plan to utilize his speed game.

[jung]

Like I said early maybe I could have swallowed one move of CC in the lineup with an explanation to him from the manager and an intention to move him back.

 

Regardless of the fact that moving him was not his biggest issue last year, the number of times Tito moved him turned the whole thing into a sad joke. That's right.....sad. It was actually sad watching Tito flounder around as if there was some magic to be found in batting him 7th today and 5th tomorrow. It was ridiculous.

[jung]

I am OK with a guy being asked to play his way into shape as long as he is not still damaged as far as the surgical repair being sound. I don't think there is a choice with regard to ST workouts because you are never really going to have that opportunity again. As long as you are sound you should play.

 

So I was OK with AGons playing from the start last year and under the circumstances don't think holding him out would have done anything positive.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Like I said early maybe I could have swallowed one move of CC in the lineup with an explanation to him from the manager and an intention to move him back.

 

Regardless of the fact that moving him was not his biggest issue last year, the number of times Tito moved him turned the whole thing into a sad joke. That's right.....sad. It was actually sad watching Tito flounder around as if there was some magic to be found in batting him 7th today and 5th tomorrow. It was ridiculous.

 

Yup. Some players thrive on consistency, and Carl Crawford is one of those players. Consistency promotes comfort. Change is often an uncomfortable thing, and Crawford went through entirely too much change last year. And Crawford is even more sensitive to change than other people. He's a very quiet guy, watch his interviews. He's just kind of a quiet, shy guy. He's not going to speak up. Like I said, he needs to be handled with kid gloves, which is probably why he did so well with Madden.

 

I think Crawford learned a lot last year, but more than that, I think the Red Sox learned a lot about Crawford last year.

[mvp 78]

I would be SO f***ING HAPPY if you moved Crawford to leadoff and lost nearly 40 points of OBP in the spot that gets the most ABs

 

The difference between 1st and 2nd is about 15 AB's. Over 15 plate appearances, the difference between CC and Pedroia is immaterial to the season.

[jung]

I would be OK with Pedey leading off although I still would prefer Ells there and Pedey 3rd. You can make a case for either but Ells is faster and I am more inclined to think the one number that will be difficult for Ells to maintain from 2011 were his power numbers....maybe not.

 

Power numbers when they are not necessarily expected of you are easier to come by than when you are put into a position where you have to produce good power numbers. Pedey does well from the 3 hole and Ells obviously does well from the 1. I just don't see any earth shattering advantage for flipping them.

[jacksonianmarch]

The difference between 1st and 2nd is about 15 AB's. Over 15 plate appearances' date=' the difference between CC and Pedroia is immaterial to the season.[/quote']

 

It's 18, and the better thought would be the fact that Crawford would be reaching base less in front of the big bashers than Ellsbury would be over the whole season

[Palodios]

No. It's the managers fault that he dropped him to 7 after 3 games. 3 games man. And what's he going to do? He's never been put in that situation before.

 

Francona did a horrible job with Crawford last season. I'm not saying it's entirely Francona's fault, but it played a large part in it.

 

This point is not quite accurate.

 

During the first twelve games of the season, the Red Sox went 2-10. Crawford was hitting .137. They did move him around a little bit, but he hit below 3rd exactly one time.

[a700hitter]

Guardians pitcher Derek Lowe has strong interest in returning to the Red Sox after this season as a starter or reliever. Cafardo writes that the veteran could have been an interesting solution as the BoSox's fourth or fifth starter, but picking up a large chunk his salary from the Braves didn't interest Boston.

I wouldn't mind him in the 5th spot.

[SoxFanForsyth]

This point is not quite accurate.

 

During the first twelve games of the season, the Red Sox went 2-10. Crawford was hitting .137. They did move him around a little bit, but he hit below 3rd exactly one time.

 

Well, first off he has always said he hates leading off and isn't comfortable there. If there's a problem with him saying that, then you have to also have a problem with Pedroia and Youk saying the same thing.

 

But regardless, you stick him somewhere and keep him there. Although he was in the top 3rd, he hit 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in that span, along with 5th and 7th. All in a matter of 12 games. That's an awful lot of moving around. Can you imagine the outcry if Francona did that with Pedroia if, for some reason, Pedroia started slow??

 

Maybe last year was just a learning experience. Now we know, Crawford needs to have stability, and that's fine. Throw him in the 2 hole and forget about him.

[a700hitter]

The Angels are unlikely to outright release Bobby Abreu as they owe him $9MM, but their efforts to deal him have been fruitless so far.

If the Angels release him and have to pick up his full salary, should the Sox pick him up for the waiver price and he can platoon with Ross?

[Palodios]

Well' date=' first off he has always said he hates leading off and isn't comfortable there. If there's a problem with him saying that, then you have to also have a problem with Pedroia and Youk saying the same thing. [/quote']

 

Crawford explicitly said in his first press conference in Boston that he wouldn't mind hitting wherever. Maybe that's what he expressed to Francona, and why he was moved around so much.

[Palodios]

If the Angels release him and have to pick up his full salary' date=' should the Sox pick him up for the waiver price and he can platoon with Ross?[/quote']

 

The Angels will get something for him... he did OBP .350 last year afterall.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Crawford explicitly said in his first press conference in Boston that he wouldn't mind hitting wherever. Maybe that's what he expressed to Francona' date=' and why he was moved around so much.[/quote']

 

I mean what is he supposed to say? "I only hit 2nd or 3rd"? In his first press conference? That's not Crawford. Regardless of how he really feels, he's not going to say that.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Angels arent releasing Abreu. The think is, they are going to have to eat almost his whole salary in order to get something for him. If I were the Angels, I'd deal him to the Yankees for one of their B level pitching prospects like Phelps or Warren. They need someone in the 5 spot in their rotation and these guys fit the bill

[mvp 78]

It's 18' date=' and the better thought would be the fact that Crawford would be reaching base less in front of the big bashers than Ellsbury would be over the whole season[/quote']

 

Except that Ells would hit directly ahead of AGon, Youk, and Ortiz who are the Sox power guys. The power guy behind CC: Ells.

[The Boomer]

I can't remember what they signed for either, but I do know that Epstein called them low risk, high reward signings so I took his word for that. Since they both became starters the risk went to high....and that was my point. The wording can change just by the reality of the posiition those signings take when the season began. We were fighting for a division title that summer, and, in fact, had a three game lead at the ASB. Because those two orignally "low risk, high reward" pitchers were thrust into the cauldron of the pennant race and failed thoroughly, didn't it become a high risk adventure? Again, that is why I don't take too much stock in that term.

 

To me it takes on meaning if you don't expect much at all from them and don't use them extensively but when you do they pleasantly surprise you. You might even get lucky and start using them more and, walla, they pull a Garcia or a Colon and you're home free. I would like to see a couple of those types of signing work for us this season because we have a lot of those "low risk, high reward types. Or is is low risk, so-so reward types? It can get confusing.

 

For the record, I can't find a quote from Theo describing them in that way. There are a lot of other people who do, but not him directly. But it's certainly possible he did say that.

 

I like CC hitting second, but only by default. I think last year one of my brainstorms was to have him hit 9th so we had a wrap-around lineup.

[Spitball]

The bottom of the order is under-rated but important. Crawfords' OBP does not warrant him hitting in the top six spots, but he can be an important component to the bottom of the order. He has some power and speed. Let him empower the bottom third.

 

My biggest complaint with Francona was his penchant for letting the order take care of matters. He had two of the best base runners in baseball in Ellsbury and Crawford, yet he tended to play conservatively. With Crawford batting seventh, the Sox have a bottom of the order force capable of powering or stealing his way into scoring position. With Crawford in scoring position, the Sox need only one hit from their eighth or ninth hitter to produce a run. Too often bottoms of orders are limited to three hits or on base chances to produce a run.

 

The Sox have Crawford to energize the bottom third, and that is a plus.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The bottom of the order is under-rated but important. Crawfords' OBP does not warrant him hitting in the top six spots, but he can be an important component to the bottom of the order. He has some power and speed. Let him empower the botom third.

 

My biggest complaint with Francona was his penchant for letting the order take care of matters. He had two of the best base runners in baseball in Ellsbury and Crawford, yet he tended to play conservatively. With Crawford batting seventh, the Sox have a bottom of the order force capable of powering or stealing his way into scoring position. With Crawford in scoring position, the Sox need only one hit from their eighth or ninth hitter to produce a run. Too often bottoms of orders are limited to three hits or on base chances to produce a run.

 

The Sox have Crawford to energize the bottom third, and that is a plus.

 

Could not disagree more. Moving Crawford to the bottom 3rd of the order not only crushes his confidence, but it also takes away 90 AB from him compared to the 2 hole. You don't want to have a guy hitting .305/.355/.450 and stealing 40 bags in the 7 hole only to get left on base 80% of the time because Salty and Aviles OPS around .730 a piece.

[User Name]

As of right now, Crawford is not the hitter you're making him out to be, and he should hit in the bottom of the order until he proves he's back to his old form.

[SoxFanForsyth]

As of right now' date=' Crawford is not the hitter you're making him out to be, and he should hit in the bottom of the order until he proves he's back to his old form.[/quote']

 

This is the exact mindset that made him a .255/.289/.405 hitter last season.

 

You really want to go into 2012 and effectively tell Carl Crawford, probably the most sensitive player on the team, that we're still going to let 2011 affect 2012??

 

The absolutely, positively worst thing you can to do him is rehash 2011. Wipe the slate clean and let him start over. Otherwise he's going to continue to try to make up for 2011 and pressure himself into another terrible season.

[SoxFanForsyth]

This year, the mindset should be "Prove to me that you don't belong in the 2 hole" rather than "Prove to me that you do belong in the 2 hole". That's the best way I can explain it.

[User Name]

I think it's the other way around. Specially considering that anyone he were to displace from the 1 through 6 spots had way better seasons that he did. He is one player. He has to adapt to the lineup, not the other way around.