2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[Elktonnick]

Come on User' date=' ease up on Bob Apodaca. Bobby played on my teams in Downey, California from 1963 through 1966, including All Star Teams. This guy is a real smart cookie with a lot of moxie, a fast learner and a real over achiever. Not drafted after college, he signed a free agent contract with the Mets, was a winning pitcher in A, AA and AAA ball in successive years and made it to the big club in time for the 1973 pennant. He knows pitching and has done a pretty damn good job in Colorado, normally a graveyard for the guys on the mound. I had to defend one of my old boys.[/quote']

 

Suppose you'd love to see him with Valentine who is an old buddy!

[Elktonnick]

Are the Tito jabs still really necessary? Nice job with the FrancoMA reference, original and predictable as always. He has lived in Boston for the most part since 2004 and people still want to talk to him and the majority of fans will always appreciate what he helped the Red Sox achieve in 04 and 07. He is far from perfect, made mistakes as everyone does.

 

Here is a quote in today's Globe by someone who actually knew Terry Francona. Joe Madden when asked about Valentine being the new manager:

 

 

"I think it's very interesting, I think it makes our division even more interesting as you suggested. I'm not going to say better because I'm not going to denigrate Tito (Francona). I thought Tito did a great job while he was there, and I was a lot of respect for him, a ton of respect for him. It's just a different scenario there now. It's a different form of competition. But Bobby definitely is going to add to the interest level in our division. And in baseball in general, I he's a wonderful man. I love his enthusiasm for the day, not just baseball."

 

Move forward fred.

 

Saw the Maddon interview on TV. He now has dark brown hair:D

[VA Sox Fan]

Saw the Maddon interview on TV. He now has dark brown hair:D

 

Good for him! :thumbsup:

[seabeachfred]

Are the Tito jabs still really necessary? Nice job with the FrancoMA reference, original and predictable as always. He has lived in Boston for the most part since 2004 and people still want to talk to him and the majority of fans will always appreciate what he helped the Red Sox achieve in 04 and 07. He is far from perfect, made mistakes as everyone does.

 

Here is a quote in today's Globe by someone who actually knew Terry Francona. Joe Madden when asked about Valentine being the new manager:

 

 

"I think it's very interesting, I think it makes our division even more interesting as you suggested. I'm not going to say better because I'm not going to denigrate Tito (Francona). I thought Tito did a great job while he was there, and I was a lot of respect for him, a ton of respect for him. It's just a different scenario there now. It's a different form of competition. But Bobby definitely is going to add to the interest level in our division. And in baseball in general, I he's a wonderful man. I love his enthusiasm for the day, not just baseball."

 

Move forward fred.

 

With all due respect VA, I am entitled to my opinion and I will give it whether it offends you or not. You have the option of not reading my posts or putting me on ignore but as long as we have freedom of expression here I will continue to say what's on my mind. I know you were a great admirer of FrancoNa and more power to you for holding your ground on that. I was NOT an admirer of FrancoNa and thought he was very deficient in the dugout---and IN MY OPINION cost us numerous games every year. According to my pal Muggah who posts here on occasion he had him down for nine by the past August when he just quit counting. I wish Terry well in his new endeavor but believe deep in my bones we will be much better off with Bobby Valentine who is a very strong dugout manager.

 

As for what Madden said, what else could he say. You don't run down a contemporary no matter what you might feel to the contrary...if that might be the case. All I know is that in the last four season Joe ran circles around your boy when it came to strategy. They ran, pitched and bunted our team silly while we were confined to hitting into double plays and killing rallies with our ridiculous station-to-station philosophy that netted us nothing.

 

I have moved on VA; glad your man is gone and looking forward to seeing a rejuvinated and exciting and unpredictable team take the field next season.

[seabeachfred]

I like Roy Oswalt, Willingham, Madson, Ayala, Thornton. I think two bullpen pieces plus a closer would do it.

 

There are so many ways they could go that i don't even really know.

 

Well if I could grade your picks I would give you an "A".....very good. Willingham would be ideal as well as he is a RH power hitter like Cuddyer, though I don't know if he mashes lefties like Cud does. Oswalt would be a good pick, though Garza does have experience in the AL East while Roy has been a NL pitcher which is why I went with him. We're sympatico with Ayala and Madson, and you hit a homer with Thornton in my opinion. Why the hell didn't I think if him in the first place?

 

Nothing today User. Hope to hear something going down the next two days.

[seabeachfred]

Suppose you'd love to see him with Valentine who is an old buddy!

 

Well they did work together well in New York, but who'se kidding who? You know damn well that there is quite a bit of bias on my part in wanting Apodaca. Still, I think he would do well in Boston.

[a700hitter]

Red Sox "Confident" About Re-Signing Ortiz

By Luke Adams [December 5, 2011 at 8:51pm CST]

 

The Red Sox seem "pretty confident" they'll be able to re-sign David Ortiz to a two-year deal, assuming he doesn't accept arbitration, tweets Jon Heyman of MLB Network. Here are a few more Red Sox updates from Ben Cherington's first Winter Meetings as Boston's GM:

 

Although Boston was thought to have interest in free agents like C.J. Wilson and Roy Oswalt, Cherington said today that he doesn't anticipate the Red Sox pursuing high-end starting pitching options, as WEEI's Alex Speier writes.

Cherington also said today that Daniel Bard had indicated a preference for his 2012 role, however it seems he and Bard may not be on the same page. In a text message to the Providence Journal's Brian MacPherson, Bard said he stated a willingness to move to the rotation rather than a preference to do so: "I guess making it clear that I would be willing to start may have made it seem like a preference, but I just want to make it clear that I feel like I could thrive in either role."

It doesn't appear that the Orioles will be signing longtime Red Sox backstop Jason Varitek. According to John Tomase of the Boston Herald, Buck Showalter addressed the topic in Dallas: "Right now, it’s not a fit for us."

[User Name]

Well if I could grade your picks I would give you an "A".....very good. Willingham would be ideal as well as he is a RH power hitter like Cuddyer, though I don't know if he mashes lefties like Cud does. Oswalt would be a good pick, though Garza does have experience in the AL East while Roy has been a NL pitcher which is why I went with him. We're sympatico with Ayala and Madson, and you hit a homer with Thornton in my opinion. Why the hell didn't I think if him in the first place?

 

Nothing today User. Hope to hear something going down the next two days.

 

.862 career OPS against them in his career,

[SoxSport]

The Globe says the Sox have about $20 mil to spend right now on improving the club.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/12/how_much_money.html

 

If they re-sign Ortiz, that number drops at least in half, leaving about $10 mil or so to fix what needs fixing. Namely, the pitching.

 

It looks like unless they get deeper into luxury tax country, they really can't sign Papi and get the pitching they need. And if they don't get some starting pitching and/or a closer, they can forget the playoffs--the AL East is about pitching.

 

The conclusion: they have to make some trades. Salary for salary and prospects. Hopefully, Ben and Bobby are working on some trades in Dallas. Billy Beane, where are you.

[boy racer]

Overall' date=' I hope that Ortiz doesn't lose interest. Cherington said that he'd work on keeping him in a Sox uniform. What do you guys think about the Papelbon situation? I haven't heard anything on top prospects for his slot, not that I've been digging deep or anything.[/quote']

[iortiz]

The Globe says the Sox have about $20 mil to spend right now on improving the club.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/12/how_much_money.html

 

If they re-sign Ortiz, that number drops at least in half, leaving about $10 mil or so to fix what needs fixing. Namely, the pitching.

 

It looks like unless they get deeper into luxury tax country, they really can't sign Papi and get the pitching they need. And if they don't get some starting pitching and/or a closer, they can forget the playoffs--the AL East is about pitching.

 

The conclusion: they have to make some trades. Salary for salary and prospects. Hopefully, Ben and Bobby are working on some trades in Dallas. Billy Beane, where are you.

 

10 M available in order to fill our pitching holes? I want to see how BC handles this. He will need to be creative.

[commenter]

The Globe says the Sox have about $20 mil to spend right now on improving the club.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/12/how_much_money.html

 

If they re-sign Ortiz, that number drops at least in half, leaving about $10 mil or so to fix what needs fixing. Namely, the pitching.

 

It looks like unless they get deeper into luxury tax country, they really can't sign Papi and get the pitching they need. And if they don't get some starting pitching and/or a closer, they can forget the playoffs--the AL East is about pitching.

 

The conclusion: they have to make some trades. Salary for salary and prospects. Hopefully, Ben and Bobby are working on some trades in Dallas. Billy Beane, where are you.

 

Billy Beane is not going to take on any salary. He'd want cheap, young, controllable players in return.

 

Better yet, why don't the Red Sox just not re-sign Ortiz. What's the probability that he's going to hit left handed pitching the way he did last year after not being able to hit it in '08, '09 & '10? I don't know why they'd commit a ton of money to Ortiz when their complaining about not having payroll flexibility & this team needs pitching more than anything.

[SoxSport]

Epstein knows the Red Sox farm system. He also owes them some compensation for allowing him some freedom to roam while under contract. He has a pitcher the Sox could use --Garza. A guy who has pirtched well in the AL east. If Ben C is worth his salt, he should be able to swing a deal with Theo for Garza.

[SoxSport]

Billy Beane is not going to take on any salary. He'd want cheap, young, controllable players in return.

 

Better yet, why don't the Red Sox just not re-sign Ortiz. What's the probability that he's going to hit left handed pitching the way he did last year after not being able to hit it in '08, '09 & '10? I don't know why they'd commit a ton of money to Ortiz when their complaining about not having payroll flexibility & this team needs pitching more than anything.

 

You would think that would be the logical conclusion. I don't see how they can re-sign Papi and fill all their holes in pitching--much less a RHd bat in the outfield.

[User Name]

Epstein knows the Red Sox farm system. He also owes them some compensation for allowing him some freedom to roam while under contract. He has a pitcher the Sox could use --Garza. A guy who has pirtched well in the AL east. If Ben C is worth his salt' date=' he should be able to swing a deal with Theo for Garza.[/b']

 

How does this make sense? What if the Cubs and Red Sox don't match up? Because Epstein knows the system, he may come to the conclusion that the Red Sox don't have the talent he wants for Garza, and how is that Ben's fault?

[SoxSport]

Billy Beane is not going to take on any salary. He'd want cheap' date=' young, controllable players in return.[/b']

 

The Sox have a few of those. Reddick, Kalish, etc. How many right fielders do they need?

Plus the farm system. They have to walk away with either Bailey or Gio. These guys are cost controlled. They have to trade for some cost controlled players if they are going to sign Papi.

[iortiz]

Epstein knows the Red Sox farm system. He also owes them some compensation for allowing him some freedom to roam while under contract. He has a pitcher the Sox could use --Garza. A guy who has pirtched well in the AL east. If Ben C is worth his salt' date=' he should be able to swing a deal with Theo for Garza.[/quote']

 

That Theo comp is myth to me. We should forget that it even exists in order to make trade or something. I don't see this thing as key element to negotiate anymore.

[SoxSport]

That Theo comp is myth to me. We should forget that it even exists in order to make trade or something. I don't see this thing as key element to negotiate anymore.

 

It's still hanging out there, and could be a part of the package. They will have to do something at some point. It isn't a myth.

[a700hitter]

That Theo comp is myth to me. We should forget that it even exists in order to make trade or something. I don't see this thing as key element to negotiate anymore.

It's a myth like Bigfoot, the Abominable Snowman, the and the Loch Ness Monster. Maybe the reason that they didn't lock down the compensation before they granted permission to talk to Theo was that it was more important to the Sox owners that Theo leave.

[SoxSport]

It's a myth like Bigfoot' date=' the Abominable Snowman, the and the Loch Ness Monster. [b']Maybe the reason that they didn't lock down the compensation before they granted permission to talk to Theo was that it was more important to the Sox owners that Theo leave[/b].

 

Yeah, especially after reading that Globe article about how "signing CC and AdGon had long term [salary] implications". In other words, it really killed them as far as signing free agent pitchers this year. Theo really screwed them financially with those signings--especially CC. That cooked his goose in Boston.

[a700hitter]

Yeah' date=' especially after reading that Globe article about how "signing CC and AdGon had long term [salary'] implications". In other words, it really killed them as far as signing free agent pitchers this year. Theo really screwed them financially with those signings--especially CC. That cooked his goose in Boston.

His legacy may be that we are screwed over for a few years.

[iortiz]

It's still hanging out there' date=' and could be a part of the package. They will have to do something at some point. It isn't a myth.[/quote']

 

I don't see something significative in return anymore, since Theo is gone; unless they have a predefined agreement which make clear what is the minimal $ and/or pieces in return.

 

Do you still see this as a key element in order to fill some of our holes or a key element to negotiate with him? Bieng honest, I don't. At very most you will get 1 or 2 mid class prospects, no more.

[iortiz]

It's a myth like Bigfoot' date=' the Abominable Snowman, the and the Loch Ness Monster. Maybe the reason that they didn't lock down the compensation before they granted permission to talk to Theo was that it was more important to the Sox owners that Theo leave.[/quote']

 

 

This theory is interesting. I thought this as well when he left and the compensation hadn't been completed.

[jacksonianmarch]

The AdGon deal isnt a hamstring since he's providing you middle of the order production and is signed through his prime. The Crawford and Lackey signings are the hamstrings. That's $36 mil per yr for at least the next 3 years in players who underachieved in their short stays thus far in Boston. When that much money is tied up in players who are playing well below their capability, then you're in trouble.

 

I have maintained from the beginning that the sox arent going to get a huge name this season. Their rotation is anchored by 3 good, albeit injury prone, starters, and their lineup put up the most runs in baseball. They will rebuild their pen on the cheap, sign 2 guys who they hope can win at the back of the rotation and go to war with that

[Palodios]

So the theory is that the any group of 25 players each making $8 million' date=' the team should rock for a measly sum of $200 million.[/quote']

 

The theory is that I'd rather have 25 good-to-great players than 5 to 10 amazing players and 15-20 mediocre ones.

[a700hitter]

The theory is that I'd rather have 25 good-to-great players than 5 to 10 amazing players and 15-20 mediocre ones.

I didn't realize that it was a serious theory.

[seabeachfred]

Billy Beane is not going to take on any salary. He'd want cheap, young, controllable players in return.

 

Better yet, why don't the Red Sox just not re-sign Ortiz. What's the probability that he's going to hit left handed pitching the way he did last year after not being able to hit it in '08, '09 & '10? I don't know why they'd commit a ton of money to Ortiz when their complaining about not having payroll flexibility & this team needs pitching more than anything.

 

I'd like to know that myself. We don't need Ortiz as much as we need pitching and soe RH hitting outfielder. Could be the Red Sox are frightened he might end up in the Bronx, something that always seems to shake the hell out of Lucchino and Co. every time one of our key players hits free agency. I think Ryan Lavarnway would do well offensively at DH and as second catcher and could hit between 25-30 homers and he gives us a RH bat which we need very badly after Epstein stupidly lefthanded us to death. I'm beginning to have deep misgivings about Cherington's acument as a GM. All of us on this board can see with a clear eye what we need so why does he insist he has to resign Ortiz? We need pitching a lot more.

 

As for the Orioles not wanting Varitek, I just hope that doesn't give Lucchino a wild oat up his ass to resign the guy again. He and Wakefield need to go, finally and utterly.

[a700hitter]

The Bard to the rotation possibility seems to be under serious consideration and it also seems to be Bard's preference. When Gammons raised it during the season as a possibility going forward, many scoffed at the idea. Based on what BC has said, the team and Bard may not be on the same page on this. Losing the who back end of the bullpen would be a huge blow, but Bard would be an enormous upgrade over Wakefield. That would still leave 1 rotation spot to be determined, and if that final spot goes to Aceves, the entire bullpen would have to be built from the ground up. That ain't gonna be easy.

[iortiz]

I'd like to know that myself. We don't need Ortiz as much as we need pitching and soe RH hitting outfielder. Could be the Red Sox are frightened he might end up in the Bronx, something that always seems to shake the hell out of Lucchino and Co. every time one of our key players hits free agency. I think Ryan Lavarnway would do well offensively at DH and as second catcher and could hit between 25-30 homers and he gives us a RH bat which we need very badly after Epstein stupidly lefthanded us to death. I'm beginning to have deep misgivings about Cherington's acument as a GM. All of us on this board can see with a clear eye what we need so why does he insist he has to resign Ortiz? We need pitching a lot more.

 

As for the Orioles not wanting Varitek, I just hope that doesn't give Lucchino a wild oat up his ass to resign the guy again. He and Wakefield need to go, finally and utterly.

 

I 100% agree.

 

If they sign Ortiz and if they do not bust the LT, I really don't see how they are going to fill those pitching holes with solid and proved pieces.

 

This will be interesting and I will be kind of worried if they sign Ortiz and not pitching move yet at that time.

[a700hitter]

I 100% agree.

 

If they sign Ortiz and if we do not bust the LT, I really don't see how they are going to fill those pitching holes with solid and proved pieces.

 

This will be interesting and I will be kind of worry if they sign Ortiz and not pitching move yet at that time.

They'd have to roll the dice with bard and Aceves as starters and try to build an entire bullpen on the cheap. Also, if they convert both Bard and Aceves to starters, they will have no depth in the rotation. Who would be the emergency or spot starter? It would take some skill by the GM and the manager to put together and manager a whole new pen.