2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[RonVermette]

I wonder what the discussion on this board was on September 1st about what we needed next year.

I bet most of the talk was about getting rid of Lackey - done for next year.

I can't remember the last time we went into an offseason without definitely having to a acquire at least one important position player.

We need a #4 starter and I expect us to acquire 3 quality relief pitchers in the hope that at least one of them could be an effective closer. The rest is around the edges, building some depth.

[iortiz]

User--I could use the old bromide of do I believe what his former manager and the FO says or do I believe what my own eyes have seen. Actually my take on Bard was simply my own opinion from those nine games that were entrusted to him with either a tie or us in the lead which he proceeded to blow. Now one thing I heard from Orsillo and Remy was that he seemed to lose some steam off his fastball whenever he started walking people' date=' and when he did that usually a big hit or two and bad news for us came about. He was, after all, 2-9 as a set-up man. That kind of performance as a closer would be a death sentence for the team. [b']I do believe that there is more pressure being a closer than an 8th inning man and if he had trouble doing the latter job it gives me pause to think he might fall far short in the 9th inning role as well[/b]. Again, though, just my opinion.

 

Besides User, it's out of our hands and all we can do is speculate anyway. You said yourself that you don't necessarily disagree with what I said and added that there are a number of directions we could go. We'll see what BV and Co. decide on that score, but to tell you the truth I don't like the idea of Bard facing down Teixeira in the ninth inning with the Red Sox leading 6-5 with two outs and two men on base---neither at Fenway or at YS.

 

You betcha.

 

Shut down pressure>>>Set up pressuere/any reliever spot pressure, and if you rush me, any position.

 

1. Reason why these guys (closers) and mostly elite closers can not be treated as commodities (common relievers).

 

2. Reason why you can not compare his numbers with Paps numbers in order to build an accurate case, or an accurate projection. First, he has to show and prove consistently and continuously that he can handle demanding loads of pressure.

 

Somehow and at some key moments he couldn't handle the pressure. I'm convienced that this is not about mechanics. This is not about physical conditioning. His talent is out of doubt. As I've been saying, his real problem is in his mind, reason why I think he is not ready, not now; unless they help him and fix it with that brain scanner . If they are really considering to make the transition, they better start working with his mind (whatever it means)

[a700hitter]

Your numbers about Bard sure don't paint a pretty picture. Of course, they are somewhat misleading. Bard was, by all measures, one of the leagues best RP last year.

 

As for facing Teixeira and being uncomfortable, I was uncomfortable with papelbon facing him too. That's not going away regardless of who they sign. That's what happens with good hitters and is how opposing closets feel about some sox players.

I don't recall Papelbon having any trouble with Texeira.:dunno:

[a700hitter]

I'm awaiting the opportunity to see what Ben Cherington will be like as a GM. I'm not an apologist for them and, frankly, think that Theo buffered a lot of Larry Lucchino's influence which could have been even worse.

 

I'm done with the FO arguments though. I just hate this point in the offseason. Nobody knows what the Sox are going to do, yet until it happens the posts just sound like they are bound to do nothing. It's absurd.

 

For all we know the Sox could be planning a big push for Yu Darvish.

No one is saying this. We are all waiting to see what they do. You are very cranky today.

[seabeachfred]

I don't know how teams avoid bad FA signings, other than being really conservative. That at least mitigates opportunity for loss. That's what Theo espoused for a couple years. People in the media complained that they were unexciting and should spend their money. It's a tough call.

 

I can't think of a team that hasn't had some failures in FA. Even the beloved Phillies will be regretting their contract for Ryan Howard.

 

I guess due diligence is the most anyone can ask of the sox. If that leads to a strong push for Darvish or Cespedes then so be it.

 

Free agents signings can be a real crapshoot when big money is involved. I think Red Sox fans are a little gun shy is because our last two, Lackey and Crawford, seem to be sunk costs at the present time. I would venture to say that if Carl came back next year and had a strong season the negative feeling we have towards big FA would dissipate. From where I sit, however, it is either spend money on FA or trade prospects for ready veterans. I don't think anyone wants to go in just with what we have now, minus Papelbon, so Cherington or Lucchino or Henry or somebody has to decide if it's one or the other, or a combination of both. I see no other recourse if we want to challenge for something other than watching other teams play in October again.

[Elktonnick]

Free agents signings can be a real crapshoot when big money is involved. I think Red Sox fans are a little gun shy is because our last two' date=' Lackey and Crawford, seem to be sunk costs at the present time. I would venture to say that if Carl came back next year and had a strong season the negative feeling we have towards big FA would dissipate. From where I sit, however, it is either spend money on FA or trade prospects for ready veterans. I don't think anyone wants to go in just with what we have now, minus Papelbon, so Cherington or Lucchino or Henry or somebody has to decide if it's one or the other, or a combination of both. I see no other recourse if we want to challenge for something other than watching other teams play in October again.[/quote']

 

I am not solid on any of FA pitchers out there. I may be willing to take a flier on Beuhrle, however. I definetely prefer him to Wilson who for some reason reminds me of John Lackey.

[seabeachfred]

Your numbers about Bard sure don't paint a pretty picture. Of course, they are somewhat misleading. Bard was, by all measures, one of the leagues best RP last year.

 

As for facing Teixeira and being uncomfortable, I was uncomfortable with papelbon facing him too. That's not going away regardless of who they sign. That's what happens with good hitters and is how opposing closets feel about some sox players.

 

If I can throw Bard a lifeline right now, it could be said fairly that I think we may have overworked him this past season and he might have been gassed out by September. Now what about his early troubles in April, well I have no answer to that. As for that bit about facing Teixeira, I have a recent memory of that last April when the Red Sox and Yankees met in our home opening series. In the ninth inning with us ahead 7-5, Tex came up with two outs and no one on and Paps nailed him on three pitches. Sure, nobody was on and we were up by two but we were also 0-6 at the time so who knew what might take place. He also got him two nights later in the ninth in a 4-0 win. Say what you will about Papelbon but he really did a helluva job for us this year and I can well understand 700 Hitter's misgivings about losing a closer like that. As for who will replace him, I haven't a clue.

[Elktonnick]

If I can throw Bard a lifeline right now' date=' it could be said fairly that I think we may have overworked him this past season and he might have been gassed out by September. Now what about his early troubles in April, well I have no answer to that. As for that bit about facing Teixeira, I have a recent memory of that last April when the Red Sox and Yankees met in our home opening series. In the ninth inning with us ahead 7-5, Tex came up with two outs and no one on and Paps nailed him on three pitches. Sure, nobody was on and we were up by two but we were also 0-6 at the time so who knew what might take place. He also got him two nights later in the ninth in a 4-0 win. Say what you will about Papelbon but he really did a helluva job for us this year and I can well understand 700 Hitter's misgivings about losing a closer like that. As for who will replace him, I haven't a clue.[/quote']

 

There is every indication by what is coming out of the FO both in what they are saying and not saying that they aren't convinced that Bard is ready to close.

[Palodios]

I don't know how teams avoid bad FA signings, other than being really conservative. That at least mitigates opportunity for loss. That's what Theo espoused for a couple years. People in the media complained that they were unexciting and should spend their money. It's a tough call.

.

 

The best bet for the Red Sox is to get mid-range guys. No superstars. No Wilson, no Darvish, no Reyes. Buying elite talent just doesn't seem to work-- it seems that all the best players are either traded into big contracts, or kept by their teams to begin with. Its better to have 25 guys making 8 million a piece than it is to have 10 guys making 18 million a piece, and 15 guys making league minimum.

 

Depth> a handful of superstars and filler.

[User Name]

The best bet for the Red Sox is to get mid-range guys. No superstars. No Wilson, no Darvish, no Reyes. Buying elite talent just doesn't seem to work-- it seems that all the best players are either traded into big contracts, or kept by their teams to begin with. Its better to have 25 guys making 8 million a piece than it is to have 10 guys making 18 million a piece, and 15 guys making league minimum.

 

Depth> a handful of superstars and filler.

 

Unless the league minimum guys are high-upside rookies. That's how everyone comes into the league, and the formula that most small-market teams that have had success use.

[a700hitter]

The best bet for the Red Sox is to get mid-range guys. No superstars. No Wilson, no Darvish, no Reyes. Buying elite talent just doesn't seem to work-- it seems that all the best players are either traded into big contracts, or kept by their teams to begin with. Its better to have 25 guys making 8 million a piece than it is to have 10 guys making 18 million a piece, and 15 guys making league minimum.

 

Depth> a handful of superstars and filler.

That's a $200 million payroll of mediocrity.

[a700hitter]

Marlins Offer Reyes Six-Year, $111MM Deal

By Zach Links [December 4, 2011 at 5:53pm CST]

 

The Marlins have offered Jose Reyes a six-year, $111MM deal, a source tells Enrique Rojas of ESPNDeportesLosAngeles.com (Spanish link). The deal would pay $106MM for six years with a $22MM option for a seventh season with a $5MM buyout.

 

This marks a significant increase from Miami's offer a few weeks ago, which was reportedly in the neighborhood of $90MM over six years.

It looks like the marlins are serious about getting him. I believe their initial offer to Reyes was 6/$90 million.

[WhiskeyBreath]

It looks like the marlins are serious about getting him. I believe their initial offer to Reyes was 6/$90 million.

 

So, if FL lands Reyes, do they shift Hanley or ship him outta town?

[iortiz]

So' date=' if FL lands Reyes, do they shift Hanley or ship him outta town?[/quote']

 

He can play 2B or 3B, can't he?

[a700hitter]

So' date=' if FL lands Reyes, do they shift Hanley or ship him outta town?[/quote']I've heard that they will switch him to 3B or the OF.

[WhiskeyBreath]

He can play 2B or 3B' date=' can't he?[/quote']

 

I'd say 3B.

[a700hitter]

He can play 2B or 3B' date=' can't he?[/quote']He played a good deal of OF in the Sox system is my recollection.

[iortiz]

He played a good deal of OF in the Sox system is my recollection.

 

Seems that all this franchaise restructure project is a serious thing huh?

[a700hitter]

Seems that all this franchaise restructure project is a serious thing huh?

It looks that way. The history of the Marlins has been a very strange one. In their short history they have won 2 World Championships with powerhouse teams that were immediately dismantled in shameful fashion. Maybe the new stadium and the restructured roster will breathe new life into the franchise.

[Elktonnick]

It looks that way. The history of the Marlins has been a very strange one. In their short history they have won 2 World Championships with powerhouse teams that were immediately dismantled in shameful fashion. Maybe the new stadium and the restructured roster will breathe new life into the franchise.

 

Miami will be interesting to watch. It could become a fantastic franchise or into another Dodger mess for MLB, if the SEC investigation turns something up about improper deals regarding their stadium

[a700hitter]

Latest On Albert Pujols

By Zach Links [December 4, 2011 at 10:33pm CST]

 

Here's the latest on Albert Pujols, with the most recent news up top..

 

The Marlins say they still want Pujols after signing Jose Reyes to a six-year, $106MM deal, tweets Bob Nightengale of USA Today.

Other teams believe that the Cubs will try for Albert Pujols by offering him a deal shorter in length than the Cardinals' offer but with a higher average payout per year, tweets Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com. It was recently reported that Chicago planned to pursue both Pujols and Prince Fielder this offseason.

That would be unbelievable if they landed Reyes and Pujols.

[iortiz]

That would be unbelievable if they landed Reyes and Pujols.

 

It's curious that they are trying to build a team with some latin star players, regardless Ozzy is Latin and a polemic character. I guess they are thinking in the large latin market that they have in Miami. I won't be surprised if they sign Cespedes since a lot of Cubans live in that area.

 

Interesting way to attract fans to the stadium.

[example1]

If I can throw Bard a lifeline right now' date=' it could be said fairly that I think we may have overworked him this past season and he might have been gassed out by September. Now what about his early troubles in April, well I have no answer to that. As for that bit about facing Teixeira, I have a recent memory of that last April when the Red Sox and Yankees met in our home opening series. In the ninth inning with us ahead 7-5, Tex came up with two outs and no one on and Paps nailed him on three pitches. Sure, nobody was on and we were up by two but we were also 0-6 at the time so who knew what might take place. He also got him two nights later in the ninth in a 4-0 win. Say what you will about Papelbon but he really did a helluva job for us this year and I can well understand 700 Hitter's misgivings about losing a closer like that. As for who will replace him, I haven't a clue.[/quote']

 

I guess I'm just as influenced by Papelbon's blown save and blown save-loss on September 20th and 29th, both against Baltimore. Two leads slipped through his fingers when they mattered most. Why does everyone act as if that didn't happen?

[example1]

That's a $200 million payroll of mediocrity.

 

 

Any team that leads the league in OBP, SLG, OPS, Total Bases, Runs, Hits, and XBH is far from mediocre.

[a700hitter]

I guess I'm just as influenced by Papelbon's blown save and blown save-loss on September 20th and 29th' date=' both against Baltimore. Two leads slipped through his fingers when they mattered most. Why does everyone act as if that didn't happen?[/quote']I guess you only use the "small sample size" argument when it supports your opinion.

[a700hitter]

 

Any team that leads the league in OBP, SLG, OPS, Total Bases, Runs, Hits, and XBH is far from mediocre.

... And I never said anything that would even approach this ^. I am used to you misconstruing my posts, but this is a big stretch even for you.

[Elktonnick]

 

Any team that leads the league in OBP, SLG, OPS, Total Bases, Runs, Hits, and XBH is far from mediocre.

 

That's the problem with Stats they don't tell the whole story! None of those really matter when you finish third and miss the playoffs, now do they? They finished third in a five team division. For the ALE they were mediocre by definition.

[User Name]

That's the problem with Stats they don't tell the whole story! None of those really matter when you finish third and miss the playoffs' date=' now do they? They finished third in a five team division. For the ALE they were mediocre by definition.[/quote']

 

Nice strawman. Also, where are the pitching statistics? The main problem of the 2011 Boston Red Sox.

[MatParker116]

HardballTalk:

ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick reports that nine teams have expressed interest in free agent Josh Willingham, including the Red Sox, Reds, Guardians and Twins.

 

Willingham, who turns in 33 in February, was seeking a three-year deal at last check. He set career highs with 29 homers and 98 RBI in what was likely his lone season with the A’s in 2011, but his .810 OPS was actually his worst mark in his six years as a regular.

 

Willingham’s history of back problems make him a risk on a long-term deal, but he does have a more potent bat than fellow free agents Michael Cuddyer and Jason Kubel. A three-year deal worth about $8 million per season is realistic. He’d probably be the top candidate to step in as Boston’s primary designated hitter if David Ortiz left. The Reds would use him in left field, while the Guardians could try him as a first baseman. Minnesota likely views him as a fallback option in case Cuddyer exits.

[a700hitter]

Word has been circulating that Ben C has been hitting the raw bar hard at Winter Meetings.