2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[example1]

iOrtiz and I don't agree on everything. We are not in agreement on the players that we would let walk and those who should be pursued. Sometimes he convinces me and sometimes I convince him. Sometimes we just disagree. We don't characterize each other' date=' so we don't read each others posts with a biased predisposition. I don't view him as an optimist, pessimist or anything else. He's just a smart guy that has a lot of interesting thoughts. I don't view you in any particualr category. That may surprise you. Others may put you in the optimist category, but I have been here at times when you were not at all optimistic. You have a tendency never to want to assign blame or fault. That doesn't make you an optimist or a pessimist or a realist. It makes you a bit of a softie. I'm big on accountability. I don't mind owning up to my own mistakes in life, so I feel that others should own up also. I will not hesitate to let someone know that they are wrong, and on an internet forum, there is no need for me to tactful when criticizing people that i don't know and who don't post in this forum, i.e the FO, players, managers and umpires. That shouldn't offend people unless they are related to those people.[/quote']

 

I guess I just think that having others "own up" by talking about them on an internet board is kind of pointless. You know that's not real accountability. In real life people need to take ownership of their f***ups, but this board (as you have pointed out time and again) has no baring on that. In that regard, time spend complaining about moves someone else makes that were reasonable at the time but which end up not working out, is time that could be better spent. I shouldn't let it get to me though.

 

Again, all for accountability, just have a hard time when people (not you necessarily) spend most of their time "holding people accountable" based on outcomes without trying to understand the rationale or reasoning behind particular moves, or giving credence to the many intangable and unpredictable things that happen in this game that make "accountability" a very hazy topic indeed.

[a700hitter]

I have to get some sleep. I need to get up early and clean everything out of my parents house for the closing this week. Let me just leave you with the following: Losing Papelbon is a pretty much black and white bad thing. The FO has a lot of work to do to move this into the grey area.

 

Finally, this blunt opinion: MLB managers as a group are a pool of idiots. Ben, just pick one and get to work on the roster.

[a700hitter]

I guess I just think that having others "own up" by talking about them on an internet board is kind of pointless. You know that's not real accountability. In real life people need to take ownership of their f***ups, but this board (as you have pointed out time and again) has no baring on that. In that regard, time spend complaining about moves someone else makes that were reasonable at the time but which end up not working out, is time that could be better spent. I shouldn't let it get to me though.

 

Again, all for accountability, just have a hard time when people (not you necessarily) spend most of their time "holding people accountable" based on outcomes without trying to understand the rationale or reasoning behind particular moves, or giving credence to the many intangable and unpredictable things that happen in this game that make "accountability" a very hazy topic indeed.

But it is just opinion and none of it should offend other posters. It's kind of harmless. Whether you agreed with us or not, all of the people who iOrtiz, SCM and me felt were responsible are gone, so I think our opinions were pretty much dead on.

[iortiz]

iOrtiz and I don't agree on everything. We are not in agreement on the players that we would let walk and those who should be pursued. Sometimes he convinces me and sometimes I convince him. Sometimes we just disagree. We don't characterize each other' date=' so we don't read each others posts with a biased predisposition. I don't view him as an optimist, pessimist or anything else. He's just a smart guy that has a lot of interesting thoughts. I don't view you in any particualr category. That may surprise you. Others may put you in the optimist category, but I have been here at times when you were not at all optimistic. You have a tendency never to want to assign blame or fault. That doesn't make you an optimist or a pessimist or a realist. It makes you a bit of a softie. I'm big on accountability. I don't mind owning up to my own mistakes in life, so I feel that others should own up also. I will not hesitate to let someone know that they are wrong, and on an internet forum, there is no need for me to tactful when criticizing people that i don't know and who don't post in this forum, i.e the FO, players, managers and umpires. That shouldn't offend people unless they are related to those people.[/quote']

 

Thanks, the feeling is mutual.

 

As I said, sometimes some posters feel more identified wth some, and other times with with others, but in the end, each poster has his/her thoughts.

 

As I said as well, I usually feel identified how A700, SCM33, Ted101 among others see the game. They are so clear and consistent in their arguments.

 

Other poster who seems to know a lot about the game is ORS. I wonder if he is sabermetrician or something. He knows all about stats. He always builts numeric cases for everything. Jacko and yankee44 usually have good points as well even being yankee fans in a Red Sox board. I like Emmz' BPEF's Washta's Spudboy's music taste.

 

Anyway, I think that the board is well mixed.

[SoxSport]

Actually I am worried that Cherington is just waiting for the price on Ortiz to keep going down but I honestly do not want Ortiz at this point and if he continues to pursue Ortiz in any way shape or form then I think the chances go up considerably that they do in fact trade Ells this year. You just cannot go into the season this left handed.

 

Yeah...they don't want to be boxed in re-signing Papi the way they were when they re-signed Wakefield the last year or two. Papi's age and contract year spike make him look risky, though not as risky as Pap was. But Papi is one dimensional, and spreading the DH around to position players gives them more depth and versatility, especially if they sign Beltran with the money saved.

[a700hitter]

Thanks, the feeling is mutual.

 

As I said, sometimes some posters feel more identified wth some, and other times with with others, but in the end, each poster has his/her thoughts.

 

As I said as well, I usually feel identified how A700, SCM33, Ted101 among others see the game. They are so clear and consistent in their arguments.

 

Other poster who seems to know a lot about the game is ORS. I wonder if he is sabermetrician or something. He knows all about stats. He always builts numeric cases for everything. Jacko and yankee44 usually have good points as well even being yankee fans in a Red Sox board. I like Emmz' BPEF's Washta's Spudboy's music taste.

 

Anyway, I think that the board is well mixed.

I think ORS is an engineer. He's also a smart alek.

[a700hitter]

I think ORS is an engineer. He's also a smart alek.

ORS, don't let your head explode. keep in mind that it comes from a self acknowledged know it all.

[example1]

Would it be possible for the Sox to land both Ortiz and Beltran this offseason, or are they mutually exclusive signings? It seems like a move like that, coupled with moving Kalish or Reddick + (Reddick, please) to a team like the White Sox for a pitcher (Floyd), would be a strong offseason. I'm pretty strongly in favor of signing Beltran, not so much in favor of Ortiz, unless he comes along with a guy like Beltran.

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Beltran

Crawford

Lavarnway/Salty

Scutaro

 

That's a pretty fearsome lineup, if you ask me. Lavarnway will be the best offensive catcher the Sox have had since Varitek was in his prime and will add a lot of length.

[redsoxrules]

that would be a sick lineup , especially if Crawford plays like he's supposed to

[example1]

that would be a sick lineup ' date=' especially if Crawford plays like he's supposed to[/quote']

 

Seems like it is only possible if

a) Beltran signs for a reasonable amount

Ortiz signs for what a DH should sign for

c) The Sox do some cost cutting in other areas or make some cheap acquisitions or trades.

 

or...

 

d) John Henry says f*** it and opens his wallet to supplement n already very expensive team.

[iortiz]

Would it be possible for the Sox to land both Ortiz and Beltran this offseason, or are they mutually exclusive signings? It seems like a move like that, coupled with moving Kalish or Reddick + (Reddick, please) to a team like the White Sox for a pitcher (Floyd), would be a strong offseason. I'm pretty strongly in favor of signing Beltran, not so much in favor of Ortiz, unless he comes along with a guy like Beltran.

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Beltran

Crawford

Lavarnway/Salty

Scutaro

 

That's a pretty fearsome lineup, if you ask me. Lavarnway will be the best offensive catcher the Sox have had since Varitek was in his prime and will add a lot of length.

 

I definitely like that lineup E1.

 

My only concern would be: since the RedSox arguably are not considering to go over the cap (likely, since let Pap walk), how much money would we have available after these signings (Ortiz, Beltran) in order to fill the other needs which btw IMO those are our #1 priority (SP, BP arms and pitching depth)? we have 20 M before the cap, right?

 

From what I read, Cherington is trying to resign Ortiz, and exploring Beltran avenue as well, but I'm not sure whether he is considering signing both.

[iortiz]

Seems like it is only possible if

a) Beltran signs for a reasonable amount

Ortiz signs for what a DH should sign for

c) The Sox do some cost cutting in other areas or make some cheap acquisitions or trades.

 

or...

 

d) John Henry says f*** it and opens his wallet to supplement n already very expensive team.

 

:thumbsup:

[Kimmi]

Seems like it is only possible if

a) Beltran signs for a reasonable amount

Ortiz signs for what a DH should sign for

c) The Sox do some cost cutting in other areas or make some cheap acquisitions or trades.

 

or...

 

d) John Henry says f*** it and opens his wallet to supplement n already very expensive team.

 

I like the idea of signing Beltran, although his ability to play everyday in the field is a concern due to his knees. I can't see both Ortiz and Beltran being signed, and personally, I'd rather the Red Sox didn't. I would prefer rotating players in the DH role. Youkilis could probably benefit from the time out of the field, as could Beltran. Between Lavarnway, Beltran, Youkilis, and whomever else is on the bench, there should be no shortage of power from that spot. Then, you're also not handcuffed in games played in NL parks.

[SoxSport]

I think Henry and Lucchino are looking not to increase payroll. They haven't said it, but going beyond $160 mil would put them into large luxury tax territory pretty fast. To me, that means no Pap and no Papi, if they want to add a starter and a right handed bat for RF and DH.

[seabeachfred]

And pitching depth, Fred, pitching depth.

 

Not having pitching depth last season killed this team. We have to learn that injuries are always around the corner and mostly in SPs.

 

Who'se to argue iortiz? As it is I said we need a quality starter, closer and three other relievers. You want more? Fine, let's get all we can, but this time let's make sure we get some quality instead of some of the excess garbage Epstein always seemed to stick us with. Epstein was always weak in this regard and I came to believe that bullpens were either not very important to him or he didn't know how to build them. The one year our bullpen was the best in the American League was 2007. Guess how we did that year?:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[seabeachfred]

The contract he got was very reasonable and it would have taken him to the creaky old age of 34.

 

Tell me this E1, where are we going to find a lock down 8th inning guy like Bard? Answer, we will not. Add to that the fact that Bard may not have the necessary closer mentality and you might very well have weakened the team in the 8th and 9th innings. You like stats. Check the stats for the Sox for games when they were ahead going into the 8th inning. Until Bard and Papelbon melted down at the tail end of their seasons, the record was phenomenal. That 8th and 9th inning stability will be substantially eroded and that will have a cascading effect to an already weak remainder of the bullpen.

 

Right 700!!!! Some of our friends are not understanding the ripple effects of losing Papelbon and not replacing him with anybody----yet. Can Bard close? No real way of knowing if he has the mental toughness for that. Who finishes the 8th inning, who is our 7th inning man? Our whole bullpen is now in a state of flux, and, please, don't anyone out there try and sell Jenks to me. That was another bum bullpen move by Epstein. Aceves you say? Well then what about the rotation? We become weak there because we are still two short, and, please again, no suggestions about Wakefield. He must become a non-person in this argument. Iortiz says pitching depth and pitching depth and we better be on the beam with that. And this time we have to get it right in the bullpen and in the starting rotation. For the record, I wouldn't have paid Papelbon $50 million for four years, but we still need a closer and some other relievers and we will have to pay for them in either money, players or blood.

[seabeachfred]

Firstly' date=' Papelbon will be one month away from 36 when the contract ends, if the option vests. If the option doesn't vest, it already means the contract was a failure, so we have to assume it will vest. And what is wrong with Aceves in the 8th? Nowhere as good as Bard, but he's still a very good option. The problem is filling the #5 starter slot.[/quote']

 

Whoa Palodios, you lost me there. If Aceves is your choice for the 8th inning and the problem is filling in the #5 starter, would you please enlighten me who our No. 4 starter will be? And, please, don't say Wakefield.

[iortiz]

Who'se to argue iortiz? As it is I said we need a quality starter' date=' closer and three other relievers. You want more? Fine, let's get all we can, but this time let's make sure we get some quality instead of some of the excess garbage Epstein always seemed to stick us with. Epstein was always weak in this regard and I came to believe that bullpens were either not very important to him or he didn't know how to build them. The one year our bullpen was the best in the American League was 2007. Guess how we did that year?:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:[/quote']

 

My bad, I thought you missed that point.

 

I would add pitching depth as well as a must. What the last 3 years showed us is that injuries are all around the corner and specially in SPs. Plus, if any of our rotation decides to s*** the bed like our unnameable friend John Lackey we will be kind of covered.

[seabeachfred]

So I just took a look at Joe Nathan's stats. He's the real deal. From 2003 to 2009' date=' he has an ERA of 2.02, WHIP of .95, ERA+ of 216. He was recovering from injury in 2011, but I say... he is our guy. Undervalued, true closer who has playoff experience. The more I look at him, the more and more convinced that he is the best option for this team.[/quote']

 

Nathan? Good competitor and tough presence on the mound Palodios, but there might be one fly in the ointment. From what I can recall he has never been anything but zilch against the Yankees. I wonder if there is anywhere to check and see his record and ERA against that team? In the Playoffs they have batted him around pretty good from what I remember.

[User Name]

Joe Nathan career versus the Yankees: 3.71 ERA, 1.23 WHIP, 10.1 K/9, 5 SV, 3 L in 17.0 IP.

[Elktonnick]

Nathan? Good competitor and tough presence on the mound Palodios' date=' but there might be one fly in the ointment. From what I can recall he has never been anything but zilch against the Yankees. I wonder if there is anywhere to check and see his record and ERA against that team? In the Playoffs they have batted him around pretty good from what I remember.[/quote']

 

It seems that Nathan or a Nathan type seems to be part of the sox thinking. Cherington keeps saying no major FA signings.

[seabeachfred]

Joe Nathan career versus the Yankees: 3.71 ERA' date=' 1.23 WHIP, 10.1 K/9, 5 SV, 3 L in 17.0 IP.[/quote']

 

Kind of a mixed bag from where I sit unless I am expecting too much. At any rate thanks UN!! I get the feeling the Red Sox might be thinking along his lines---a year with a mutual option. Just the same, I would not like to go into 2012 with Bard as closer and Aceves as the 8th inning man, especially since Ace might be needed in the rotation.

 

For the record, I hated to see Papelbon go but I also thought $50 million and four years was a little on the ridiculous side. Still I hold out we need a closer, two or three extra relief pitchers, a RH hitting outfielder, a decent #4 starter and.....well, we've gone through this before. Anyway thanks. Am I no longer on your ignore list? That would be fine.

[T_Bone]

seabeachfred

How about them Dodgers you f***ing idiot?

[mvp 78]

Just make Aceves the closer. I'd rather him than Bard.

[jung]

Boy we have had Bard and Aceves all over the place so far:

Bard closes, Aceves starts

Bard and Aceves both in middle relief

Bard in middle relief, Aceves starts

Bard starts, Aceves in middle relief

Bard starting or in middle relief, Aceves closes

 

The only combination I have not heard yet is both Bard and Aceves starting.

[Elktonnick]

Boy we have had Bard and Aceves all over the place so far:

Bard closes, Aceves starts

Bard and Aceves both in middle relief

Bard in middle relief, Aceves starts

Bard starts, Aceves in middle relief

Bard starting or in middle relief, Aceves closes

 

The only combination I have not heard yet is both Bard and Aceves starting.

 

Actually Bard's on first, Aceves on second , and What's on third ! and my new handle is Bud Abbott and yours is Lou Costello.

[jung]

Here I will go ya' one better although I think it is LL pulling the strings.

 

"Bard's on first, Aceves on second , and What's on third and where is Cherington....I don't know!"

[Elktonnick]

LOL Can't top that! Maybe someone else will try.

[seabeachfred]

Boy we have had Bard and Aceves all over the place so far:

Bard closes, Aceves starts

Bard and Aceves both in middle relief

Bard in middle relief, Aceves starts

Bard starts, Aceves in middle relief

Bard starting or in middle relief, Aceves closes

 

The only combination I have not heard yet is both Bard and Aceves starting.

 

Well just be patient Jung and you'll get that twosome in the rotation by someone. But what are we to do? We're short at least one starter, maybe two. We lost our best reliever and we're left with Ace and Bard and need at least three more guys in the bullpen. What we have after those two guys are....well, just ask yourself this: Would any of the other relievers still on the roster be trusted with a one or two run lead at Yankee Stadium going into the bottom of the ninth inning? Well there you have it. We're right now in a pickle. My good friend Elk has the right solution for the time being.....make it into an Abbott and Costello skit and see what sticks.

[a700hitter]

Would it be possible for the Sox to land both Ortiz and Beltran this offseason, or are they mutually exclusive signings? It seems like a move like that, coupled with moving Kalish or Reddick + (Reddick, please) to a team like the White Sox for a pitcher (Floyd), would be a strong offseason. I'm pretty strongly in favor of signing Beltran, not so much in favor of Ortiz, unless he comes along with a guy like Beltran.

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Beltran

Crawford

Lavarnway/Salty

Scutaro

 

That's a pretty fearsome lineup, if you ask me. Lavarnway will be the best offensive catcher the Sox have had since Varitek was in his prime and will add a lot of length.

I think it is possible and this lineup could bludgeon its way to compete for a playoff spot. I think we need a big time acquisition for the pitching staff to make up for losing a key piece like Papelbon. Our starting rotation is already thin and now the bullpen is very very thin too.