2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[redsoxfan3]

[start rant]

I got home from work and I was in disbelief. Michael Pineda and Hiroki Kuroda, really? I have been optimistic up until this point. Pineda and Kuroda improve the Yanks rotation. Hopefully Kuroda will struggle and age will start to become a factor with him. I really like Michael Pineda. A 22 year old with a lot of potential. That could have been huge for the Sox if we could have traded for him. In my opinion he will be a good pitcher for the Yanks for the next several years. There is a positive to this. Kuroda is off the books and the Yanks will not be competing with us to sign a starting pitcher. Jackson is still probably out of the picture because of him wanting a multiyear deal. That leaves us with Oswalt and Saunders as potential signings. I would love for us to sign Oswalt to a 1 year/8 million contract. Saunders would be there if for some reason we cannot sign Oswalt. At this point if we want to compete with the Yankees next year, we need to sign either Oswalt who will probably give us a solid of 170 innings or Saunders who will potentially give us a decent 200 innings. I give props to the Yanks. I will be waiting. Please BC, do everything in your power to sign Oswalt. The Yanks have set the bar, now go out there and match what the Yanks did. Garza is still available, but lately there have been talks that he will probably be starting the season with the Cubs. We need to do something though if we want to compete for the AL East title. At this point we will only be able to compete with the Rays.

[/end rant]

 

All I want is Oswalt, a couple more decent bullpen guys and I will still consider this a decent offseason. Also, does anyone think it would be possible to still sign Oswalt and Saunders? That could give us a rotation of Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, Oswalt, and Saunders. That would keep Bard and Aceves both in the pen and we would be set with our pitching in my opinion. I would love for that to happen, but personally that is probably unrealistic.

[SoxFanForsyth]

We need to get an updated payroll for the Sox in terms of LT.

 

If we dished Youk for Jurrjens, it would save us about 7.3mm in AAV (Jurrjens 1/3.25mm, Youk 4/42mm).

 

Take that extra 7.3mm and give Oswalt a 5.5mm + incentive laden deal which could boost him to 8mm if he reaches 230 IP (maybe $500k for every 10 IP after 190 IP).

 

Then you have a rotation of Lester - Beckett - Buchholz - Jurrjens - Oswalt, and a bullpen that has Aceves, Melancon, Bard, and Bailey.

[SoxFanForsyth]

And by the way, if it netted us Oswalt and Jurrjens, I wouldn't mind making Aviles our starting 3B.

[italstallianion]

We need to get an updated payroll for the Sox in terms of LT.

 

If we dished Youk for Jurrjens, it would save us about 7.3mm in AAV (Jurrjens 1/3.25mm, Youk 4/42mm).

 

Take that extra 7.3mm and give Oswalt a 5.5mm + incentive laden deal which could boost him to 8mm if he reaches 230 IP (maybe $500k for every 10 IP after 190 IP).

 

Then you have a rotation of Lester - Beckett - Buchholz - Jurrjens - Oswalt, and a bullpen that has Aceves, Melancon, Bard, and Bailey.

 

 

At this point I'd offer Oswalt 7.5 million if we can get him right now.

[Elktonnick]

And by the way' date=' if it netted us Oswalt and Jurrjens, I wouldn't mind making Aviles our starting 3B.[/quote']

 

I thought the same. Let's not forget we've got Middlebrooks who while not ready now could be soon.

[jung]

Not sure what to think at this point at least as regards the Sox actually making a FA acquisition. Ya gotta' figure that the Sox knew Kurota was gone before we did because they had to at least have been in the discussion. At $10-$11 they would have been bounced out earlier than today I think.

 

Oswalt had first been candid about only wanting 1 year. If the reports that he was willing to deal at $8M are true that has been out there long enough now as well. I have to think at this point that the Sox don't like $8M.

 

Think there is every chance at this point that they are going with what they have. That will disappoint some and be a relief for others. It is what it is.

 

To be honest based on what just happened i question the validity of the reports of Oswalt's willingness to deal at $8M. He may not go for much more than that but I now doubt he is going for less. If the Sox were on with him, we would have likely seen a Sox announcement on Oswalt right on top of the Yankee announcements. Once you get to Saunders, you are pretty much down there where if the Sox have not crossed the LT threshold yet they would not likely cross it to take Saunders. So in reality I think it is Oswalt or nothing and since we have not had an announcement today, it is likely going to be nothing. Just my opinion of course.

[NativeBostonian]

The Red Sox now have to sign Oswalt. They are going to be screwed if they don't. Their pitching staff is now behind the Yankees.

[jung]

Good thinkin' about Youk and cap space. I had thought about that a few weeks ago when I first posted about it but had lost track of that aspect since then. Depends on who comes in what kind of deal. Ya' wanna' get value for Youk. We might have to get lucky to trade Youk and not end up taking back as much salary as we give. Very good idea though and I would certainly be trying to clear myself some space if I were the Sox.

[iortiz]

Next season will be 2 wild cards, right?.... right? :dunno:

[jung]

Kinda' wish the Sox had worked aggressively to do a Youk deal already. Of there was a way to squeeze some cap space out of that deal we would know it already and could be using that money right now. It is almost like they don't see the corner they have been boxed into by the Ortiz deal.

 

Christ they are beginning to remind me of the old Soviet economic strategies. Gotta take one step backwards hoping to take two steps forward.

[FredLynn]

The Red Sox now have to sign Oswalt. They are going to be screwed if they don't. Their pitching staff is now behind the Yankees.

 

We are only screwed for one year. If we exceed the cap this year we are screwed for many years.

[italstallianion]

We are only screwed for one year. If we exceed the cap this year we are screwed for many years.

 

We're already going to be over the cap. Signing Oswalt won't make a difference other than paying more money in the form of a tax in addition to what we pay Oswalt. Unless we dump salaries without signing anyone to replace them, we aren't going to be under the cap this year. That's a given.

[FredLynn]

We're already going to be over the cap. Signing Oswalt won't make a difference other than paying more money in the form of a tax in addition to what we pay Oswalt. Unless we dump salaries without signing anyone to replace them' date=' we aren't going to be under the cap this year. That's a given.[/quote']

 

There seems to be some confusion about that. I am not sure that we really are over the cap. If we are, how much are we over by? I don't fully understand where we are with the cap right now. I asked that earlier and no one really knew for sure. If you are right and we are already over, then sure, lets sign Oswalt and Wheeler.

[italstallianion]

While I'm too lazy to get into accounting at the moment, everything I've read says that unless we sell the team, we're over the cap. Not by that much, but enough for it to not make sense to sign players that make the team better for fearing of going over the cap. The real question is whether the Sox can get under the cap in the future. I'm pretty confident in that.

[iortiz]

There seems to be some confusion about that. I am not sure that we really are over the cap. If we are' date=' how much are we over by? I don't fully understand where we are with the cap right now. I asked that earlier and no one really knew for sure. If you are right and we are already over, then sure, lets sign Oswalt and Wheeler.[/quote']

 

According with Palodios who BTW is very good doing our financials, He estimates that we are currently under the cap, so...

[jung]

Honestly I am not sure anybody on the outside looking in knows for sure if they are over or not at this point. They got to right on top of the cap and then basically had done nothing to really drive it over such that you could say they were definitely over. If they signed either Karoda or Oswalt there would be no doubt. That much is sure. Myself I thought they were about $2M under.

 

In fact they know where they are and they would likely view additional signings to get pitching exactly as it has been described. What I mean is that the fact that they have balked on Karoda and look like they are balking on Oswalt may be the surest signs that they are not in fact over. However again they got very close and then did nothing to definitively push them over. I don't think any of us really know what side of the line they are on at this point. I do wish the knucklehead media would just ask the question. They ask all sorts of stupid meaningless questions. It would be nice to know the answer to that one.

[iortiz]

To sum up the off season thus far. The Yankees have added two pitchers to their rotation-- Pineda and Kuroda. The Red Sox have replaced their closer Papelbon with an injury prone Bailey and added Melancon. I don't think we have closed the 7 game gap in the standings.

 

I hate to say it, but this is damn true. Ben better wake up and right away, Unless Pumpsie's prophesy is in effect.

[jung]

I should point out that once you get to within a couple million $ you have to start to deal with the additional debits and credits to the cap. Insurance on contracts is a debit. Any of us know how much they have tied up in insurance premiums on contracts? There are credits that go the other way. I think this is in part why this gets tough to figure unless they just go busting through the cap at which point you can say definitively that they are over.

[SoxSport]

Well, they screwed themselves capwise by offering Ortiz arbitration. That restricted their pitching options if they were going to stay under the cap. They made their bed, and now they'll have to live in it.

 

The Yankees operate on a different plane. The one team that makes a living being over the cap. That they haven't been successful lately in the playoffs just gives them incentive to spend more. In my view, they wasted $10 mil on Kuroda, who inflated his numbers in his contract year (wonder how those guys can do that--seems so common), and is too old. But they made a good deal for Pineda for a kid Montero, who may be a typical overhyped Yankee rookie. If the kid can't catch, he isn't worth a promising young starter.

Seattle has traded two good young starters, Fister and Pineda, to AL teams. All the Red Sox were able to get from them was broken down Bedard. Seems Henry should expect his GMs to do better than that.

[example1]

I hate to say it' date=' but this is damn true. Ben better wake up and right away, Unless Pumpsie's prophesy is in effect. [/quote']

 

It's true, but it also understates the notion (not intentionally) that the Yankees didn't just get Pineda. They traded arguibly the best offensive prospect the Yankees or Sox have had in a long, long time to get him. Montero is probably a Cano caliber bat, maybe better. I don't think it is unrealistic to think that he would have been a middle order bat for them, even with their usual cast of All-Stars and I, for one, will be happy to have one fewer Yankee-bred masher to face 19 times a year.

 

Pinada has a very strong arm. He has he potential to be a top-of-rotation starter. I'm just not sad to see Montero go at all. Honestly I'm kind of shocked the Yankees parted with him for Pineda.

[SoxSport]

I hate to say it' date=' but this is damn true. Ben better wake up and right away, Unless Pumpsie's prophesy is in effect. [/quote']

 

That 7 game gap, by the way, was mainly due to the absence of Buchholz in the starting rotation. They'll be better this year, though they would have added another starter by now if they were the Yankees. They still don't have a lot of depth in the starting rotation.

[seabeachfred]

No matter how you slice it my friends, today was a miserable day for Red Sox fans and to think I celebrated it wearing my new Red Sox Nation shirt my wife got me yesterday. If I didn't love the team so much I would tear it off and burn it.

 

Just think what the Yankees did. They added two starters to their rotation in one swoop; they now can put Burnett and Hughes in the pen, a helluva lot better situation that we have. What have we done? I can call it on Cheringpuke now. He is not big enough for the job; he is not only a procrastinating dufus but inept in every sense of the word. We can only hope now that Prune Face sells the team and a new owner's first order of business is to change the locks on Lucchinturd and Cheringpuke's office and tell them to get the hell out of Dodge. I am in a rage right now.

[jung]

Why shocked to give up hitting for a guy with the potential to be at the top of your starting rotation. Look it just about does not matter who you are talking about as a hitter unless you are talking about one of the top five hitters in the league. Giving up a guy that would be in your #5 hole in the lineup for a guy that is young with the very real potential to go to the top of your rotation does not sound like an irrational move to me.

 

As for the Yanks and their willingness to exceed the cap even at 50% which is their tax rate now, they make so much more money than everybody else that in all honesty I have to defend the Sox on this one. Just cannot expect the Sox to play the spend game head to head with the Yankees. Nobody can do that. Yankee revenue line is about $480M per year. Sox are kinda' around $260M as I recall. I can find the numbers. It almost does not matter. The difference is huge.

[example1]

No matter how you slice it my friends, today was a miserable day for Red Sox fans and to think I celebrated it wearing my new Red Sox Nation shirt my wife got me yesterday. If I didn't love the team so much I would tear it off and burn it.

 

Just think what the Yankees did. They added two starters to their rotation in one swoop; they now can put Burnett and Hughes in the pen, a helluva lot better situation that we have. What have we done? I can call it on Cheringpuke now. He is not big enough for the job; he is not only a procrastinating dufus but inept in every sense of the word. We can only hope now that Prune Face sells the team and a new owner's first order of business is to change the locks on Lucchinturd and Cheringpuke's office and tell them to get the hell out of Dodge. I am in a rage right now.

 

Clearly. The Yankees trade essentially equal talent for a relatively unproven #2 pitcher, and sign Kuroda, and you're ready to judge a GM who is 3-4 months into his job and who, by all appearances, is working to stay under the cap by request.

 

That last part is frustrating, but the Yankees didnt just land Felix Hernandez for a bucket of baseballs. Let's see how Kuroda does in the AL East and let this all play out.

[example1]

Why shocked to give up hitting for a guy with the potential to be at the top of your starting rotation. Look it just about does not matter who you are talking about as a hitter unless you are talking about one of the top five hitters in the league. Giving up a guy that would be in your #5 hole in the lineup for a guy that is young with the very real potential to go to the top of your rotation does not sound like an irrational move to me.

 

Not too long ago there were many on this board saying they would never trade a superstar position player for a superstar pitcher. I disagreed, but the argument is a solid one. The Yankees needed pitching more than they needed hitting, but not by a lot. Montero is an elite bat at the most offensively weak position in the game. This isn't all bad.

[iortiz]

It's true' date=' but it also understates the notion (not intentionally) that the Yankees didn't just [i']get[/i] Pineda. They traded arguibly the best offensive prospect the Yankees or Sox have had in a long, long time to get him. Montero is probably a Cano caliber bat, maybe better. I don't think it is unrealistic to think that he would have been a middle order bat for them, even with their usual cast of All-Stars and I, for one, will be happy to have one fewer Yankee-bred masher to face 19 times a year.

 

Pinada has a very strong arm. He has he potential to be a top-of-rotation starter. I'm just not sad to see Montero go at all. Honestly I'm kind of shocked the Yankees parted with him for Pineda.

 

They must win every season. They usually put an elite team every season. With these moves (Kuroda and Pineda), today, they are the #1 candidate to win the ALE. Is he Cano caliber bat? Maybe yes, maybe no. He is still a promise. A great one BTW, but a promise. I'm not that surprised about this. I would give up Lavarnway or Kalish for Pineda in a heartbeat.

[SCM33]

To sum up the off season thus far. The Yankees have added two pitchers to their rotation-- Pineda and Kuroda. The Red Sox have replaced their closer Papelbon with an injury prone Bailey and added Melancon. I don't think we have closed the 7 game gap in the standings.

 

I havent posted much lately, well....because I have nothing good to say, so I was always taught to not say anything at all.

 

Todays news of the Yankees is troublesome for me.

 

I wanted them to clean house....to some extent they did, but now there is news of Varitek being invited to spring training? Really?

 

Right now, we are a worse team than we were last year, and we arent finishing above third place. Depending on how Toronto plays, we might not even finish there. Are they (Toronto) better than 81 wins? Maybe...their whole rotation is 26 or younger and most likely better this year than last. Are we worse than 90 wins????At this point is it easy to say we are better than the 90 wins???

 

We are a third to fourth place team right now. We have a solid offense.....our pitching is a f***ing mess and we are running out of options and time before spring training.

 

Varitek.....are you s***ing me, we have to go through this again?

[seabeachfred]

Not too long ago there were many on this board saying they would never trade a superstar position player for a superstar pitcher. I disagreed' date=' but the argument is a solid one. The Yankees needed pitching more than they needed hitting, but not by a lot. Montero is an elite bat at the most offensively weak position in the game. This isn't all bad.[/quote']

 

I really don't give a crap what the Yankees did if we would have been in there doing something ourselves. No doubt Cherington has been under orders to keep within the salary structure but we're not talking about a poor team. Prune Face is a billionaire and he can afford to put money up to strengthen the team, but he seems determined to pinch his pennies this year until they scream for mercy. We are not ready to take on the Yankees or Rays and won't be until we upgrade and we both know what I mean by upgrade.

 

Long day. I'm just good and pissed off EX1 and the rest of you, and instead of fuming and ruining your e vening I will bid you all a fair adieu until tomorrow. Good night!!!!!!!

[example1]

They must win every season. They usually put an elite team every season. With these moves (Kuroda and Pineda)' date=' today, they are the #1 candidate to win the ALE. Is he Cano caliber bat? Maybe yes, maybe no. He is still a promise. A great one BTW, but a promise. I'm not that surprised about this. I would give up Lavarnway or Kalish for Pineda in a heartbeat.[/quote']

 

And just about every prospect ranking had Montero well above Lavarnway or Kalish. He was a top 5 prospect in 2011 according to just about every prospect evaluator I can find.

 

As for him being still a promise, how established is Pineda? One year under his belt?

[iortiz]

No matter how you slice it my friends, today was a miserable day for Red Sox fans and to think I celebrated it wearing my new Red Sox Nation shirt my wife got me yesterday. If I didn't love the team so much I would tear it off and burn it.

 

Just think what the Yankees did. They added two starters to their rotation in one swoop; they now can put Burnett and Hughes in the pen, a helluva lot better situation that we have. What have we done? I can call it on Cheringpuke now. He is not big enough for the job; he is not only a procrastinating dufus but inept in every sense of the word. We can only hope now that Prune Face sells the team and a new owner's first order of business is to change the locks on Lucchinturd and Cheringpuke's office and tell them to get the hell out of Dodge. I am in a rage right now.

 

+1. This is not a good Friday Fred.