2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

no' date=' I would take Aceves over Bard. I think Bard is more valuable where he was at then as a starter.[/quote']

 

If you want to put Aceves over Bard, fine. But please no both.

[User Name]

4.- Yes' date=' It's foolish to roll the dice for a few million when the reputation of a billion dollar enterprise is at stake. We are running today as a 7-10 team seeded. It's not encouraging.[/quote']

 

You're missing the point. The main reason they're so reluctant to throw money around this year is because the next couple of years is going to have two really strong FA markets. Do you want to tie yourself for multiple years/high dollar value to mediocre talent and forego the better talent in the future?

 

It's not all about "win now". You need to win later too.

[iortiz]

You're missing the point. The main reason they're so reluctant to throw money around this year is because the next couple of years is going to have two really strong FA markets. Do you want to tie yourself for multiple years/high dollar value to mediocre talent and forego the better talent in the future?

 

It's not all about "win now". You need to win later too.

 

I'm agree. Totally agree.

 

But Madson and Garza won't clogg our "future" in the way I see the thing. They are solid pieces. And with them you can win this season as well. These acquisitions won't make you weaker in the future, but the opposite.

[User Name]

I'm I agree. Totally agree.

 

But Madson and Garza won't clogg our "future" in the way I see the thing. They are solid pieces. And with them you can win this season as well. This acquisitions won't make you weaker in the future.

 

It depends on Madson's price. But Garza would cost a lot of high-tier talent, which hamstrings you for the future either way. Besides, he's honestly not that good. At least not as good as what his acquisition cost is going to be.

[iortiz]

It depends on Madson's price. But Garza would cost a lot of high-tier talent' date=' which hamstrings you for the future either way. Besides, he's honestly not that good. At least not as good as what his acquisition cost is going to be.[/quote']

 

Yes, it depends on Madson's value. IMO it has dropped. As long we don't give up Kalish and Midd for Garza, I would make a cub-pack plus that famous compensation. Garza is a legit solid 3-4 SP in the AL East, or even more. Theo has been saying that he is the man you can build your roster around Of course I don't buy that crap.

[User Name]

Yes' date=' it depends on Madson value. IMO it has dropped. As long we don't give up Kalish and Midd for Garza, I would make a cub-pack plus that famous compensation. Garza is a legit solid 3-4 SP in the AL East, or even more. Theo has been saying that he is the man you can build a roster around [/quote']

 

What about Lavarnway, Jacobs, Bogaerts and Ceccini? The problem with dealing with the Cubs lies in the fact that Theo knows the farm system inside and out. Besides Lavarnway, those are three extremely high-ceiling players that people don't know a lot about but the the Red should absolutely hold on to, specially Jacobs.

[iortiz]

What about Lavarnway' date=' Jacobs, Bogaerts and Ceccini? The problem with dealing with the Cubs lies in the fact that Theo knows the farm system inside and out. Besides Lavarnway, those are three extremely high-ceiling players that people don't know a lot about but the the Red should absolutely hold on to, specially Jacobs.[/quote']

I don't like the idea to give up Lav or Bogaerts. But we have have to give something interesting, that is a fact. It's a win-win. Besides Some of those guys are long shots. It's all about risk vs benefits.

 

I've been saying, "blow the cap and sign Kuroda" if the deal for Garza is unaffordable.

[User Name]

I don't like the idea to give up Lav or Bogaerts. But we have have to give something interesting, that is a fact. Some of those guys still are long shots. It's all about risk vs benefits.

 

I've been saying, "blow the cap and sign Kuroda" if the deal for Garza is unaffordable.

 

The problem comes when long shots like that turn into Carlos Gonzales or Hanley Ramirez. The risk here is still high and the benefit uncertain because Garza is a pitcher, and we all know the inherent risks associated with them, and Garza is going to cost a lot of money with limited team control years, making the benefit not as clear cut as it would initially appear.

 

They should sign a guy like Kuroda for one year, as you say.

[iortiz]

The problem comes when long shots like that turn into Carlos Gonzales or Hanley Ramirez. The risk here is still high and the benefit uncertain because Garza is a pitcher, and we all know the inherent risks associated with them, and Garza is going to cost a lot of money with limited team control years, making the benefit not as clear cut as it would initially appear.

 

They should sign a guy like Kuroda for one year, as you say.

 

Yup.

 

1. If the trade for Garza is reasonable viable, go for it regardless you have that Theo comp.

 

2. Sign Kuroda

 

3. Oswalt.

 

But we can't go like this, I think we all agree.

[a700hitter]

I'm agree. Totally agree.

 

But Madson and Garza won't clogg our "future" in the way I see the thing. They are solid pieces. And with them you can win this season as well. These acquisitions won't make you weaker in the future, but the opposite.

This is a great point. Those guys will not clog our future.

[User Name]

Not like Papelbon would have. But it's still risky to give high dollar/years to relief pitchers.

[iortiz]

This is a great point. Those guys will not clog our future.

 

Yes, 2013 FA class will be a better class, BUT... I see the main big fish making extensions to their contracts. The rest, will be guys like Garza or with lower level.

[a700hitter]

Yes' date=' 2013 FA class will be a better class, BUT... I see the main big fish making extensions to their contracts. The rest, will be guys like Garza or with lower level.[/quote']I think it is very probable that Hamels and Cain will get extended.

[iortiz]

Not like Papelbon would have. But it's still risky to give high dollar/years to relief pitchers.

 

He wouldn't have clogged our future as long as he puts the next 4 years something around Mo's numbers. IMO I see that happening. Yo have been saying that relievers don't worth those amounts of money, that it is too risky. He is not in that bunch. He is not a common reliever. I've been saying that he is not another "reliever". He is an elite closer. He should be treated different. He was treated different by Philly. It's a matter of opinion and the way we see the things.

 

I think we can agree to disagree.

[User Name]

He wouldn't have clogged our future as long as he puts the next 4 years something around Mo's numbers. IMO I see that happening. Yo have been saying that relievers don't worth those amounts of money, that it is too risky. He is not in that bunch. He is not a common reliever. I've been saying that he is not another "reliever". He is an elite closer. He should be treated different. He was treated different by Philly. It's a matter of opinion and the way we see the things.

 

I think we can agree to disagree.

 

Sure, but don't be surprised when Papelbon gets TJS/sucks and i remind you of this conversation. Papelbon is a very good relief pitcher, but he's just that: A relief pitcher.

 

Also, 2011 was an exception of what was a yearly decline of performance. Don't get me wrong, i would have liked to see him back.....but not at that price.

[iortiz]

Sure' date=' but don't be surprised when Papelbon gets TJS/sucks and i remind you of this conversation[/b']. Papelbon is a very good relief pitcher, but he's just that: A relief pitcher.

 

Also, 2011 was an exception of what was a yearly decline of performance. Don't get me wrong, i would have liked to see him back.....but not at that price.

 

Or maybe just the other way.

 

Still I respect your opinion.

[seabeachfred]

I don't want him as a Starter. I don't want another Bard case in our rotation. I want him as a closer.

 

My nice to have is:

 

Beckett

Lester

Buch

1. Garza/ 2. Jackson/ 3. Kuroda beyond the price vs years/trade implications

Bard

 

Madson

Bailey

Melancon

Aceves

Etc.

 

I know, I know it's a pipe dream. But with this pitching staff, even pumpsie would be very confident about next season.

 

The problem iortiz is, starter or reliever, the Red Sox just are not going to spend much money this off season, and unless this mindset changes and fast my optimism that we can be a good team this coming season will be out the window and into the crapper. Look, we need another good starting pitcher and now with Smorgabord Jenks back on the shelf we need another good reliever as well. It's beginning to dawn on me that John Henry has put out the word that he isn't going to spending large sums of money this winter and that's that, and if he doesn't do so to upgrade our pitching the season could be that 's that.

[seabeachfred]

You're missing the point. The main reason they're so reluctant to throw money around this year is because the next couple of years is going to have two really strong FA markets. Do you want to tie yourself for multiple years/high dollar value to mediocre talent and forego the better talent in the future?

 

It's not all about "win now". You need to win later too.

 

What I see wrong with your scenario UN is that you are convinced that the FA market is going to be loaded next winter. What may have slipped your mind is that some of those better potential FA's will no doubt resign with their respective teams. I kept hearing in 2009 when Epstein signed all those scrap heapers like Smoltz and Penny that the FA market that fall would be loaded with talent, but most of that "talent" resigned with their respective teams.

 

As for winning now, I think it is time we start winning now because for the last four seasons we have not won a damn thing. Certainly not a World Series, but not even an AL title or a division one. We need to start winning something this coming season.

[User Name]

What I see wrong with your scenario UN is that you are convinced that the FA market is going to be loaded next winter. What may have slipped your mind is that some of those better potential FA's will no doubt resign with their respective teams. I kept hearing in 2009 when Epstein signed all those scrap heapers like Smoltz and Penny that the FA market that fall would be loaded with talent, but most of that "talent" resigned with their respective teams.

 

As for winning now, I think it is time we start winning now because for the last four seasons we have not won a damn thing. Certainly not a World Series, but not even an AL title or a division one. We need to start winning something this coming season.

 

How many pitchers realistically miss the chance to cash in and sign an extension with their current team when they can cash in through Free Agency? Not many. There will be pitchers aplenty in 2013 and 2014. Book it.

 

As for the rest of your post, being so spoiled is not a good thing. The fact that they haven't won anything in a couple years is not the end of the world. I say take the approach that works better in the long term.

[seabeachfred]

Wishing all of you out there a happy Sunday and an enjoyable day of watchin football or basketball and knowing nothing with the Red Sox is likely to happen today. I do have a question for you guys and gals though. Do you think that this coming week we will finally sign a pitcher? I think the time may be right and except for Madson I don't think those asking prices are going down any time soon.

 

And who fits the bill best for us? I no longer have a favorite. Who'se yours?????

[Elktonnick]

Wishing all of you out there a happy Sunday and an enjoyable day of watchin football or basketball and knowing nothing with the Red Sox is likely to happen today. I do have a question for you guys and gals though. Do you think that this coming week we will finally sign a pitcher? I think the time may be right and except for Madson I don't think those asking prices are going down any time soon.

 

And who fits the bill best for us? I no longer have a favorite. Who'se yours?????

 

I still think it is unlikely that the Sox will sign a FA pitcher who could start soon if at all. I have always thought they are more likely to trade for one. I think some kind of deal with the Braves still makes the most sense from my point of view.

[jung]

I think a trade is the likely route especially if they are truly committed to Ortiz. As currently configured they have too much offense and too little pitching for me to take them seriously. I see posts here that make it sound like a monster offense goes directly into the crapper if we let go of even one piece of it. I would love to keep them all if we had pitching but we don't.

[FredLynn]

You're missing the point. The main reason they're so reluctant to throw money around this year is because the next couple of years is going to have two really strong FA markets. Do you want to tie yourself for multiple years/high dollar value to mediocre talent and forego the better talent in the future?

 

It's not all about "win now". You need to win later too.

 

Actually, its about "win later" but NOT "win now". I think its a pretty unrealistic expectation, no matter how well intentioned, that this franchise or any franchise can position itself every single year for a run at a championship. Unfortunately, Epstein left us in a huge mess, and that will take time to clean up. I wholeheartedly support the FO not spending any money this year on FA. I hope they can remain under the cap because this is simply not our year. Sure, if they really opened up their wallets and traded away some of our top prospects, completing the rape of our farm system, we could compete this year. That, unfortunately, would screw us for the next 3-4 years. I am all for realizing the fact that we won't be in the race for a ring this year so that we CAN be in the race in 2013 and 2014.

[NativeBostonian]

Isn't Dice-K going to be coming back this year? Why couldn't we just through him into the 5th spot. He is playing for another contract in 2012 ( I believe) so he might end up having a good showing.

[a700hitter]

Isn't Dice-K going to be coming back this year? Why couldn't we just through him into the 5th spot. He is playing for another contract in 2012 ( I believe) so he might end up having a good showing.

The earliest he could be ready would be in the second half, but there are usually some setbacks. It's more likely that he will not throw a pitch for the Red Sox until September if at all.

[a700hitter]

Wishing all of you out there a happy Sunday and an enjoyable day of watchin football or basketball and knowing nothing with the Red Sox is likely to happen today. I do have a question for you guys and gals though. Do you think that this coming week we will finally sign a pitcher? I think the time may be right and except for Madson I don't think those asking prices are going down any time soon.

 

And who fits the bill best for us? I no longer have a favorite. Who'se yours?????

There is about a month left to go before pitchers and catchers have to report. There isn't a lot of time left to finalize the roster and Ben has about 4 moves to makes. The starting pitcher is the most critical. If they are going after a pitcher of the caliber of Pat Maholm, Ben and the FO is taking a big risk on the season, and I think is unlikely that they will be in the post season in 2012. Too many things would have to break right for the team to make a run at the post season. Usually, not everything goes right.

[Elktonnick]

There is about a month left to go before pitchers and catchers have to report. There isn't a lot of time left to finalize the roster and Ben has about 4 moves to makes. The starting pitcher is the most critical. If they are going after a pitcher of the caliber of Pat Maholm' date=' Ben and the FO is taking a big risk on the season, and I think is unlikely that they will be in the post season in 2012. Too many things would have to break right for the team to make a run at the post season. Usually, not everything goes right.[/quote']

You are 100% on target. In all probability one of the top three starters will spend some time n the DL. Pitching depth is non existent. That is the key. I'd gladly give up Youk for some pitcher who is ML ready.

[NativeBostonian]

The earliest he could be ready would be in the second half' date=' but there are usually some setbacks. It's more likely that he will not throw a pitch for the Red Sox until September if at all.[/quote']

 

God, he really is a waste of money. Gave us one good season then started to brake down.

[iortiz]

What I see wrong with your scenario UN is that you are convinced that the FA market is going to be loaded next winter. What may have slipped your mind is that some of those better potential FA's will no doubt resign with their respective teams. I kept hearing in 2009 when Epstein signed all those scrap heapers like Smoltz and Penny that the FA market that fall would be loaded with talent, but most of that "talent" resigned with their respective teams.

 

As for winning now, I think it is time we start winning now because for the last four seasons we have not won a damn thing. Certainly not a World Series, but not even an AL title or a division one. We need to start winning something this coming season.

 

I've been saying that big market teams must win in the short/mid/long term. Yes, we haven't won a damn thing in 4 years. 5 years in a row would be very painful. As a700 said we only need a couple of solid extra moves in order to have a very competitive team. I already put my wish list. C'mon!, it is affordable.

 

Yes Fred, they better change the mindset. For once and for all try to grab Garza and Madsen.

[iortiz]

Actually' date=' its about "win later" but NOT "win now". I think its a pretty unrealistic expectation, no matter how well intentioned, that this franchise or any franchise can position itself every single year for a run at a championship. Unfortunately, Epstein left us in a huge mess, and that will take time to clean up. I wholeheartedly support the FO not spending any money this year on FA. I hope they can remain under the cap because this is simply not our year. Sure, if they really opened up their wallets and traded away some of our top prospects, completing the rape of our farm system, we could compete this year. That, unfortunately, would screw us for the next 3-4 years. I am all for realizing the fact that we won't be in the race for a ring this year so that we CAN be in the race in 2013 and 2014.[/quote']

 

I don't want to wait till 2013 or 2014. But your point is very realistic if they do not make another move. Hopefully BC Keeps an ace up his sleeve and surprise us all.