2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[Meh]

Gonzalez has proven more than Buchholz' date=' so he'd be a #3 in Boston. But still, the A's will ask for the farm for Gonzalez. And they should[/quote']

 

Agreed, Gonzalez is going to get a nice haul. One reason why I don't want him cause Beane will ask for quite more than he's worth.

[jung]

Yea I guess...I am probably giving too much credit to Buckholtz for pitching in this part in the AL East. If he could have put two 2010 seasons back to back that would have been impressive.

[Palodios]

Wasn't the initial point of this conversation Gonzales? If it was, he's not going to cost #3 value. That is precisely my point. You either go for an AL guy who's cost is what you expect it to be, or a high-upside NL guy who's cost is not prohibitive.

 

Gonzalez may be almost as costly as Cain, knowing the market for younger arms.

 

I had been discussing the A's as a good trade target earlier in the thread, not necessarily their best pitcher.

[User Name]

I had been discussing the A's as a good trade target earlier in the thread' date=' not necessarily their best pitcher.[/quote']

 

Their other good pitchers are Cahill (whose peripherals suggest has been getting by on luck) Anderson (elbow surgery) Gonzalez (already discussed) and McCarthy (who shouldn't be touched with a ten-foot pole)

 

I don't see the match, unless there's something about one of their younger pitchers i'm unaware of.

[jacksonianmarch]

Cahill is a contact pitcher who doesnt throw hard and gives up longballs. He'd die in the AL East.

 

Gonzalez would be a sink or swim pitcher. He has AJ Burnett type stuff from the left side. But the walks are killer and in the AL East, he'd be a 6 inning pitcher for the most part, IMO, at least to start. But, at 26, he could improve his stuff and take his place as an ace. His numbers the last 2 yrs have been impressive.

[seabeachfred]

Ironically from where I'm sitting, our talk about starting pitching might be hinging on what we do with Papelbon. I've read the numerous posts predicting Ortiz will stay with us and maybe he will. However, we lose out if he stays and Papelbon goes. Our bullpen then completely turns to crap and we have to sign another closer who is not as good as Paps is. Then most likely Aceves stays there and we have to get two starting pitchers. David has done great things for the Red Sox and it would be great if we could resign both of them and still get a RH hitting outfielder which we'd need to counter the overbalance of lefties in the batting order. How much money would then be left for pitching? One or the other has to go and I think we could absorb Papi's loss much better than Papelbon's.

[jung]

Almost every way you look at it Ortiz $12M starts to look pretty attractive when you begin to realize you need to get more bucks from someplace besides JH's pockets.

[a700hitter]

Duquette agrees to three-year deal with O's

November 6, 2011 08:54 PM

By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff

 

According to the Associated Press, the Baltimore Orioles have signed Dan Duquette to a three-year deal to become the GM.

 

Duquette, 53, has been out of baseball since being fired by the Red Sox in 2002. The Massachusetts native, whose Red Sox tenure was marked with both success and rancor, is expected to be introduced today.

 

Duquette faces a major challenge. Baltimore has not had a winning season since 1997 and has not won more than 70 games since 2006. Owner Peter Angelos is viewed as a meddler while most believe that manager Buck Showalter holds all the power in terms of baseball operations.

 

The Orioles are clearly behind the Yankees, Rays, Red Sox and Blue Jays in terms of major league talent and prospects. But Duquette finally gets another chance to make his mark on a major league franchise.

 

It's amazing that Duquette gets a GM job just a few weeks after one of his prot?g?s, Ben Cherington, is named GM of he Red Sox. It was Duquette who hired Cherington in 1999 as an amateur scout.

Hmmm, Abraham says that Cherrington is Duquette's protege not Theo's protege.

[example1]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1378238&position=1

 

Hmm, Lauber says that Cherington is Theo's protege.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/15243/sox-cubs-dipping-into-same-managerial-pool

 

Hmm, so does Gordon Edes...

 

Yes, it is clever to say that Cherington is actually Duquette's protege, as if Cherington has been learning and practicing "the Duquette way" since Duquette was relieved of his duties in 2002... but it isn't the case.

 

In the sense of how the word is meant to be--not merely having a passing association with someone, but actually being mentored, guided and promoted by them--Cherington is definitely Theo's protege.

 

I know you're mostly f***ing with me though, a700.

 

Would you really like to return to the days of Dan Duquette? Seriously?

[a700hitter]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1378238&position=1

 

Hmm, Lauber says that Cherington is Theo's protege.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/15243/sox-cubs-dipping-into-same-managerial-pool

 

Hmm, so does Gordon Edes...

 

Yes, it is clever to say that Cherington is actually Duquette's protege, as if Cherington has been learning and practicing "the Duquette way" since Duquette was relieved of his duties in 2002... but it isn't the case.

 

In the sense of how the word is meant to be--not merely having a passing association with someone, but actually being mentored, guided and promoted by them--Cherington is definitely Theo's protege.

 

I know you're mostly f***ing with me though, a700.

 

Would you really like to return to the days of Dan Duquette? Seriously?

Duquette was never the problem. It was the prior owners that were the problem. Duke had a good record with the Red Sox and with the Expos. Let's see how Theo does with the Cubs. I wouldn't expect much. Overall, he was a disappointment during his Red Sox tenure. I expected more than 1 Division title. The Yanks were ripe for taking several years.

 

I heard that Ben never really liked Theo, and that Ben got Duke tickets to the 2004 World Series.

[a700hitter]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1378238&position=1

 

Hmm, Lauber says that Cherington is Theo's protege.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/15243/sox-cubs-dipping-into-same-managerial-pool

 

Hmm, so does Gordon Edes...

 

Yes, it is clever to say that Cherington is actually Duquette's protege, as if Cherington has been learning and practicing "the Duquette way" since Duquette was relieved of his duties in 2002... but it isn't the case.

 

In the sense of how the word is meant to be--not merely having a passing association with someone, but actually being mentored, guided and promoted by them--Cherington is definitely Theo's protege.

 

I know you're mostly f***ing with me though, a700.

 

Would you really like to return to the days of Dan Duquette? Seriously?

Cherrington

wasted no time in disavowing Theo's position with regard to J.D. He said that emotional investment is an important aspect to him.

[example1]

Duquette was never the problem. It was the prior owners that were the problem. Duke had a good record with the Red Sox and with the Expos. Let's see how Theo does with the Cubs. I wouldn't expect much. Overall, he was a disappointment during his Red Sox tenure. I expected more than 1 Division title. The Yanks were ripe for taking several years.

 

I heard that Ben never really liked Theo, and that Ben got Duke tickets to the 2004 World Series.

 

I heard Cherington once almost pushed Theo off a bridge and was banging his wife.

 

I'm still puzzled by your fascination with division titles in the wild card era. They really aren't the most significant measure of success. Given that Theo just put up the most successful tenure in sox GM history I don't see how you can be disappointed. Or, I don't see how a person who is reasonable could be disappointed. I know you well enough to not be surprised. you are the guy with fingers crossed who prays to the heavens for a key strikeout or basehit, promising untold loyalty and humility if you can only win this one time, then quickly turn around and ask "what have you done for me lately".

 

Yeah it is your right as a fan to hindsight the very moves you were a fan of, or to conveniently forget the joy you felt in 04 and 07, but I have a harder time separating the difference between being a fan and my day to day personality. I don't hold sports figures to higher standards than I hold everyone else in my life. If I thought it was a good move then I can't do too much second guessing-- it just feels intellectually dishonest. If I realize that winning WS titles is really hard then I don't s*** on those who got my team 2 of them.

[SoxSport]

Agreed' date=' Gonzalez is going to get a nice haul. One reason why I don't want him cause Beane will ask for quite more than he's worth.[/quote']

 

Maybe Beane will take Youkilis for him. That would be a good trade for the Sox.

 

Youks was the guy Beane/DePodesta wanted as compensation for Beane in '02--rated him #1prospect because he had the highest OBP in the minor leagues.

[SoxSport]

Duquette was never the problem. It was the prior owners that were the problem. Duke had a good record with the Red Sox and with the Expos. Let's see how Theo does with the Cubs. I wouldn't expect much. Overall, he was a disappointment during his Red Sox tenure. I expected more than 1 Division title. The Yanks were ripe for taking several years.

 

I heard that Ben never really liked Theo, and that Ben got Duke tickets to the 2004 World Series.

 

I would agree. And I hope you're right about Ben.

 

The Boston media never liked Duquette--One reason is he got on Gammons shitlist for not giving him the Manny Ramirez signing story, which was a huge story at the time.

 

The Duke doesn't get enough credit for the Sox '04 championship. However, Harrington opened his pocketbook only when he was going to put the Sox up for sale--to increase their assets.

I remember Fenway as rundown and dirty under Harrington. It was revived by Henry.

But I read this morning the Red Sox raked Boston over the coals with the leasing of Lansdowne street. The City leased it for a pittance without a % of the profits, and the Red Sox have made millions on concessions and the Monster overhang outside of the Park. Your taxes at work.

[a700hitter]

I heard Cherington once almost pushed Theo off a bridge and was banging his wife.

 

I'm still puzzled by your fascination with division titles in the wild card era. They really aren't the most significant measure of success. Given that Theo just put up the most successful tenure in sox GM history I don't see how you can be disappointed. Or, I don't see how a person who is reasonable could be disappointed. I know you well enough to not be surprised. you are the guy with fingers crossed who prays to the heavens for a key strikeout or basehit, promising untold loyalty and humility if you can only win this one time, then quickly turn around and ask "what have you done for me lately".

 

Yeah it is your right as a fan to hindsight the very moves you were a fan of, or to conveniently forget the joy you felt in 04 and 07, but I have a harder time separating the difference between being a fan and my day to day personality. I don't hold sports figures to higher standards than I hold everyone else in my life. If I thought it was a good move then I can't do too much second guessing-- it just feels intellectually dishonest. If I realize that winning WS titles is really hard then I don't s*** on those who got my team 2 of them.

I'm not disappointed with 2 World Series championships, but that being said after 2004, I was convinced that the tide had changed and that we would be winning more Division Championships than the Yankees. It never came to pass even though we had the talent and the resources. In that regard, Theo fell short of expectations. His teams missed the playoffs 3 times while winning 1 Division. Going forward, if another wild card team is added, it will be very critical to win the Division. Hopefully, Ben will do a better job of it than Theo.

 

I expected more afte 2004 than we got, and Theo left us in a mess with a payroll clogged long term with under performing players and no help on the immediate horizon from the minors. He beat a hasty retreat from the mess he made.

[example1]

Cherrington

wasted no time in disavowing Theo's position with regard to J.D. He said that emotional investment is an important aspect to him.

 

I suspect you didn't listen to that interview. I heard it. He did not "disavow" Theo's position. He pointed out some of the aspects that he might look at that Theo did not, but he didn't say "that was a crappy signing". You will undoubtedly say "if you read between the lines he did" but I would say that is not "wasting no time in disavowing". That's not at all how that came out. Nice try.

[example1]

I'm not disappointed with 2 World Series championships, but that being said after 2004, I was convinced that the tide had changed and that we would be winning more Division Championships than the Yankees. It never came to pass even though we had the talent and the resources. In that regard, Theo fell short of expectations. His teams missed the playoffs 3 times while winning 1 Division. Going forward, if another wild card team is added, it will be very critical to win the Division. Hopefully, Ben will do a better job of it than Theo.

 

I expected more afte 2004 than we got, and Theo left us in a mess with a payroll clogged long term with under performing players and no help on the immediate horizon from the minors. He beat a hasty retreat from the mess he made.

 

Right, but this is all about your expectations, which are notoriously unrealistic. You expected that they should have won more division titles, despite being outspent by the Yankees every year, and it wasn't even close.

 

Yet, you expect that the Sox should beat every other team who they outspend. In other words, Yankee fans should have rightly expected to win the division every year because they had a huge financial advantage, even over a relatively wealthy team like the Sox.

[VA Sox Fan]

I'm not disappointed with 2 World Series championships, but that being said after 2004, I was convinced that the tide had changed and that we would be winning more Division Championships than the Yankees. It never came to pass even though we had the talent and the resources. In that regard, Theo fell short of expectations. His teams missed the playoffs 3 times while winning 1 Division. Going forward, if another wild card team is added, it will be very critical to win the Division. Hopefully, Ben will do a better job of it than Theo.

 

I expected more afte 2004 than we got, and Theo left us in a mess with a payroll clogged long term with under performing players and no help on the immediate horizon from the minors. He beat a hasty retreat from the mess he made.

 

 

Maybe you have forgotten how miserable things were prior to 2004 and what a joke the Red Sox and their fan base was. You developed the mindset of some of the NYY fans who expect to win every year and anything short of a WS title is a failure.

 

Are you trying to outdo seabeachfred in the Theo bashing department? I will never understand it. Ever.

[User Name]

People don't seem to understand that extremes are bad.

 

If you're a Theo ballwasher you're an idiot, but if you're an illogical Theo basher, you're an idiot as well.

 

It's not that difficult:

 

He was a good GM, but he made mistakes like every other GM. The "Theo was the worst GM ever" rethoric gets tired quickly. If you want to see bad managing check out the Cubs, Baltimore, or Seattle, all teams with money that suck ass and haven't won anything in forever (see what i did there, Cubs fans?) yet the Sox win 2 WS championships in a decade, and field a contender every year. What more do people want?

 

A couple of good breaks in 2010, and this team makes it all the way. In 2011, the team had some construction flaws, but it's still a solid core that, with a few improvements, could go all the way.

 

Theo sucks? GTFO.

 

Theo was the best ever? GTFO.

 

Logic people.

[Laser Show]

When you have hundreds of millions to spend year in and year out, your judgement can get cloudy. You lose the edge that GMs like Beane had where they have to budget and balance the checkbook. Instead, you can think, "Well he's good, let's get him". Epstein I'm sure, is an excellent GM, but in systems like NY, Boston, Philly, Chicago, Detroit, you can just try to sign anyone you think will help. A few bad contracts won't hurt these teams unlike if the Pirates were to sign Pujols and he got hurt, they'd be down and out for another 20 years.

 

This has been Bostons best decade since the 1910s. A lot of our fans are starting to act like entitled Yankees fans, and it sucks. I'd be happy for 1 or 2 WS appearances a decade, but let's be realistic, a lot of teams won't even get that.

[a700hitter]

Maybe you have forgotten how miserable things were prior to 2004 and what a joke the Red Sox and their fan base was. You developed the mindset of some of the NYY fans who expect to win every year and anything short of a WS title is a failure.

 

Are you trying to outdo seabeachfred in the Theo bashing department? I will never understand it. Ever.

The Red Sox stopped being miserable jokes in 1967. After that, they always had exciting competitive teams (with the exception of the Hobson managerial years). The Yankees on the other hand were jokes until 1974. In the late 60's and early 70's, Dick O'Connell the best Red Sox GM ever, produced stars at an astonishing rate and their teams of the mid and late 70's were exciting powerhouses that had to compete in the same division with 2 other powerhouses- the Yanks and the Orioles. The 1978 team won 99 games-- more than any Theo team. They won Division titles in 3 out of five years from '86 - '90 back in the days when there were only 2 divisions. I don't consider 1 division title in 9 years to be an accomplishment befitting iconic status.

 

I am not bashing Theo, just putting him in perspective. In his swan song season he managed to produce the biggest joke of a debacle by any Red Sox team in history. In 45 years of rooting for this team, I have never seen anything like it. Theo became a cult figure in New England, but his resume doesn't back it up. Just putting him in perspective. Not bashing. There have been plenty of GMs who have been far worse - too many to list here..

[a700hitter]

Yet' date=' you expect that the Sox should beat every other team who they outspend. In other words, Yankee fans should have rightly expected to win the division every year because they had a huge financial advantage, even over a relatively wealthy team like the Sox.[/quote']I never said any such thing. LOL! Those are your words. I said that 1 Division title in 9 seasons is not a great record. It just isn't. We have the same number of Division titles as Tampa who was a doormat until 2008. I didn't say Theo was terrible or the worst ever-- not even close. His performance and record just doesn't match the adulation and his icon status. He made plenty of mistakes, most notably building bullpens and signing free agents. I am not saying he sucks- just trying to put him in perspective. You go nuts if I say that Ben is Duquette's protege, so I'm not the one who can't judge Theo with objectivity.

[a700hitter]

I suspect you didn't listen to that interview. I heard it. He did not "disavow" Theo's position. He pointed out some of the aspects that he might look at that Theo did not' date=' but he didn't say "that was a crappy signing". You will undoubtedly say "if you read between the lines he did" but I would say that is not "wasting no time in disavowing". That's not at all how that came out. Nice try.[/quote']Be realistic, no successor is ever going to call his predecessor's move "crappy". He leaves no doubt that Drew was not his type of player, and you don't have to try too hard to read between the lines.

[iortiz]

As always, A700 is accurate about Theo's matter.

 

I wonder why they didn't even try to go after Andrew Friedman...

 

I don't have anything against Cherington, but I would have blown the entire FO and coaching staff and rebuild it from ashes.

 

Anyway... hope that Cherington bring the pieces we need and don't s*** the bed at the FA like Epstein.

[FredLynn]

People don't seem to understand that extremes are bad.

 

If you're a Theo ballwasher you're an idiot, but if you're an illogical Theo basher, you're an idiot as well.

 

It's not that difficult:

 

He was a good GM, but he made mistakes like every other GM. The "Theo was the worst GM ever" rethoric gets tired quickly. If you want to see bad managing check out the Cubs, Baltimore, or Seattle, all teams with money that suck ass and haven't won anything in forever (see what i did there, Cubs fans?) yet the Sox win 2 WS championships in a decade, and field a contender every year. What more do people want?

 

A couple of good breaks in 2010, and this team makes it all the way. In 2011, the team had some construction flaws, but it's still a solid core that, with a few improvements, could go all the way.

 

Theo sucks? GTFO.

 

Theo was the best ever? GTFO.

 

Logic people.

 

No, Theo was not an idiot here; he did not suck in terms of overall performance. His area of success, or at least the area where his management team succeeded, was in developing young players like Pedroia, Lester, and Ellsbury, among others. However, his list of failures in the free agency arena reads like a bad novel. He gets an "F" in this area. Overall, I would grade him a "C". Not a total failure, but not someone I would want as GM for my ML team.

[a700hitter]

No' date=' Theo was not an idiot here; he did not suck in terms of overall performance. His area of success, or at least the area where his management team succeeded, was in developing young players like Pedroia, Lester, and Ellsbury, among others. However, his list of failures in the free agency arena reads like a bad novel. He gets an "F" in this area. Overall, I would grade him a "C". Not a total failure, but not someone I would want as GM for my ML team.[/quote']A fair grade. I'd probably grade him a B-.

[Palodios]

A fair grade. I'd probably grade him a B-.

 

 

I'm a little bit surprised.

[iortiz]

2003-2008 B+

2009-2011 F

Overall C

[a700hitter]

 

I'm a little bit surprised.

You buy into E1's hype that anyone who criticizes Theo must hate him or that any criticism means that the guy is a zero. LOL! I am aiming for some perspective in viewing him. The iconic facade needs to be stripped away before you can objectively judge him. B minus is a fair grade IMO.

[Palodios]

You buy into E1's hype that anyone who criticizes Theo must hate him or that any criticism means that the guy is a zero. LOL! I am aiming for some perspective in viewing him. The iconic facade needs to be stripped away before you can objectively judge him. B minus is a fair grade IMO.

 

Well,in all fairness, you do criticize him rather often