2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[Bellhorn04]

I would love to see Boras cost Madson a pile of money. Nothing against Madson, but few things would make me happier than to see Boras humiliated. :thumbsup:

[Elktonnick]

I second that Fred.

Good wishes to you and your family.

 

Sorry to be so tardy, But Merry Christmas to all

[seabeachfred]

My bet is whoever signs him will sign him late in January. Boras has no option other than to play the waiting game for a team to get desperate. The question is' date=' which team? The only organization with a clear-cut need for a closer right now is the Red Sox, and they honestly have other options.[/quote']

 

User, there is solid logic behind what you wrote and I would think you were on to something if I hadn't been seeing what is happening out here in Southern California the past month or so. Believe me, Arte Moreno has gone off the deep end and is determined to get to a World Series as soon as possible come hell or high water. Remember, he bought the team just AFTER they had won the WS in 2002 and so far he has won only division titles, no league ones and certainly then no WS. He has already emptied part of the bank on two outstanding free agents and knows his team's closer is young and has had some control problems. When you spend that much money what's a "little" more? Also, as it might have been you or someone else who said it, the Red Sox don't seem inclined to spend much money this fall. Right now I think Madson will not be pitching in Fenway Park next season except maybe in a foreign uniform.

[Spitball]

I like the adquisition of Mark Melancon.

 

I think the guy is a younger and much cheaper version of Ryan Madson. I believe obtaining a young guy is much smarter way to get a "proven" closer.

 

Oh, and Merry Christmas to all.

[jung]

He didn't take that huge contract the Phillies were offering, and now Madson's market is pretty dry and there's no "mystery team" to be added, because pretty much everyone (including the Angels) has a set closer

 

I thought what happened with the Phils is that in the end, the contract really was not offered in the sense that once it got to the Phil's owners desk, he turned it down (as in refused to sign it). So in fact it was the Phils that walked away from that deal. Do I have that wrong?

[example1]

Any chance Madson could be reconverted to a SP?

 

Either way, I suspect that Madsons price will come down or (more likely) he signs elsewhere. I like him at two years, slightly less at three, and think four is absurd territory. I actually like Madsons stuff a lot but he's a reliever and relievers who aren't cost controlled are simply too risky. Ben will probably prefer to go into the season without an established closer than burden the team with another long and sizable contract.

 

If the market really is poor, why not pay him Papelbon money for ONE season, throw on a mutual option, and let Madson and Boras do FA again next year when the market isn't saturated with closers.

 

Madson would clearly be the Sox best play here, but I won't fault them if the Angels or someone else goes three or four years at Papelbon-esque salary.

 

One year, 11.5m with a mutual option at similar salary, or an automatic vesting option based on saves or all-star appearance or something, and wait them out.

[iortiz]

Any chance Madson could be reconverted to a SP?

 

Either way, I suspect that Madsons price will come down or (more likely) he signs elsewhere. I like him at two years, slightly less at three, and think four is absurd territory. I actually like Madsons stuff a lot but he's a reliever and relievers who aren't cost controlled are simply too risky. Ben will probably prefer to go into the season without an established closer than burden the team with another long and sizable contract.

 

If the market really is poor, why not pay him Papelbon money for ONE season, throw on a mutual option, and let Madson and Boras do FA again next year when the market isn't saturated with closers.

 

Madson would clearly be the Sox best play here, but I won't fault them if the Angels or someone else goes three or four years at Papelbon-esque salary.

 

One year, 11.5m with a mutual option at similar salary, or an automatic vesting option based on saves or all-star appearance or something, and wait them out.

 

I like this.

[User Name]

Any chance Madson could be reconverted to a SP?

 

Either way, I suspect that Madsons price will come down or (more likely) he signs elsewhere. I like him at two years, slightly less at three, and think four is absurd territory. I actually like Madsons stuff a lot but he's a reliever and relievers who aren't cost controlled are simply too risky. Ben will probably prefer to go into the season without an established closer than burden the team with another long and sizable contract.

 

If the market really is poor, why not pay him Papelbon money for ONE season, throw on a mutual option, and let Madson and Boras do FA again next year when the market isn't saturated with closers.

 

Madson would clearly be the Sox best play here, but I won't fault them if the Angels or someone else goes three or four years at Papelbon-esque salary.

 

One year, 11.5m with a mutual option at similar salary, or an automatic vesting option based on saves or all-star appearance or something, and wait them out.

 

Madson always sucked as a starter.

 

As for the rest of your post, it's a great idea. Boras has even done this with the Sox before (Beltre), and should the contract be structured like the Beltre one (mutual option for little money) it would help lessen the salary cap impact. Best of both worlds.

[Spitball]

I will be very disappointed if the Sox sign Madson for even one year. The guy was pressed into closing and came through, but that same scenaraio can be replicated without paying top closer (and Boras) money. At similar ages, Melancon was as good a pitcher as Madson. The Cardinals went through last season and didn't find a closer until the last quarter. The Rays used Farnsworth. The Jays used a former shortstop. Teams waste money when they pay for a proven closer.

 

Find a competent reliever and convert him.

[a700hitter]

Any chance Madson could be reconverted to a SP?

 

Either way, I suspect that Madsons price will come down or (more likely) he signs elsewhere. I like him at two years, slightly less at three, and think four is absurd territory. I actually like Madsons stuff a lot but he's a reliever and relievers who aren't cost controlled are simply too risky. Ben will probably prefer to go into the season without an established closer than burden the team with another long and sizable contract.

 

If the market really is poor, why not pay him Papelbon money for ONE season, throw on a mutual option, and let Madson and Boras do FA again next year when the market isn't saturated with closers.

 

Madson would clearly be the Sox best play here, but I won't fault them if the Angels or someone else goes three or four years at Papelbon-esque salary.

 

One year, 11.5m with a mutual option at similar salary, or an automatic vesting option based on saves or all-star appearance or something, and wait them out.

I like the idea too, but the market for Madson would have to almost evaporate for it to come to the point where he takes a 1 year deal.

 

As for the notion of him converting to a starter, I have been wondering about his ability to be a starter. I think he did some spot starting for the Phillies in past years. However, the Sox can't have 3 relievers stretching out preparing to be starters at Spring Training... can they?

[SoxSport]

Madson came up as a starter, but wasn't very good. He later developed a changeup as a reliever and became a good closer. He could probably be a better starter now with the changeup.

 

Madson's main problem right now is Boras. Some owners won't deal with him, and he always overvalues his clients. The Red Sox are probably waiting him out, as they did with Beltre.

[a700hitter]

An AL GM on Joel Zumaya: "Our doctors don't think he would pass the physical based on what they see."

[example1]

I like the idea too, but the market for Madson would have to almost evaporate for it to come to the point where he takes a 1 year deal.

 

As for the notion of him converting to a starter, I have been wondering about his ability to be a starter. I think he did some spot starting for the Phillies in past years. However, the Sox can't have 3 relievers stretching out preparing to be starters at Spring Training... can they?

 

I guess I was thinking it would be Bard staying in the pen and Madson starting. However, I have a hard time seeing Boras signing up for that risk at the contract noted above.

 

If it is true that he developed his changeup as a reliever then he and Bard are remarkably similar. That's interesting.

 

Having watched the Phillies and Madson highlights, I actually like his stuff and makeup. He comes across as having an appropriate personality to close in a tough city. I think that quality is overvalued but insofar as it is needed, I think he's got it.

[Meh]

Madson always sucked as a starter.

 

Aren't you in favor of Bard starting? I could be wrong though. Maybe I got you confused with a700

[a700hitter]

Aren't you in favor of Bard starting? I could be wrong though. Maybe I got you confused with a700

I wasn't opposed to the idea of Bard being a starter if they had kept Papelbon or replaced Papelbon with an established closer. As the roster is currently constructed, I'd prefer that Bard goes back to the pen, but that could change based on their future moves.

[a700hitter]

Yankees Unlikely To Make An Offer To Kuroda

By Zach Links [December 26 at 12:05pm CST]

 

Earlier this week, it was reported that both the Yankees and Red Sox were pursuing free agent starter Hiroki Kuroda despite luxury tax concerns. However, baseball sources tell Wallace Matthews of ESPNNewYork.com that the Bombers are unlikely to make a bid for the soon-to-be 37-year-old.

 

Kuroda seeks a deal that will pay him roughly $12-$13MM per season, which translates to something closer to $17MM when factoring in the 40 percent luxury tax charge. Even though the Yankees like Kuroda, a club source told Matthews that the team simply doesn't have room in the budget for him. Wallace writes that the Yankees' supposed interest in the veteran is likely designed to drive the price up for Boston.

 

This morning, prior to this report, nearly 28% of MLBTR readers voted the Yankees as the most likely destination for Kuroda.

After a story like this appears in the press is when the Yankees are the most dangerous. They are probably waiting for Kuroda and the Sox to exchange figures, and then they will swoop in and give him his asking price or something very close to it.

[a700hitter]

Rockies In Contract Talks With Cody Ross

By Zach Links [December 26 at 9:04am CST]

 

The Rockies are in contract talks with Cody Ross, according to Buster Olney of ESPN.com (via Twitter). Ross would presumably help the club create depth if they make a long-expected trade involving Seth Smith.

 

The outfielder was said to be seeking a three-year deal for some time but is now willing to sign a two-year pact. Earlier this month the Rockies seemed to have mild interest in Ross but it appears that they have ramped up their pursuit.

 

There's no shortage of suitors for Smith as he is drawing interest from the A's, Rays, Mariners, Braves, and Mets. Even though the talks that would have sent Martin Prado to the Rockies have gone cold, we learned over the weekend that Atlanta is still in on Smith.

Ross wouldn't be a terrible choice for a platoon OFer to share time with Kalish or Reddick.

[jung]

The Yanks are the one team in baseball for which you can almost categorically state that the LT is simply not a factor. 50% at four years may be sobering even for them but that remains to be seen.

 

If anything it will be the Sox that are pushed to the sideline by the LT, not the Yanks.

[Elktonnick]

I wasn't opposed to the idea of Bard being a starter if they had kept Papelbon or replaced Papelbon with an established closer. As the roster is currently constructed' date=' I'd prefer that Bard goes back to the pen, but that could change based on their future moves.[/quote']

 

While I can understand why many question whether Bard can become a starter, I think it is clear that Bard wants the opportunity to start. He is unhappy to remain a setup guy. He is made that clear. I on the other hand don't think he has the temperment to close.It will be one of the more interesting questions for this spring training.

 

One thing I think everyone can agree upon this will be one of the more interesting springs in many years. I expect thses boards will have plenty to talk about in another couple weeks.

[User Name]

Aren't you in favor of Bard starting? I could be wrong though. Maybe I got you confused with a700

 

I was for Bard closing. Investigate first, post after. My intention is not to be blunt, but there's obvious intent to stir the pot here.

[seabeachfred]

I was for Bard closing. Investigate first' date=' post after. My intention is not to be blunt, but there's obvious intent to stir the pot here.[/quote']

 

Well I read something this morning that makes me want to stir the pot. Apparently even with the signing of Kelly Shoppach, the Red Sox refuse to close the door on Jason Varitek despite the fact that he was the worst hitter in the AL after June 30, can't throw worth a damn, his leadership a farce and canard as brought out my his total lack of said leadership in last September's embarrassing collapse. It is absolutely freakin' congruous that with all the holes Cherrries Jubilee has to fill he is getting himself bogged down with Varitek. He should just tell him that if he still wants to play he should sign elsewhere. We don't need him and any intellegent Red Sox fan should not want him either. Boras is now getting involved and saying that Jason "only wants to play for the Red Sox", which if honestly translated means that he hasn't received one damn offer from anyone else and will be out of baseball if the Red Sox don't once again stupidly accede to his "request" and resign his client. It was the same after 20008 and 2010---Varitek didn't receive one solitary offer from any other team and he hasn't received one from any this off season. Both the Mets and Orioles showed a smattering of interest and then said NYET, NEIN, NO MAS, NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!

[User Name]

What i interpreted from the article was that the door was open for him "in other capacities". Then again, i was on a rush, and i can see why you would see it that way.

 

If the angle you took is correct, that's a stupid, stupid way to go about things. The Varitek era as a player must come to an end.

[a700hitter]

Well I read something this morning that makes me want to stir the pot. Apparently even with the signing of Kelly Shoppach' date=' the Red Sox refuse to close the door on Jason Varitek despite the fact that he was the worst hitter in the AL after June 30, can't throw worth a damn, his leadership a farce and canard as brought out my his total lack of said leadership in last September's embarrassing collapse. It is absolutely freakin' congruous that with all the holes Cherrries Jubilee has to fill he is getting himself bogged down with Varitek. He should just tell him that if he still wants to play he should sign elsewhere. We don't need him and any intellegent Red Sox fan should not want him either. Boras is now getting involved and saying that Jason "only wants to play for the Red Sox", which if honestly translated means that he hasn't received one damn offer from anyone else and will be out of baseball if the Red Sox don't once again stupidly accede to his "request" and resign his client. It was the same after 20008 and 2010---Varitek didn't receive one solitary offer from any other team and he hasn't received one from any this off season. Both the Mets and Orioles showed a smattering of interest and then said NYET, NEIN, NO MAS, NO WAY!!!!!!!!!![/quote']I saw that article too. It left me shaking my head. Are they going to carry 3 catchers? Will Varitek be a coach who they will activate if one of the catchers go down with an injury? Was the article an attempt to stir the pot at Red Sox Nation. Fred, I font think you are stirring the pot in this case. The article begs the questions, how and why.

[FredLynn]

Jason Varitek has had his last AB for the Boston Red Sox. They will not carry three catchers this year. So either he goes or Shoppach or Salty goes. Varitek should be hired as a coach for the catchers in the entire franchise. He has a lot to offer as a coach. As a player, his is finished.

[FredLynn]

On the other hand, I believe that the team will rehire Tim Wakefield after their "due diligence" at finding a cost effective (ie cheap) alternative. They are not going to pay anyone $12M per year when they can pay Wakefield what-$4M? Kuroda is not coming, at least not at his current asking price. Saunders is someone I do not want to EVER see on our roster. And Jurrgens isn't coming either-and I think thats a good thing since he will be too expensive and does not have good velocity (not a requirement, but it sure helps, especially at his age). That leaves the dregs, and the management will decide on Wakefield. After all, as fans don't we "deserve to see him go for the record"?

[jung]

I simply do not think Wakefield can get anybody out anymore. He is just to old and at this point most of the time the knuckler does not knuckle. It just meanders over to home plate on its way to the outfield if not further.

 

I would rather see them do just about anything other than sign Wakefield. I would rather they took a Rocky Balboa shot at somebody cause whoever that somebody might be could hardly be worse than Wakefield.

 

Not only is Wakefield a walking home run machine....Salty is a walking passed ball machine. I don't think Kelly has any history catching knucklers either?

[Spitball]

Ross wouldn't be a terrible choice for a platoon OFer to share time with Kalish or Reddick.

 

I agree. He has a career OPS over .900 versus lefties and is a versatile defender.

 

Of course, his 2011 season might be scaring off teams. His power versus lefties disappeared.

[seabeachfred]

I saw that article too. It left me shaking my head. Are they going to carry 3 catchers? Will Varitek be a coach who they will activate if one of the catchers go down with an injury? Was the article an attempt to stir the pot at Red Sox Nation. Fred' date=' I font think you are stirring the pot in this case. The article begs the questions, how and why.[/quote']

 

Well 700 and User, that article did get my Italian up and the only thing I could come up with is that our front office has this thing for their "sacred cows"----Varitek, Wakefield and Ortiz. Or is could also be that with the 100th Anniversary of Fenway due to be celebrated next season maybe they want a few of the guys in uniform who were part of our two recent World Series Titles. I can't come up with another reason. I will say this, though. If Varitek is invited to ST, all bets are off and it is my opinion he will be on the team come hell or high water. We have some holes to fill that could make or break our season, and while I still insist our team could make a real go of it in 2012, we need to be tooling up and making that additions that will afford us the chance to compete. To be talking about maybe resigning Varitek is a waste of time and energy, especially since he no longer brings anything to the table. He can't hit, he can't throw, and apparently from what went down in September his leadership qualities are vastly overrated.

 

OTOH, I think this week between Christmas and New Year's, well don't expect anything to be done with respect to our team. From what I can recall this has always been a "dead" week for things getting done.

[jung]

There is a link between the 100th anniversary and Veritek. The park and the player are both approaching the same age!

[FredLynn]

I simply do not think Wakefield can get anybody out anymore. He is just to old and at this point most of the time the knuckler does not knuckle. It just meanders over to home plate on its way to the outfield if not further.

 

I would rather see them do just about anything other than sign Wakefield. I would rather they took a Rocky Balboa shot at somebody cause whoever that somebody might be could hardly be worse than Wakefield.

 

Not only is Wakefield a walking home run machine....Salty is a walking passed ball machine. I don't think Kelly has any history catching knucklers either?

 

The fact that Wakefield cannot get anybody out any more is obvious to anyone who follows the team. However, he is cheap. And that fact will not escape the attention of the ownership IMO. I think that there is a significant chance they will sign him again even though he stinks.

Again, if this is a rebuilding year you cannot rebuild everything all at once. You have to wait for some of the bad contracts Epstein hobbled us with to come off the books. Then you can buy some ML pitchers.

Until then, its incompetent selfish boobs like Wakefield.