2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[seabeachfred]

I guess it just comes down to the fact that I really want him to retire in a Red Sox uniform. I think if the Sox don't sign him' date=' he is going to sign somewhere else and I would hate that.[/quote']

 

That's just the point---NO HE WON'T. When he became a free agent after 2008 how many offers did he get before the Red Sox buckled and signed him up again? NONE!!!!!!! After his two year pact ended after 2010, how many offers did he receive from other teams before the Red Sox buckled and crashed again? The same... NONE!!!!!!! After last season and up to now, how many offers has Putritek gotten??? Again...NONE!!!!!!!!!! If the Red Sox has shown any guts in this matter Varitek would have been out of baseball after the 2008 season. He got three more years of playing time because of the stupidity of the Red Sox. That was three years too many and it time for him to go away.

[jung]

To some extent offering Tek a spring training invite is the same mistake all be it at a much lower level that offering Ortiz arbitration was. Oh lets offer Ortiz arbitration. He won't take it and we will pick up draft picks when another team picks him up. Sure you will.

 

Oh lets offer Tek a spring training invite with no guarantees...he won't show up. Sure he won't. STUPID!

[seabeachfred]

The verdict is in.....Cherington is a cheringpuke, pure and simple. He hasn't he ability or the guts to make a tough decision and his performance this winter has been nothing short of crappy. As some of us kept repeating over and over again, those prices for pitchers were not coming down. And they didn't. If we want Oswalt we are going to have to pay for it, but Cheringpuke hasn't the guts to tell Lucchino and Henry to fork over some money so he doesn't look like the complete boob he probably is.

 

Cherries, you suck!!!! And you actually be worse than Epstein....if that is possible.

[Elktonnick]

To some extent offering Tek a spring training invite is the same mistake all be it at a much lower level that offering Ortiz arbitration was. Oh lets offer Ortiz arbitration. He won't take it and we will pick up draft picks when another team picks him up. Sure you will.

 

Oh lets offer Tek a spring training invite with no guarantees...he won't show up. Sure he won't. STUPID!

 

The news about Tek is infuriating but expected, The news about theYankees is depressing and far more serious.

[Spitball]

Pineda's stats look better because of his Safeco splits, and Kuroda put up his numbers in the NL. I'm not worried about the MFY.

[jung]

The news about Tek is infuriating but expected, The news about theYankees is depressing and far more serious.

 

Well I sort of view them as equally irritating. i never expected the Sox to end up with this highly discussed and sought after #4 starter because I did not think the prices were coming down and I did not think the Sox were going to meet the market. So for me, this "reality" sank in weeks and weeks ago. It will likely be harder for other folks to take and I completely understand that.

 

This Tek thing is just maddening in a completely different way. They don't have the time to waste dicking around with Tek. Just stop. Who the crap do they think they are? As far as I am concerned they are still the shambles of a team that fell apart last year until they prove otherwise. So go ahead Red Sox and dick around with Tek.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Pineda's stats look better because of his Safeco splits' date=' and Kuroda put up his numbers in the NL. I'm not worried about the MFY.[/quote']

 

Thank you.

 

Pineda had a 4.40 ERA in road games.

 

Vs the AL East?

 

Yankees: 5.40 ERA

Toronto: 5.30 ERA

Red Sox: 14.54 ERA

 

I know he's got a big arm, he's young, and he's cheap, but I would have rather had Montero than Pineda, and I would say that Pineda posts a 4.20-4.50 ERA next year.

[Elktonnick]

Well I sort of view them as equally irritating. i never expected the Sox to end up with this highly discussed and sought after #4 starter because I did not think the prices were coming down and I did not think the Sox were going to meet the market. So for me, this "reality" sank in weeks and weeks ago. It will likely be harder for other folks to take and I completely understand that.

 

This Tek thing is just maddening in a completely different way. They don't have the time to waste dicking around with Tek. Just stop. Who the crap do they think they are? As far as I am concerned they are still the shambles of a team that fell apart last year until they prove otherwise. So go ahead Red Sox and dick around with Tek.

 

That's what I find maddening about Tek . It is a distraction that sets back attempts to move on from the llast year's debacle.

[a700hitter]

The verdict is in.....Cherington is a cheringpuke, pure and simple. He hasn't he ability or the guts to make a tough decision and his performance this winter has been nothing short of crappy. As some of us kept repeating over and over again, those prices for pitchers were not coming down. And they didn't. If we want Oswalt we are going to have to pay for it, but Cheringpuke hasn't the guts to tell Lucchino and Henry to fork over some money so he doesn't look like the complete boob he probably is.

 

Cherries, you suck!!!! And you actually be worse than Epstein....if that is possible.

He's done basically nothing. We are so news starved that we got giddy over getting a guy who throws 40 innings a year with a bad elbow to replace Papelbon. He got a guy Melancon from the Stros and a catcher that can't hit .200 in Shoppach. This is really like a Mets off season, and they are on the fringe of bankruptcy.

[FredLynn]

Thank you.

 

Pineda had a 4.40 ERA in road games.

 

Vs the AL East?

 

Yankees: 5.40 ERA

Toronto: 5.30 ERA

Red Sox: 14.54 ERA

 

I know he's got a big arm, he's young, and he's cheap, but I would have rather had Montero than Pineda, and I would say that Pineda posts a 4.20-4.50 ERA next year.

 

There are lots of guys who have big arms who failed in the majors, especially in the ALE. Lets see what he can do in the pressure cooker that is NY.

Meanwhile, the Red Sox are doing very well, spending nothing, waiting until next year. This IMO is the correct approach. They cannot afford to exceed the cap this year if they want to exceed it next year. We should NOT be going after Oswalt, even if it makes us a better team this year. Its all about the future now.

[jacksonianmarch]

Thank you.

 

Pineda had a 4.40 ERA in road games.

 

Vs the AL East?

 

Yankees: 5.40 ERA

Toronto: 5.30 ERA

Red Sox: 14.54 ERA

 

I know he's got a big arm, he's young, and he's cheap, but I would have rather had Montero than Pineda, and I would say that Pineda posts a 4.20-4.50 ERA next year.

 

His road ERA is skewed. His road numbers that he can control?

 

1.17WHIP, 8.7K/9IP, 2.5BB/9IP. Those numbers are ace like. It had nothing to do with Safeco

[jung]

Well, It would be hard to call either the Yankee's or Red Sox SP stabile or set or strong points today. So the Yankees got Kuroda...big deal. However in spite of my comments about the chances of the Sox landing him, in my view the Sox needed him more than the Yankees did. So to some extent this is less about the Yankees getting him and more about the Sox losing him. Prices are NOT coming down for SP. No s*** Sherlock. So where does that leave the Sox rotation? Right where it is I guess unless they trade for some additional pitching.

 

As unlikely as that seems to some of you, that is more likely than the cost for SP coming down in this market.

[example1]

I'm not pleased with the acquisitions by the Yankees. Longterm, I'm glad they lost Montero, but short term they added Kuroda and that makes their rotation stronger in one swoop. Of course, it's two RHP and the Sox can handle RHP pretty well. I'm glad it wasn't a tough lefty to complement CC.

 

If the Sox add a pitcher like Oswalt or Jackson on a one year deal then I will feel better. If they stand pat then their hill just got quite a bit harder to climb.

 

Am I writing them off? Not at all. In fact, I think the new additions should light a fire under the Sox players and pitchers to prove that they aren't a slouch.

 

However, like everyone else, I'm human and when the Yankees make some big moves it makes me want the Sox to do the same. Stupid emotions!

[a700hitter]

Well, It would be hard to call either the Yankee's or Red Sox SP stabile or set or strong points today. So the Yankees got Kuroda...big deal. However in spite of my comments about the chances of the Sox landing him, in my view the Sox needed him more than the Yankees did. So to some extent this is less about the Yankees getting him and more about the Sox losing him. Prices are NOT coming down for SP. No s*** Sherlock. So where does that leave the Sox rotation? Right where it is I guess unless they trade for some additional pitching.

 

As unlikely as that seems to some of you, that is more likely than the cost for SP coming down in this market.

I think you are probably right. The prices are not going to come down.

[Spitball]

I'm not worried about Pineda or Kuroda, but with Montero gone, who DHs for the Yankees? Do they sign Fielder or Damon? I certainly hope not. At least Montero was an uncertain.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yankees rotation isnt stable? They just added Kuroda AND Pineda to their rotation and effectively subtracted Burnett and moved Hughes to the pen. The entire staff just got a major lift. The question I had last yr that still needs to be answered is if the Yankees offense can hold. I thought the major red flag last yr was that their offense put up huge numbers but came up flat as the postseason rolled around. Having a young, generation bat in the system to team with Cano and Tex long term would have gone a long way to fixing that issue. Now, we have a hole there. I have a feeling we are going to see a LOT more Nunez this yr at 3b than was initally expected. My guess is the whole Germany treatment with ARod's knee didnt inspire much confidence that he could remain in the field long term. But overall, to add a 22 yr old, large framed, control pitcher with power and punchout ability is a massive upgrade to a rotation that had a lot of ???'s after CC and Nova

[jung]

The biggest thing that BC did this off season was a gigantic error. I know it is beating a dead horse but offering Ortiz arbitration boxed the Sox into a nasty corner. It was like hearing all the tumblers of a lock fall into place all at once. $15M gone that could have gone for pitching. No relief for Youk at 3rd almost making it an imperative to trade him. No rest for AGons at 1st. Larvarnway effectively blocked from any DH time at all.

 

I have been calling for the Sox to find the way to cobble together a deal to send Youk off since then. However seeing how they are handling Tek makes me think there is not a snowballs chance in hell of the Sox even thinking along those lines. If some poor FO schmuck even mentioned it they would probably look at him like he had four heads and the poor guy would probably go off to polish up his resume.

[example1]

Well, It would be hard to call either the Yankee's or Red Sox SP stabile or set or strong points today. So the Yankees got Kuroda...big deal. However in spite of my comments about the chances of the Sox landing him, in my view the Sox needed him more than the Yankees did. So to some extent this is less about the Yankees getting him and more about the Sox losing him. Prices are NOT coming down for SP. No s*** Sherlock. So where does that leave the Sox rotation? Right where it is I guess unless they trade for some additional pitching.

 

As unlikely as that seems to some of you, that is more likely than the cost for SP coming down in this market.

 

FWIW, MLB trade rumors had a post today titled "Asking price drops for Oswalt, Kuroda and Jackson". They listed Kuroda's price as 10-11m and that's basically what he got... DOWN from where it was before. Oswalt is down to 8 apparently.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/asking-price-drops-for-oswalt-kuroda-jackson.html

 

Not that MLB TR is gospel, but it does fly directly in the face of what you are saying above.

[a700hitter]

Red Sox Avoid Arbitration With Ryan Sweeney

By Mark Polishuk [January 13 at 8:10pm CST]

 

The Red Sox have agreed to a one-year, $1.75MM deal with Ryan Sweeney, reports The Associated Press. The deal allows Boston to avoid going to arbitration with Sweeney, who was arb-eligible for the second time in his career. Sweeney is represented by Reynolds Sports Management.

 

Sweeney was acquired by the Sox as part of the Andrew Bailey trade last month. The left-handed batter hit .265/.346/.341 in 299 plate appearances for the A's last season and is currently slated to be part of a right field platoon at Fenway Park next year.

 

Matt Swartz projected Sweeney to earn $1.6MM in arbitration this winter. The Red Sox have eight more arb-eligible players, as per MLBTR's Arbitration Tracker, including such big names as Bailey, David Ortiz, Jacoby Ellsbury and Daniel Bard.

I guess this is the big news today for the Red Sox. Ben and Cherries has probably worked all week crunching the numbers on this deal.

[jung]

Sure jacksonmarch, a major lift from CC and pray for rain. I hardly think it is a great rotation at this point. However I am not sure the Yanks will have to worry that much about the Sox this year.

 

The difference is that getting past the Sox no longer guarantees the Yanks of very much.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Yankees rotation isnt stable? They just added Kuroda AND Pineda to their rotation and effectively subtracted Burnett and moved Hughes to the pen. The entire staff just got a major lift. The question I had last yr that still needs to be answered is if the Yankees offense can hold. I thought the major red flag last yr was that their offense put up huge numbers but came up flat as the postseason rolled around. Having a young' date=' generation bat in the system to team with Cano and Tex long term would have gone a long way to fixing that issue. Now, we have a hole there. I have a feeling we are going to see a LOT more Nunez this yr at 3b than was initally expected. My guess is the whole Germany treatment with ARod's knee didnt inspire much confidence that he could remain in the field long term. But overall, to add a 22 yr old, large framed, control pitcher with power and punchout ability is a massive upgrade to a rotation that had a lot of ???'s after CC and Nova[/quote']

 

I just posted this in the Damn Yankees thread, but I'll post it here, too.

 

Kuroda is a good #4-#5 pitcher. He's not someone I would ever want to count on in a top 3 of the rotation, or in a post season match up.

 

That said, if Hughes steps up, he could take the #3 spot.

 

To be honest, I was never all that impressed with Pineda. He's a big guy, got a big arm, but he gets torched in small parks.

 

Not trying to be biased, but I don't think the Yankees rotation got all that much better to be honest. Look at last year.

 

You had Colon who posted a 111 ERA+ that you are replacing with Pineda, who posted a 103 ERA+.

 

Long term, definitely a big step in the right direction. But it's kind of like when the Sox replaced Beltre and Vic with Gonzo and Crawford. In 2011, the production was projected to be similar. But going forward, you were getting much more production with Gonzo and Crawford than you were with Vic and Beltre.

 

The big step is obviously Kuroda (121 ERA+) over Burnett (86 ERA+). But - a lot of that will be offset if Kuroda returns to his career norm of around a 111 ERA+, and if Garcia returns to his career norm of around a 109 ERA+ (he had a 122 ERA+ in 2011).

 

Summary -

 

Pineda + Kuroda (2011 numbers) = 224 ERA+

 

Burnett + Colon (2011 numbers) = 197 ERA+

 

If Kuroda and/or Garcia return to career numbers, that would offset that quite a bit more (anywhere from 201-214 for Pineda + Kuroda).

 

Looking at the numbers a little closer, I'm not all that impressed. I don't think they made as big of an addition as it's being made out to be.

[jung]

Well then you have to believe that Kurota was going to get more like $13 or more and that is to much to believe. I choose not to believe the report as $10-11 is exactly were we thought he would be all along, not just in the last 5 minutes.

 

Are you trying to make the case that the price of SP coming down is not a fantasy in this market. Good luck Alice....the line in front of the looking glass is right over there.

[Elktonnick]

The biggest thing that BC did this off season was a gigantic error. I know it is beating a dead horse but offering Ortiz arbitration boxed the Sox into a nasty corner. It was like hearing all the tumblers of a lock fall into place all at once. $15M gone that could have gone for pitching. No relief for Youk at 3rd almost making it an imperative to trade him. No rest for AGons at 1st. Larvarnway effectively blocked from any DH time at all.

 

I have been calling for the Sox to find the way to cobble together a deal to send Youk off since then. However seeing how they are handling Tek makes me think there is not a snowballs chance in hell of the Sox even thinking along those lines. If some poor FO schmuck even mentioned it they would probably look at him like he had four heads and the poor guy would probably go off to polish up his resume.

 

I have posted over the past few weeks that I thought the Braves and Red Sox would be natural trade partners either directly or as part of a three way deal involving Youk. While we have heard nothing, I still have hope. I still think Youk is more valuable as trade bait than anything else.

[jung]

I have posted over the past few weeks that I thought the Braves and Red Sox would be natural trade partners either directly or as part of a three way deal involving Youk. While we have heard nothing, I still have hope. I still think Youk is more valuable as trade bait than anything else.

 

Remember seeing those Elk and I do think you are probably right. Think there are multiple possibilities there and frankly I have not spent time trying to figure out which one i think works best both ways. Any ideas?

[Elktonnick]

Remember seeing those Elk and I do think you are probably right. Think there are multiple possibilities there and frankly I have not spent time trying to figure out which one i think works best both ways. Any ideas?

 

I haven't kept up with what the Braves have done but they need infielders and hitting Chipper is getting old. They have 7 starters more or less I had thought a direct deal with either Lowrie or Scutoro but since Lowrie is gone that is out. Youk is possible now but probably only in a three way deal unless Chipper is not able to play this year. He will be 40.The Braves really need a SS. I had thought Marlins Red Sox Braves but Hanley says he'll now play third. The Braves seem set at 1st.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I haven't kept up with what the Braves have done but they need infielders and hitting Chipper is getting old. They have 7 starters more or less I had thought a direct deal with either Lowrie or Scutoro but since Lowrie is gone that is out. Youk is possible now but probably only in a three way deal unless Chipper is not able to play this year. He will be 40.The Braves really need a SS. I had thought Marlins Red Sox Braves but Hanley says he'll now play third. The Braves seem set at 1st.

 

Braves need a power hitter of some sort. Either a corner OF spot or at 3B.

 

They could deal Jurrjens and get away with it. I'm not a huge Jurrjens fan, but I'd go Youk + 1 mid level prospect for Jurrjens. Both have injury concerns.

[italstallianion]

I'd rather wait on Middlebrooks a bit before trading Youk. I'd rather trade just prospects for Jurrjens. Or even better, just sign Oswalt for the $8 million!!!!

[iortiz]

Wow! I just came back from the gym and the damn Yankees got Pineda and Kuroda just like that? Benny, Benny...

[example1]

Well then you have to believe that Kurota was going to get more like $13 or more and that is to much to believe. I choose not to believe the report as $10-11 is exactly were we thought he would be all along, not just in the last 5 minutes.

 

Are you trying to make the case that the price of SP coming down is not a fantasy in this market. Good luck Alice....the line in front of the looking glass is right over there.

 

I'm merely pointing out that another site had a headline that was directly contradictory to what you said.

 

Kuroda just got less than was speculated and less than he was asking for. Oswalt was asking for more than 8m. I realize this goes against what you were saying throughout, but it is a natural economic phenomenon: teams aren't willing to pay what they are asking, their asking price comes down when teams don't blink.

 

I'm not saying they will get one of these guys for 5m, but Boras was asking for Jackson to get 5 years and Oswalt was asking for more a few weeks ago. That means their price as come down.

[Elktonnick]

Braves need a power hitter of some sort. Either a corner OF spot or at 3B.

 

They could deal Jurrjens and get away with it. I'm not a huge Jurrjens fan, but I'd go Youk + 1 mid level prospect for Jurrjens. Both have injury concerns.

That is more or less what has been discussed. I heard it first on MLB radio about two weeks ago. Forgot who proposed it there.