2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

Collatoral consequences hell; it will be collatoral damage in a big way, and that is why I hold Benny the Boob in such ill repute. Too many on this board are saying give the guy a chance, let him show what he can do. It is too early to judge him. The hell with that; it is not too easy for me to do that. His giving arbitration to Ortiz was the dumbest move he or any GM could have made. It smothered our chances to get some much needed front line pitching, it blocked arguably our best hitting prospect, and results in the signing of more and more trash like Carlos Hi Ho Silva, Deutschland Justin Germano, Aaron Short Order Cook, not to mention Charlie Haegar Slacks and the miserable holdover from last season, the immortal Andrew Millstone Millbum.

 

Then to make matters worse this boob invites Putritek and Wastefield to Spring Training, as if we didn't already have more than our share of distractions. No my friend, Cherington has already shown that he is not only not big enough for this job but is as close to being an incompetent as any GM in baseball. He is no improvement over the other bum we used to have.

 

The current scenario is not encouraging at all, plus Look at NYY, LAA, Tex, Det and the Rays. Fred, You have watched a lot of baseball and a lot of situations through years in order rate Ben's job and give him a final grade even though the offseason has not ended yet. Your opinion shouldn't be taken lightly in this board. You are a wise man. Expirience has given you a lot of knowladge. On the other hand, I'm not that expirienced. I want to keep my last light of faith. I need to wait till this offseason is over in order to emit an opinion about his job.

[User Name]

trading Youkilis would be a catastrophic mistake, would you feel good about a lineup like this-

 

Ellsbury

Crawford

Gonzales

Pedroia

Ortiz

Mcdonald/Sweeney

Salty/Shoppach

Aviles/Punto

Scutaro

 

The offense struggled the last month of 2011 due to Youkilis injuries, without him there would be no power threat from the rt side and we would see nothing but left handers coming out of the bullpen. I assume the Fo is smarter than anybody on this board and exploring every option out there. Have faith.

 

Really? I would assume Ben Cherington is an idiot by the way some people who've never managed a baseball team or know the reality of this team's finances speak about him on this board. Go figure.

[jung]

I very much want the Sox to keep Youk. I just don't think they can afford him given two things:

1. The box they have put themselves in by keeping Ortiz....both in his cost and the impact it appears to be having on the Sox ability to acquire more pitching and in the fact that he effectively closes off rotating Youk into the DH role as a means of keeping his bat in the lineup while reducing the physical wear on him.

2. Youk's diminishing games per season due to his somewhat brittle physical makeup. He has gone from 145 per down to 136 down to 102 and then 120 last year. Even with that if somebody guaranteed me 100 games at the same rate of production that he had for 120 games last year I would take that even if it cost me the ability to get more pitching. Nobody can give me that guarantee though and if I can only get something like 80 games or maybe less out of him then I gotta' think about how valuable he would be to a team that does have an opening at first base and what I could get via a two team or three way deal.

 

I do not want the Sox to just give him away though. Hence I don't think they should look for trades with teams that need a 3rd baseman as anybody thinking about him at third confronts the same problem we have. They should look for trades with teams that need a 1st baseman. If they don't trade him I can live with that. But I think he is the only guy they can move that could be the centerpiece to a trade that really helps them. Hence I don't think they have a choice but to explore the possibility.

 

Hey it is apparently the Sox themselves that have set the bar. They are unwilling to get more pitching unless they can move salary or so it seems.

[iortiz]

If you mean Salty's catching skills' date=' I think his receiving can improve a good deal. Not sure his throwing can improve much.[/quote']

 

Some are saying that Lav will be the titular C in 2013. If true, those guys who are saying this, maybe do not expect that Salty improves that much.

[Palodios]

Seems stupid to limit his options for that extension the following year too' date=' but I wouldn't be shocked if Oswalt was hesitant to come get his ass kicked in the ALE. I usually like Merloni though and think his analysis is usually pretty strong.[/quote']

 

Oswalt was considering retirement in 2011, and that is why he's willing to take a one year deal. I doubt he's all that worried about 2013.

[jung]

Oswalt was considering retirement in 2011, and that is why he's willing to take a one year deal. I doubt he's all that worried about 2013.

 

So if Oswalt has a decent 2012 you don't think he will try to parley that into something like a 2-3 year deal someplace? Heck these guys have to be dragged kicking and screaming away and you can't blame them for the money they can get.

 

I would say there is at least a chance that Merloni might have something, only a chance though.

[redsoxfan3]

trading Youkilis would be a catastrophic mistake, would you feel good about a lineup like this-

 

Ellsbury

Crawford

Gonzales

Pedroia

Ortiz

Mcdonald/Sweeney

Salty/Shoppach

Aviles/Punto

Scutaro

 

The offense struggled the last month of 2011 due to Youkilis injuries, without him there would be no power threat from the rt side and we would see nothing but left handers coming out of the bullpen. I assume the Fo is smarter than anybody on this board and exploring every option out there. Have faith.

 

He only played in 120 games last year and 102 games the year before. I am hoping that he can improve his numbers offensively. For a career .289 hitter, he only hit .258 last year. Assuming that we do keep him, we will need some more production from him. He did have 17 HR's and 80 RBI's last year. So, if we do lose him, that is true in saying that we will lose some power from a RH hitter. Who else could we trade to free up some money and still get something decent in return? Youkilis is probably the best option. Youkilis is going to be making 12 million next year.

 

You have to look at it one of two ways. We trade Youkilis for a decent right handed hitting RF who can platoon with Sweeney and possibly another decent bullpen arm. That would probably be realistic if we can get rid of his salary. That might be able to give us enough money to be able to sign Oswalt. We would then have our 5th pitcher and, the right handed OF we have all wanted, and another bullpen arm that we could use. That means Aviles starts at 3B for the season. No one knows if Youk will be able to stay healthy the entire year anyways, we still have Pedroia, Aviles, Scutaro, the RH hitting OF, and Salty (switch hitter) as our RH hitters. We have to deal with Aviles at 3B until Middlebrooks is ready in the future, hopefully by 2013. Lavarnway may even be able to add some power to the right side of the plate, but the problem is getting him at bats with Papi at DH and both Salty and Shoppach in front of him at C.

 

The other option is keeping Youkilis, meaning we don't know what to expect out of him with his injuries. I expect him to improve his numbers from last year. That means we probably are stuck with everything as it is. Our offense will be fine, we just have to rely on Silva, Cook, Padilla, etc. as a 5th starter until we can trade for another decent starter sometime during the season. What happens with Youk at this point if we do keep him? If he has another season where he isn't that healthy, it probably doesn't seem likely that we pick up his option for 2013 at 13 million, especially if Will Middlebrooks is ready to go. So in reality, would it be more beneficial to this team to keep him around for one year and hope to expect great numbers from Youk in the middle of the lineup or trade him and get value out of trading for him in return? At this point, it is likely we keep him, just some interesting thoughts. I want to keep Youk just as much as any other fan, but we have to look at the options as well. I am excited about 2013, with Kalish, Lavarnway, and Middlebrooks all potentially making the lineup as everyday guys.

 

The FO will do what they fill is right, but I am sure all of things I have said is crossing their mind. I am not getting paid to make these assessments, that is their job. I just know that this year we will be competing for a wildcard spot with the team that we have. I am more excited about this team in 2013 than I am for next year.

[RedSoxFan84]

I can see that Oswalt is being talked about at the moment. So what is the current train of thought regarding him coming to Boston in 2012? Most of the media articles that I read seem to suggest that we should go after him, and I tend to agree, but I would love to get other posters takes on that.

[redsoxfan3]

I can see that Oswalt is being talked about at the moment. So what is the current train of thought regarding him coming to Boston in 2012? Most of the media articles that I read seem to suggest that we should go after him' date=' and I tend to agree, but I would love to get other posters takes on that.[/quote']

 

Every Boston fan in their right mind would probably love to have Oswalt. I don't think it was ever a question of if we want him as an addition to this team. What it boils down to is whether we have the money to get him. The FO is doing everything possible to stay under the luxury tax. If that is the case and we are actually under the luxury tax, then we will probably not sign him. If we are over the luxury tax, then it is possible that we could sign him. Yesterday, I read in an article that we need to move payroll to free up some money to sign Oswalt. So, to my knowledge, it is likely the FO is pursuing trades to try to free up some room to be able to sign Oswalt at 8 million for one year. I would love for us to sign Oswalt, but at this point it does not seem very likely. I am still holding out hope though, but I am expecting the worst case scenario just in case we cannot sign him.

[RedSoxFan84]

Every Boston fan in their right mind would probably love to have Oswalt. I don't think it was ever a question of if we want him as an addition to this team. What it boils down to is whether we have the money to get him. The FO is doing everything possible to stay under the luxury tax. If that is the case and we are actually under the luxury tax' date=' then we will probably not sign him. If we are over the luxury tax, then it is possible that we could sign him. Yesterday, I read in an article that we need to move payroll to free up some money to sign Oswalt. So, to my knowledge, it is likely the FO is pursuing trades to try to free up some room to be able to sign Oswalt at 8 million for one year. I would love for us to sign Oswalt, but at this point it does not seem very likely. I am still holding out hope though, but I am expecting the worst case scenario just in case we cannot sign him.[/quote']

 

 

 

 

Cool. Thanks for the info.

 

Assuming that what has been said is true, and we are chasing trading partners to free up some money to sign Oswalt, do you have any ideas on who could be on their way out of Boston? I mean when it comes to really valuable trade chips, we have Gonzalez, Pedroia, Ellsbury, the Big Three in the rotation and a few guys like Bard, Bailey, etc who have value because of their potential. Now I really don't want to see any of those guys moved, and I hope that they are all still here in 2012. As far as biggish-money guys who could open up some financial wiggle-room if traded, I'm thinking Youkilis is the most likely guy to be sent on his way. What opinions do you guys have on trading Youkilis? What is the market like for a nearly 33 year old with a contract as big as his? What sort of return should we be expecting (realistically) if he is traded?

[User Name]

None of those guys will be moved. If someone's going out that door, it's most likely Kevin Youkilis indeed.

[redsoxfan3]

Cool. Thanks for the info.

 

Assuming that what has been said is true, and we are chasing trading partners to free up some money to sign Oswalt, do you have any ideas on who could be on their way out of Boston? I mean when it comes to really valuable trade chips, we have Gonzalez, Pedroia, Ellsbury, the Big Three in the rotation and a few guys like Bard, Bailey, etc who have value because of their potential. Now I really don't want to see any of those guys moved, and I hope that they are all still here in 2012. As far as biggish-money guys who could open up some financial wiggle-room if traded, I'm thinking Youkilis is the most likely guy to be sent on his way. What opinions do you guys have on trading Youkilis? What is the market like for a nearly 33 year old with a contract as big as his? What sort of return should we be expecting (realistically) if he is traded?

 

Like User Name? said, Youkilis is probably the best option for a trade. It would be almost impossible to trade a guy like Carl Crawford away. Youkilis has a history of injuries, he isn't getting any younger, and he does have a 12 million dollar contract for 2012, with a club option for 2013. So realistically, it might be hard to trade him. He would be a big bat for another team as a 3B and could even be an option for a team as a DH or 1B. The good thing is there is flexibility with Youkilis, so other teams should like that. Other teams could also like his power numbers. Basically, if a team can overlook his injuries and like his flexibility and they need some improvement offensively, it might not be hard to trade him. Especially since Youk is under team control for two more years. We just need to find the right team, which is the hard part. We cannot probably expect the best return for trading him, especially if we make the move to free up some payroll. Maybe a couple of average players in return.

[Meh]

Like User Name? said' date=' Youkilis is probably the best option for a trade. It would be almost impossible to trade a guy like Carl Crawford away. Youkilis has a history of injuries, he isn't getting any younger, and he does have a 12 million dollar contract for 2012, with a club option for 2013. So realistically, it might be hard to trade him. He would be a big bat for another team as a 3B and could even be an option for a team as a DH or 1B. The good thing is there is flexibility with Youkilis, so other teams should like that. Other teams could also like his power numbers. Basically, if a team can overlook his injuries and like his flexibility and they need some improvement offensively, it might not be hard to trade him. Especially since Youk is under team control for two more years. We just need to find the right team, which is the hard part. We cannot probably expect the best return for trading him, especially if we make the move to free up some payroll. Maybe a couple of average players in return.[/quote']

 

Garcia for youkilis. You clear space, get a 5th starter. able to sign oswalt. We get our dh/3b platoon with arod. Sure the yankees and red sox would never do a trade but it'd be a lot of sense. Bard could return to set up man, aceves could push oswalt, buchholz and garcia to do well.

[User Name]

How does that make sense? Not only would the Yankees and Sox never trade, but Garcia isn't worth Youkilis and the Yankees are probably at their spending limit.

[a700hitter]

I have just about given up hope about the Red Sox picking up a starting pitcher before opening day. First, we heard that they were being patient and waiting for prices to come down. Now, Oswalt is out there like low hanging fruit at $8 million for one year and the story in the press is that the Sox would have to clear cap space. That's the signal that it ain't gonna happen. Someone else will sign him, and the story in the press will be that they couldn't move fast enough to clear the cap space or something like that. I am not expecting any big trades either. We will have to get used to what we've got. It reminds me of a slogan that a Mets fan came up to describe one of their off seasons.

 

"You'll get nothing. You'll pay more for it, and you'll like it."

[MANNYHOF24]

Garcia for youkilis. You clear space' date=' get a 5th starter. able to sign oswalt. We get our dh/3b platoon with arod. Sure the yankees and red sox would never do a trade but it'd be a lot of sense. Bard could return to set up man, aceves could push oswalt, buchholz and garcia to do well.[/quote']

 

This would be a terrible trade for the Red Sox. I'm sorry, I just don't believe that this team needs to trade it's best right handed power threat for virtually nothing, just to sign a pitcher who may produce better results then what we already have.

 

Edit- All reports are saying that Youk is getting into Tony Horton like shape this winter... I feel like he is going to have a huge season.

[seabeachfred]

Have some people gone off the deep end? Youk stays where he is unless Cheringpuke is even more inept than I think he is. We cannot afford to trade our top RH power hitter and be even more stark naked left handed. We need to signs Oswalt ( less chance of that happening with each passing day), and make sure Ortiz is signed to only a ONE year contract so we can move on after this year and not block Lavarnway any longer. Oh yes, I can hear the ******** now---Ryan will be our catcher in 2013 no matter what. Again...********!!!!!!! If Salty has an improved y ear he will still be the catcher and Lav could be blocked again.

 

To me anyway, I just think Prune Face Henry is just giving all Red Sox fans a big middle finger and telling us to f@@k off!!!!! It's take it or leave it. We'll take it because junking the Red Sox for another team even in a fit of deep anger is completely out of the question. But we can take it with a broadside of our own, like not going to Fenway Park, not buying Red Sox gear and doing our part to give Henry back our middle finger. I have no plans this year to fly to Fenway as I do twice a year. Piddle change you say? It is that but if enough people did that and if the press and media pound away at Pruney and his duplicitous SOB of a CEO, we might see some changes the following year, or these suddenly cheap bastards will get the hint, sell the team and get the hell out of Dodge.

[User Name]

Fred, you really need to stop being such a brat.

[FredLynn]

Like User Name? said' date=' Youkilis is probably the best option for a trade. It would be almost impossible to trade a guy like Carl Crawford away. Youkilis has a history of injuries, he isn't getting any younger, and he does have a 12 million dollar contract for 2012, with a club option for 2013. So realistically, it might be hard to trade him. He would be a big bat for another team as a 3B and could even be an option for a team as a DH or 1B. The good thing is there is flexibility with Youkilis, so other teams should like that. Other teams could also like his power numbers. Basically, if a team can overlook his injuries and like his flexibility and they need some improvement offensively, it might not be hard to trade him. Especially since Youk is under team control for two more years. We just need to find the right team, which is the hard part. We cannot probably expect the best return for trading him, especially if we make the move to free up some payroll. Maybe a couple of average players in return.[/quote']

 

I do not trade Youkilis. In fact, I don't think they should make any major moves from where they are right now. Our lineup is too LHH unbalanced already and really, who else do we have that hits for power from the right side besides Youkilis?

Sink or swim with the current roster....and wait 'till next year.

[User Name]

I do not trade Youkilis. In fact, I don't think they should make any major moves from where they are right now. Our lineup is too LHH unbalanced already and really, who else do we have that hits for power from the right side besides Youkilis?

Sink or swim with the current roster....and wait 'till next year.

 

With the Yankees acquiring Pineda, there's even more incentive for the Sox to go with their current staff. By staying under the luxury tax this year, they can be sure they can get a top-tier pitcher next year with the Yanks out of the running.

 

That is, of course, if they manage to stay under the luxury tax. By my calculations, using the link you posted yesterday, they'll be around 172 million for next season (I projected my arb numbers a bit more conservatively), meaning they have enough room to play around with a couple of the re-treads.

 

Only one of the re-treads needs to work out for the sox to have a convincing rotation next season.

 

However, the possibility still exists that they come out holding the short end of the stick in arb, go over the luxury tax, and sign Oswalt anyway because they did.

 

This situation can play itself out a number of ways, and only one (going over the luxury tax without signing the pitcher) could be considered as negative.

[jung]

I don't know how much patience people will have with "waiting till next year" but I do think that is the better option than trying to clear cap space some way. Surely the FO is responsible for exploring ways to improve the team....but at the end of the day now that we have gotten this far into January, a trade is less likely I think and I have not seen a FA SP coming for weeks anyway.

 

I would even be willing to platoon Ortiz a bit to rest Youk some in the DH spot. As far as his conditioning is concerned to me Youk has come into each of these last two seasons looking like an Adonis at least for him and it did not save him from anything in either case. As I said earlier i don't think his issues have anything to do with conditioning. Unfortunately Ortiz would whine and moan like you read about if he did not get his at bats and we would have to deal with him raging around the clubhouse....another hell of a leader that guy turned out to be.

[SoxSport]

The problem with Youks is he lost his position at 1b , and there are doubts now of him holding up physically at 3B, after a year of injuries. That decreases his market value. He has to regain his form to have any real trade value, and I'm not sure he can do that playing 3B at 33. This was another one of those misjudgements by Epstein--thinking players could be moved around like a fantasy team. He did the same thing with Ellsbury.

The Red Sox have a potential problem with Youks that isn't discussed much. He is really DH/1B material at this point, but those positions are blocked in Boston. If they trade him, they are losing the one RHd power bat they have outside of Pedey, and he won't bring much coming off an injury at his age. He pretty much has to hold up at 3B, or they will be in trouble. That's another reason why extending Ortiz was unwise. Youks could have filled the DH role, and Aviles or Middlebrook played 3B. They are probably figuring on that scenario next year. I think they were also concerned the Yankees would grab Ortiz this year if the Sox didn't, though I couldn't see even NY paying him the kind of money he'll get in arbitration.

[MANNYHOF24]

The problem with Youks is he lost his position at 1b , and there are doubts now of him holding up physically at 3B, after a year of injuries. That decreases his market value. He has to regain his form to have any real trade value, and I'm not sure he can do that playing 3B at 33. This was another one of those misjudgements by Epstein--thinking players could be moved around like a fantasy team. He did the same thing with Ellsbury.

The Red Sox have a potential problem with Youks that isn't discussed much. He is really DH/1B material at this point, but those positions are blocked in Boston. If they trade him, they are losing the one RHd power bat they have outside of Pedey, and he won't bring much coming off an injury at his age. He pretty much has to hold up at 3B, or they will be in trouble. That's another reason why extending Ortiz was unwise. Youks could have filled the DH role, and Aviles or Middlebrook played 3B. They are probably figuring on that scenario next year. I think they were also concerned the Yankees would grab Ortiz this year if the Sox didn't, though I couldn't see even NY paying him the kind of money he'll get in arbitration.

 

 

Does playing 3RD base really wear on your body more than playing first?

 

I think Youk will have a productive year this year, and next year he will transition into being the DH, assuming Ortiz walks and Youks team option is picked up.

[SoxSport]

To me anyway' date=' I just think Prune Face Henry is just giving all Red Sox fans a big middle finger and telling us to f@@k off!!!!! It's take it or leave it. We'll take it because junking the Red Sox for another team even in a fit of deep anger is completely out of the question. But we can take it with a broadside of our own, like not going to Fenway Park, not buying Red Sox gear and doing our part to give Henry back our middle finger. I have no plans this year to fly to Fenway as I do twice a year. Piddle change you say? It is that but if enough people did that and if the press and media pound away at Pruney and his duplicitous SOB of a CEO, we might see some changes the following year, or these suddenly cheap bastards will get the hint, sell the team and get the hell out of Dodge.[/quote']

 

I understand it was "prune face" who wanted to bring Ortiz back for another year, in spite of his stonewalling on the luxury tax. Bringing Papi back has pretty much hamstrung Ben from improving the starting pitching, and they are currently using kite string to put a staff together which was their weakest link last year. Ben has made two good deals for the back end of the BP after losing Pap, but the front end of the rotation looks unsteady at this point--vs NY and TB. They need another good starter--whether by FA or trade--to stay competitive on paper.

[SoxSport]

Does playing 3RD base really wear on your body more than playing first?

 

I've read that's the consensus. And it looked that way last year for Youks, with the kind of sports hernia problems he had. The usual switch with age is 3B to 1B--which is what Youks did in the first place.

[MANNYHOF24]

With the Yankees acquiring Pineda, there's even more incentive for the Sox to go with their current staff. By staying under the luxury tax this year, they can be sure they can get a top-tier pitcher next year with the Yanks out of the running.

 

That is, of course, if they manage to stay under the luxury tax. By my calculations, using the link you posted yesterday, they'll be around 172 million for next season (I projected my arb numbers a bit more conservatively), meaning they have enough room to play around with a couple of the re-treads.

 

Only one of the re-treads needs to work out for the sox to have a convincing rotation next season.

 

However, the possibility still exists that they come out holding the short end of the stick in arb, go over the luxury tax, and sign Oswalt anyway because they did.

 

This situation can play itself out a number of ways, and only one (going over the luxury tax without signing the pitcher) could be considered as negative.

 

What would make the Yanks out of the running for a top arm next year? Kuroda will come off the books and Pineda at 23 will still be very cheap. The Yankees will still have the ability to make a major pitching move.

[a700hitter]

Does playing 3RD base really wear on your body more than playing first?

 

I think Youk will have a productive year this year, and next year he will transition into being the DH, assuming Ortiz walks and Youks team option is picked up.

Other than your throwing arm, I think it probably is just as wearing to play first base where you get many more plays every game.

[a700hitter]

What would make the Yanks out of the running for a top arm next year? Kuroda will come off the books and Pineda at 23 will still be very cheap. The Yankees will still have the ability to make a major pitching move.

You can bank on it that they will sign Hamel if he is on the market.

[MANNYHOF24]

I've read that's the consensus. And it looked that way last year for Youks' date=' with the kind of sports hernia problems he had. The usual switch with age is 3B to 1B--which is what Youks did in the first place.[/quote']

 

This is complete conjecture. Youk might have still suffered his sports Hernia had he been playing first base... Also doctors have also said that it is likely that Youk's hernia could have led to his hip problem that initially shut him down. Let's not forget that Youk in 2010 would have been healthy had it not been for a freak thumb accident.

 

The guy is only 32, I think he still has a lot left in the tank. I personally don't believe that playing 3B is that much more demanding than first.

[Meh]

What would make the Yanks out of the running for a top arm next year? Kuroda will come off the books and Pineda at 23 will still be very cheap. The Yankees will still have the ability to make a major pitching move.

 

The Yankees will have over 50 million coming off their books. Ok, we will likely re-sign Martin. (I think he gets 6.5 million this year so 8 million might not be too bad of a number) Same goes for Mo Rivera. The rest is kind of dead weight(felicaino, kurado, garcia, etc) Also I don't see us bringing back Logan so we could save even more money, unless he has a GREAT year. Cause a 3rd time arbi player for an alright lefty is kind of meh in my book. The Yankees will be poised to chase after Hamels or Cain if Hamels doesn't get to the finish line.

 

robertson and Gardner will both likely see big raises, Joba might too. Hughes as well. First time arbi guys are Dickerson and Cervelli. Dickerson will likely be gone by that time too.