2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

I guarantee you that's not why Jung was saying it was specious. You are saying they won't even get to the WC because of their rotation, which is a valid, but completely different argument.

 

I think he was saying it was specious because he thought I was saying the one-game playoff would advantage the Red Sox... as in, they would be advantaged to be in a one-game playoff. That wasn't my point. My point was that of all teams who might get to a one-game playoff, I think the Sox are better situated than most to win that game AND see success in the next round.

I deleted the post after I realized that you guys were discussing the playoffs. I didn't want to muck up the discussion.

[example1]

How can you say they arent good enough to beat good teams? That's just stupid. Their offense was second best in the game' date=' their staff (which was good to begin with) just got a major boost yet they dont have the talent to beat good teams? That's dumb[/quote']

 

What does their recent "boost" or offense have to do with their mediocre record vs good teams last year, or their annual early departures in the playoffs except for 2009 despite having by far the highest payroll?

 

I think the fact that their pitching has been mediocre means that good teams beat them. Perhaps that will change with Kuroda and Pineda but they will need to actually pitch in pinsripes before I bow down to their greatness.

[example1]

I deleted the post after I realized that you guys were discussing the playoffs. I didn't want to muck up the discussion.

 

Fair enough! Thanks for clarifying that.

[example1]

The Wild Card teams will be at a tremendous disadvantage going forward. They will be forced to use their aces to win the 1 game playoff and then the ace doesn't get to pitch until game 3 of the Division Series' date=' so they will be at a tremendous disadvantage. [b']Yes, it does help that the Sox have a very good top 3, probably better than most teams, but you would want the hottest of those 3 to get 2 starts in the 5 game series. [/b] That's not going to be a possibility for the Wild Card teams.

 

This point, according to Jung, might be the most specious post he's ever seen on this board. Virtually the exact point I made, though you probably made it more clearly.

[a700hitter]

This is an unnecessary diversion. I mistakenly said "three pitchers considered aces" when in my first post I was very careful to say "three former All-Stars".

 

I absolutely agree that none of the three are true #1 pitchers in the mold of CC or Halladay. I would say that on any given night, all three are one step below those, capable of winning games against any true #1 and considered the favorite against most teams' #2 or #3 pitchers. My bad.

Fair enough. They are three very solid pitchers. No argument there. They are all All Star caliber. No argument there either.

[a700hitter]

Fair enough! Thanks for clarifying that.

Jeesh, we are starting to develop similar posting styles with this "fair enough" stuff.

[a700hitter]

Cardinals Shopping Kyle McClellan

By Zach Links [January 29 at 3:16pm CST]

 

3:16pm: Even though they have interest, the Cardinals' asking price is too high for the Orioles right now, a team source tells Roch Kubatko of MASNsports.com (via Twitter)

 

2:35pm: The Cardinals are actively shopping versatile righthander Kyle McClellan, writes Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Moving McClellan would allow the club to alleviate a logjam in their bullpen and give them the payroll flexibility to a sign a free agent starting pitcher.

 

Meanwhile, the Cardinals are looking to clear money in order to sign Roy Oswalt, tweets Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. It was rumored this week that St. Louis was near a deal with the veteran but Morosi stresses that there's no deal in place just yet.

 

General Manager John Mozeliak recently conceded that the club could possibly deal McClellan but believes it more likely that the he will be with the Cardinals when pitchers and catchers report on February 18th. The Cardinals have attempted to engage a number of clubs in talks for McClellan and the Orioles have emerged as one of the most promising trade partners for him, according to Strauss' industry sources.

 

The Padres and Diamondbacks are also among the teams that have expressed interest in McClellan.

[iortiz]

I don't mean any disrespect, but this is easy to say from the outside looking in, but not that easy when you're actually in charge of building the roster.

 

It's easy to say "SIGN X" without knowing the specifics of why X is not a good fit for the team.

 

Look what they have done thus far. (of course, everything can change)

 

They

 

Sign Ortiz 14+-

Sign Ross 3

Sign Miller 1

(trying to sign a SP) 5+

 

BL 23+-

 

My strategy

 

Let Walk Miller

Let walk Ortiz

Keep Scu 7.5

Sign Buehrle 55/4 or plan B sign Kuroda/Oswalt 10 Plan C 20/2 Jackson (or something)

Sign Ross 3

Sign Wheeler 3

Share the DH load with Lav/Aviles/Sweeney/Youk

 

Worst case scenario 26 (Buehrle)

Bets case scenario 22 (Kuroda/Jackson/Oswalt)

 

Let's say that you go with the worst case scenario... Are you really going to risk a whole season for 3 MUSD? A 180 MUSD team is going to risk a whole season for 3 MUSD? Is JH going to put in risk a sold out/sponsors/etc for 3 MUSD?

 

***The only reason/justification could be stay under the cap, fine... but if we are/will end over the cap anyway, for God's Sake, 3 MUSD shouldn't be the show stopper.

 

I'm not saying that it is easy, but we have thoughts as well and we all here have great ideas too..... in the end it is only my opinion...but this scenario is very affordable and could give u more chances to compete next season. IMO

[a700hitter]

About a week ago, maybe a little more, the members of TalkSox almost unanimously agreed that the Sox needed to get another starting pitcher. There was no dissent on that. Without another starting pitcher we were pretty much in agreement that the 2012 pitching will most likely be about the same as the 2011 pitching not significantly better or worse. Obviously, if everything works out perfect, the 2012 pitching could significantly improve. Similarly, with a few bad breaks, the 2012 pitching could crash and burn. However, the expectation is that they will be about the same as 2011, which proved not to be good enough. Now, that the news has turned very discouraging about us getting another stater, I don't understand how some posters are saying that we will be alright with what we have.:dunno:

[Elktonnick]

About a week ago' date=' maybe a little more, the members of TalkSox almost unanimously agreed that the Sox needed to get another starting pitcher. There was no dissent on that. Without another starting pitcher we were pretty much in agreement that the 2012 pitching will most likely be about the same as the 2011 pitching not significantly better or worse. Obviously, if everything works out perfect, the 2012 pitching could significantly improve. Similarly, with a few bad breaks, the 2012 pitching could crash and burn. However, the expectation is that they will be about the same as 2011, which proved not to be good enough. Now, that the news has turned very discouraging about us getting another stater, I don't understand how some posters are saying that we will be alright with what we have.:dunno:[/quote']

 

It is called reaction formation.

 

Reaction formation is a defense against threatening thoughts and feelings. When this attempt at repression doesn’t work, or his personality suggests a different method of coping, he may compulsively think and feel the opposite, usually to excess.

[a700hitter]

It is called reaction formation.

 

Reaction formation is a defense against threatening thoughts and feelings. When this attempt at repression doesn’t work, or his personality suggests a different method of coping, he may compulsively think and feel the opposite, usually to excess.

Now that I know the clinical term for it, am I correctly observing this behavior?

[a700hitter]

Zack Greinke Open To Extension

By Zach Links [January 29 at 3:57pm CST]

 

Brewers ace Zack Greinke is still operating without an agent, but that does not necessarily scuttle the chances of a contract extension, writes Adam McCalvy of MLB.com. Greinke is entering the final season of the four-year, $38MM extension he signed in with the Royals in January of 2009.

[Elktonnick]

Now that I know the clinical term for it' date=' am I correctly observing this behavior?[/quote']

 

I think so. The emotional investment in the Red Sox is considerable, hence the intensity of the arguments on either side. Reaction formation is a defensive reaction.

[mvp 78]

God, Sweeney at DH would be a miserable lineup.

[jacksonianmarch]

What does their recent "boost" or offense have to do with their mediocre record vs good teams last year, or their annual early departures in the playoffs except for 2009 despite having by far the highest payroll?

 

I think the fact that their pitching has been mediocre means that good teams beat them. Perhaps that will change with Kuroda and Pineda but they will need to actually pitch in pinsripes before I bow down to their greatness.

 

You do understand that a .500+ win % vs playoff contenders is good, right? Also, 2009 we won the world series, 2010 we lost in the ALCS, in 2011, we were 1 run from going to the ALCS. It's not like we haven't won any playoff we're 4-2 in the last 3 yrs.

[example1]

About a week ago' date=' maybe a little more, the members of TalkSox almost unanimously agreed that the Sox needed to get another starting pitcher. There was no dissent on that. Without another starting pitcher we were pretty much in agreement that the 2012 pitching will most likely be about the same as the 2011 pitching not significantly better or worse. Obviously, if everything works out perfect, the 2012 pitching could significantly improve. Similarly, with a few bad breaks, the 2012 pitching could crash and burn. However, the expectation is that they will be about the same as 2011, which proved not to be good enough. Now, that the news has turned very discouraging about us getting another stater, I don't understand how some posters are saying that we will be alright with what we have.:dunno:[/quote']

 

I know that for me, my opinions about Oswalt have soured as I have seen more and more things about him not wanting to pitch in the AL, or wishing to stay in the south if he does. Perhaps none of that was accurate, but that's how I've come to see things.

 

As for Edwin jackson, he would be a fine guy to sign to a one year deal. I don't think he's likely to settle for one year (neither do a lot of other posters) so he hasn't been my number one target. Gavin Floyd doesn't interest me too much at all.

 

I think this team would be considerably better off if they could get one more solid SP for the rotation. My top choice would probably be Matt Garza and I would use Selig's involvement in the negotiations to really press for that outcome. Good prospects + Theo for Garza.

 

However, that doesn't seem likely.

 

So why might my tone have changed a little bit? Well, first, I wasn't saying the team was sunk without another pitcher, but to the degree that I thought they needed another one, I might care a little less now. Partly because the options are few and not that good (see above) and second because I (as much as anyone) just don't see the 2011 team as the complete and utter failure that others do. I think they had the parts to get it done, and wouldn't be shocked if they took another run in 2012 and found success.

[example1]

I think so. The emotional investment in the Red Sox is considerable' date=' hence the intensity of the arguments on either side. Reaction formation is a defensive reaction.[/quote']

 

How much do you charge for an hour of message-board psychotherapy? Are you licensed to provide such cutting insight?

[seabeachfred]

It sounds like you have a nice big family. My daughter doesn't much care for baseball' date=' but with me as her Dad and her boyfriend who is also a Sox fan she leans that way. My son is a Sox fan in his blood. I got lucky with that. He and I have taken in a bunch of games together. He makes most road trips to Fenway with me every season and he joined me three times in spring training.[/quote']

 

Your situation sounds pretty terrific to me my friend. Your daughter seems to be in good hands baseball wise and if the guy is a good person he is double as lucky as he most likely is----and the fact that you and your son can go on baseball trips together is the bonus of bonuses. I have to loan wolf it, like this June in Chicago because I'm a Red Sox island in a sea of Angels fans. Which series are you planning on taking in this season?

 

Oh yes, I almost forgot last time to ask. Is Long Island Yankees or Mets country? When I was a kid in Queens where I lived until I was 14, Long Island was mostly Dodgers country what with so many people there originally from Brooklyn and Southeastern Queens where Dodger fans, Brooklyn Dodger fans, prevailed.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[seabeachfred]

I like the nicknames. Most of them are corny' date=' but they make me laugh. Fred is a Brooklyn guy and so am I, and everyone in Brooklyn had at least one nickname. They were very colorful, but not necessarily flattering. No one got upset about it. Here people get upset about funny nicknames about guys that wouldn't say hello to any of us if they passed us on the street. I don't get it. :dunno: Let Fred be himself and read his posts for the substance if you can't appreciate the entertainment value that he tries to work into his posts.[/quote']

 

Thanks my friend. We native New Yorkers see things a little differently than others I guess. I also like to have some fun on this board. When I get pissed off as something the Red Sox haven't done that I think ought to have been done, a little sarcasm and corny nicknames thrown in ease my tension and sometimes I even laugh at my silliness. I don't see why anyone should get offended by that.

[Elktonnick]

How much do you charge for an hour of message-board psychotherapy? Are you licensed to provide such cutting insight?

 

Those who know me professionally will have to answer that question for you.

[seabeachfred]

Mike and Fred are great guys' date=' I bet that if Fred join us in July, Mike and him will be very good friends, and who knows? Probably he could teach us some nicknames. [/quote']

 

I thought about coming in July iortiz but seeing the Red Sox at Wrigley Field was too much of a temptation to pass up. I still regret not going there in 2006 when the Sox last played there. And please, stop telling everyone I'm 77. Bad enough I am most likely the oldest guy on the board but I am only 71. Please don't rush up the count. Speaking of nicknames I came up with one for one of our new toilet-type pitchers. How does Vincente "White Coat" Padilla sound?

[seabeachfred]

Worst case scenario:

 

Buchholz goes down with back pain again. Miller takes the ball in his place. Miller puts up a 5 ERA, while only being able to strike out Josh Hamilton, and no one else.

 

Beckett hyperextends his knee before the AS break, Silva takes the ball in his place.

 

Bard manages to go 90 innings before starting to complain about elbow stiffness.

 

Padilla beans every Yankees batter in the lineup in the first inning of his first start against them, and subsequently gets into a fist fight with Bobby V.

 

David Ortiz forgets how to hit LHP, and puts up another lackluster season.

 

Carl Crawford gets upset because Terry Francona criticizes his batting stance on baseball tonight, he soon after is on the DL with a vagina sprain.

 

Matt Albers has a great first half, but then he remembers that he's Matt Albers.

 

am i missing anything yet?

 

You got it all big guy!!!!! Corny? maybe. Silly? Possibly. But a funny piece of work? Absolutely and, believe it or not, I'm sitting here trying to type while I'm LMFAO!!!!!!!!

 

We need more of this RC84 from all of us around here. I like to go off the wall at times but I try to add a little humor and corn if I can. We're here to have fun and join up with people who share love for a particular beloved team, a ball club that it took me most of my life to realize that this was the team for me. Keep them coming. I'm still laughing up a storm.

[seabeachfred]

I get the impression the Red Sox tinker too much with their pitchers, sometimes with counter-productive results.

 

I also think it's possible their strict pitch limit approach results in unnecessarily lower innings for their starters and more wear and tear on the bullpen.

 

On your two posts---first off, wouldn't it be good if Selig really showed some balls and practiced what he preached about this jumping around by baseball execs? How? Giving us Garza. That would really send a message and since the Cubs are rebuilding they shouldn't raise as much hell as they would if they were pennant contenders. Of course, dreams are wonderful.

 

As for Buchholz, I do not like the way he arches his back as he delivers the ball. Now I admit I'm no expert on pitching mechanics but I coached long enough to know that such a delivery can put a real strain on the back. I never taught such a delivery. He does need to straighten up, head over lead leg and drive forward from his leg kick on. Now that's just my opinion.

[a700hitter]

So why might my tone have changed a little bit? Well, first, I wasn't saying the team was sunk without another pitcher, but to the degree that I thought they needed another one, I might care a little less now. Partly because the options are few and not that good (see above) and second because I (as much as anyone) just don't see the 2011 team as the complete and utter failure that others do. I think they had the parts to get it done, and wouldn't be shocked if they took another run in 2012 and found success.

While the 2011 team was not an utter failure, the consensus is that the biggest problem with the team was the pitching. If we are going to go into 2012 with pitching that we all think is about the same, that is not a good thing. I think we could find ourselves in a similar situation with our current roster at the end of the season, and the downturn or collapse could start earlier.

[a700hitter]

How much do you charge for an hour of message-board psychotherapy? Are you licensed to provide such cutting insight?

You get charged for an hour but only get 50 minutes.

[Elktonnick]

On your two posts---first off, wouldn't it be good if Selig really showed some balls and practiced what he preached about this jumping around by baseball execs? How? Giving us Garza. That would really send a message and since the Cubs are rebuilding they shouldn't raise as much hell as they would if they were pennant contenders. Of course, dreams are wonderful.

 

As for Buchholz, I do not like the way he arches his back as he delivers the ball. Now I admit I'm no expert on pitching mechanics but I coached long enough to know that such a delivery can put a real strain on the back. I never taught such a delivery. He does need to straighten up, head over lead leg and drive forward from his leg kick on. Now that's just my opinion.

 

Hershiser more than once criticized Buccholtz along those same lines. The one thing that also bother me about him and this may affect both his mechanics and his back. He is never relaxed on the mound. He appears to be particularly tense. He makes a great many wasted throws to first with runners on who have no intention of stealing.

[a700hitter]

Your situation sounds pretty terrific to me my friend. Your daughter seems to be in good hands baseball wise and if the guy is a good person he is double as lucky as he most likely is----and the fact that you and your son can go on baseball trips together is the bonus of bonuses. I have to loan wolf it, like this June in Chicago because I'm a Red Sox island in a sea of Angels fans. Which series are you planning on taking in this season?

 

Oh yes, I almost forgot last time to ask. Is Long Island Yankees or Mets country? When I was a kid in Queens where I lived until I was 14, Long Island was mostly Dodgers country what with so many people there originally from Brooklyn and Southeastern Queens where Dodger fans, Brooklyn Dodger fans, prevailed.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I am planning to be in Boston in April for the Yankees (4/21), in May for either the Orioles or Cleveland (haven't decided yet), in June for the Nats, July for the Yanks and August for the Royals.

 

Long Island isn't solid Yanks or Mets, but probably more Yankees at this point. It used to be more for the Mets.

[seabeachfred]

Whatever brah. Just think about how you're always calling out people you disagree with, even if they're respectful posters like E1. Unsurprisingly, only posters who pull off this same crap agree with you. No bias? Gimme a break.

 

Also, get off my nuts.

 

Please take this as friendly legitimate criticism because I like you User even if we disagree a lot of the time. You really get bent out of shape when a poster says something that is less than complimentary about the Red Sox chances. You seem to take it as a personal affront and get very angry about it. BPEF seems to me to be a class act and every time we've exchanged posts I have found him to be a real gentlemen as well as a knowledgeable baseball fan. I really couldn't understand you going off on him the way you did yesterday.

 

Please keep in mind that no matter what the differences are, we are all ardent and passionate Red Sox fans who only want the best for their team. Some see the glass as half full as you and o thers do, some see it as half-empty. Diversity is good for keeping the board alive. And just for the record, when the Red Sox win a game I consider the whole day to be a success.

[a700hitter]

I thought about coming in July iortiz but seeing the Red Sox at Wrigley Field was too much of a temptation to pass up. I still regret not going there in 2006 when the Sox last played there. And please' date=' stop telling everyone I'm 77. Bad enough I am most likely the oldest guy on the board but I am only 71. Please don't rush up the count. Speaking of nicknames I came up with one for one of our new toilet-type pitchers. How does Vincente "White Coat" Padilla sound?[/quote']I have edited my post where I picked up the wrong age. Your energy and passion for the game is impressive even at the tender age of 71.

[SoxSport]

On your two posts---first off, wouldn't it be good if Selig really showed some balls and practiced what he preached about this jumping around by baseball execs? How? Giving us Garza. That would really send a message and since the Cubs are rebuilding they shouldn't raise as much hell as they would if they were pennant contenders. Of course, dreams are wonderful.

 

As for Buchholz, I do not like the way he arches his back as he delivers the ball. Now I admit I'm no expert on pitching mechanics but I coached long enough to know that such a delivery can put a real strain on the back. I never taught such a delivery. He does need to straighten up, head over lead leg and drive forward from his leg kick on. Now that's just my opinion.

 

 

Ha. Well, that would be a shocker--getting Garza for Epstein. If Selig wants to make a statement, that would certainly do it. The talk is Lucchino has been asking for Garza all along, but most people haven't taken it too seriously. I think Epstein needs an ego check--anyways. Maybe that's been his problem the last two years in Boston--with his reckless spending and disregard for team chemistry.

 

As for Buchholz's mechanics, I defer to my pitching coach.