2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[example1]

I don't know if Oakland knows what it's doing this offseason' date=' well until there stadium issue is resolved. Hopefully, Beane still has the hots for Youkilis. So maybe, Youkilis and Raunado plus cash gets it's done.[/quote']

 

Youkilis and Ranaudo for Gio? That sounds like a significant overpay to me. Youkilis is a legitimate cleanup hitter on a major market team. Gio is a young but inconsistent SP. Not that deal please.

 

In fact there are other pitchers on Oakland I would probably look at first, either as buy low candidates or as more consistent options.

[seabeachfred]

In fairness' date=' he took over a team with a very strong core. They won the 2 World Championships in his first 5 years and nothing in the last 4 years. He missed the playoffs in 3 of the last 6 years. Theo's final chapter hasn't been written. A lot will have to do with whether Carl Crawford and john Lackey cripple this team going forward and how well Theo's last three draft classes progress. I don't see that his legacy could ever be one of failure, but his legacy is far from complete.[/quote']

 

The last four seasons were not Epstein's finest hours and this y ear was a complete debacle. You're right in asserting that Crawford and Lackey's future performances will be a determining factor in assessing Theo's overall contribution to the RedSox, but it is clear to me that Lackey has pretty much been a bust and a real thorn in the clubhouse. Carl must revert to the player he was in Tampa Bay. If he does the team's prospects will brighten considerably. If not, we're stuck with a real lemon.

[win red sox]

Youkilis and Ranaudo for Gio? That sounds like a significant overpay to me. Youkilis is a legitimate cleanup hitter on a major market team. Gio is a young but inconsistent SP. Not that deal please.

 

In fact there are other pitchers on Oakland I would probably look at first, either as buy low candidates or as more consistent options.

 

The Sox need to overhaul there pitching staff and at this point I don't think free agency is the route to go. Right now they have 2 spots open and a potential third with the whole Beckett fiasco. The Sox are going to have give up some offense to resolve these issues. Youkilis does have trade value, even though hes broken down the last 2 years. Youkilis cannot hold up at 3rd base, so now your looking at DH. Who's bat would you rather have Ortiz or Youkilis? Ortiz is a free agent which obviously has no trade value. There are few positional players on the Sox that have high trade value and I would imagine that Youkilis and Ellsbury would bring in 2-3 top of the end rotation pitchers.

[FredLynn]

Anyone think it would be worth giving Oakland a call to kick the tyres on Gio Gonzalez? They desperately need some offense and maybe we could work out some sort of deal.

 

Again, my area. I live out here, near the A's. The price for Gio would be very hefty. They love him, as well they should. Beane is no fool.

[Cairns_Sox]

Youkilis and Ranaudo for Gio? That sounds like a significant overpay to me. Youkilis is a legitimate cleanup hitter on a major market team. Gio is a young but inconsistent SP. Not that deal please.

 

In fact there are other pitchers on Oakland I would probably look at first, either as buy low candidates or as more consistent options.

 

Care to ellaborate? Anderson, Cahill, or McCarthy.

 

Again' date=' my area. I live out here, near the A's. The price for Gio would be very hefty. They love him, as well they should. Beane is no fool.[/quote']

 

But they are probably going to lose alot of offense to FA. There pitching rotation is great and They may have to shop him to get bats. Has he got 2 years remaining?

 

P.s - what's it like in Oakland? Hoping to visit Boston, Chicago and Oakland next year some time.

[soxfan74]

Plenty of guys have been traded since then too. That depletes a system quickly too. Masterful and Hagadone would look pretty good for this club right now.

 

This one really aggravated me at the time. I know we got the picks for letting Victor walk. We really could have used those guys this season. One of those deals at the time that everyone wanted. Way overpaid for a little over a year of V-mart.

[example1]

Care to ellaborate? Anderson' date=' Cahill, or McCarthy.[/quote']

 

I like a healthy Anderson more, but realize he's unlikely too. There is just something that makes me nervous re: Gio.

 

McCarty could be an interesting option. Coming off a good season he seems like the type of player Beane would try to swing for prospects. He should cost less than Gio in current talent.

[a700hitter]

He also added the pieces from the Garciaparra trade. In fact' date=' if you factor in Millar's walk (Theo player), Roberts' stolen base (Theo player), Mueller's single (Theo Player), Ortiz's home run (Theo player), Schilling's bloody-sock (Theo player), the bullpen's clutchness (Theo players all, minus Embree), I would say the Sox absolutely dont win 2004 without Theo's influence. There can be no doubt about that.[/quote']Similarly, they don't win without the foundation laid by Duquette. My point is that Theo cannot claim full credit for 2004, not that he can't claim full credit. People tend to give him full credit for 2004, and that is undeserved.

[Cairns_Sox]

I like a healthy Anderson more, but realize he's unlikely too. There is just something that makes me nervous re: Gio.

 

McCarty could be an interesting option. Coming off a good season he seems like the type of player Beane would try to swing for prospects. He should cost less than Gio in current talent.

 

Agree on Anderson, love to have him but I think it would be easier getting Gio. If he was available for the right deal I'd take him in a heartbeat, I accept he is young but IMO has alot of upside.

 

McCarthy is someone we should look at IMO. Cheap and effective. Either a 5th starter or outta the pen.

[example1]

Similarly' date=' they don't win without the foundation laid by Duquette. My point is that Theo cannot claim full credit for 2004, not that he can't claim full credit. People tend to give him full credit for 2004, and that is undeserved.[/quote']

 

It would be interesting to know which GMs ever deserve full credit for WS won on their watch. Which ones have been around long enough to either have drafted, signed or traded for every player on the roster.

[example1]

Brian Sabean from SF might get that credit. Seems rare for recent WS winners though.

[a700hitter]

It would be interesting to know which GMs ever deserve full credit for WS won on their watch. Which ones have been around long enough to either have drafted' date=' signed or traded for every player on the roster.[/quote']Theo gets full credit for 2007. He had 5 years under his belt. It was his team.

 

If the 2011 Series is Cards vs. Rangers, both teams have had their GMs in place for 5 or 6 seasons. The Giants GM was in place for 5 seasons when they won. Cashman gets full credit for their 2009 Championship. He also gets signifcant credit for 1998, 1999 and 2000, because he was playing a significant role in the Yankees organization for many years prior to being named GM. Cherington will get credit/blame right off the bat in 2012, because he is not new to the organization. As Theo's assistant, he was an integral part of the FO in the last few seasons.

 

In 2006 when the Cards won, Walt Jockety gets full credit. Kenny Williams was in place for 5 seasons when the ChiSox won in 2005.

[FredLynn]

Care to ellaborate? Anderson, Cahill, or McCarthy.

 

 

 

But they are probably going to lose alot of offense to FA. There pitching rotation is great and They may have to shop him to get bats. Has he got 2 years remaining?

 

P.s - what's it like in Oakland? Hoping to visit Boston, Chicago and Oakland next year some time.

 

If you make it up here make sure and give me a ring. I will give you my phone number via PM....as long as I can call you if I make it to Australia. I am a scuba divemaster and would love to dive out there.

Anyway, back to baseball: here is a good link to look up baseball contracts by team:

 

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html

 

Looks like Gio Gonzalez is signed for one year, but has less than a year and a half of ML service. I am not sure how many more years he would be either under team control or arbitration eligible. I will leave that to the stat people here.

[example1]

Theo gets full credit for 2007. He had 5 years under his belt. It was his team.

 

If the 2011 Series is Cards vs. Rangers, both teams have had their GMs in place for 5 or 6 seasons. The Giants GM was in place for 5 seasons when they won. Cashman gets full credit for their 2009 Championship. He also gets signifcant credit for 1998, 1999 and 2000, because he was playing a significant role in the Yankees organization for many years prior to being named GM. Cherington will get credit/blame right off the bat in 2012, because he is not new to the organization. As Theo's assistant, he was an integral part of the FO in the last few seasons.

 

In 2006 when the Cards won, Walt Jockety gets full credit. Kenny Williams was in place for 5 seasons when the ChiSox won in 2005.

 

I thought by full credit you meant actually having drafted, traded for or signed every player. Not just time in service. Thanks for clarifying.

[example1]

If you make it up here make sure and give me a ring. I will give you my phone number via PM....as long as I can call you if I make it to Australia. I am a scuba divemaster and would love to dive out there.

Anyway, back to baseball: here is a good link to look up baseball contracts by team:

 

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html

 

Looks like Gio Gonzalez is signed for one year, but has less than a year and a half of ML service. I am not sure how many more years he would be either under team control or arbitration eligible. I will leave that to the stat people here.

 

I think he is about to go to arbitration. He should have three years of it with Oakland.

[a700hitter]

I thought by full credit you meant actually having drafted' date=' traded for or signed every player. Not just time in service. Thanks for clarifying.[/quote']After 5 years, a GM has probably signed or renewed the contract for everyone on the team, except in rare instances.

[ipot]

If you agree that his legacy couldn't be one of failure, then you agree with me. I said you could argue that he's been mediocre, but you can't argue that it has been a failure. The rest of what you say is immaterial to my post.

 

That said, he added essential pieces to make that initial 2004 core one that could win the WS. It wasn't like he was handed the 2004 club.

 

*Theo landed 5 of the top 9 most valuable pitchers for that club

--including 2 of the top 3 SPs (Schilling and Arroyo) and

--essentially the entire bullpen, including Keith Foulke (but minus Alan Embree).

 

He also added the pieces from the Garciaparra trade. In fact, if you factor in Millar's walk (Theo player), Roberts' stolen base (Theo player), Mueller's single (Theo Player), Ortiz's home run (Theo player), Schilling's bloody-sock (Theo player), the bullpen's clutchness (Theo players all, minus Embree), I would say the Sox absolutely dont win 2004 without Theo's influence. There can be no doubt about that.

 

It's a tough call. All those players in that 3 step chain of events in the 9th inning of game 4 in 2004 were Theo signings. But, any 1 of them could have gone the other way - Millar doesn't walk, Roberts never gets to steal, Mueller doesn't get a hit. The odds were all a game of chance, imho.

 

It's like saying Wakefield didn't give up the HR to Boone in 2003 and Duquette could look like genius. Or Pedro got through the 7th inning. Ditto.

[seabeachfred]

Theo gets full credit for 2007. He had 5 years under his belt. It was his team.

 

If the 2011 Series is Cards vs. Rangers, both teams have had their GMs in place for 5 or 6 seasons. The Giants GM was in place for 5 seasons when they won. Cashman gets full credit for their 2009 Championship. He also gets signifcant credit for 1998, 1999 and 2000, because he was playing a significant role in the Yankees organization for many years prior to being named GM. Cherington will get credit/blame right off the bat in 2012, because he is not new to the organization. As Theo's assistant, he was an integral part of the FO in the last few seasons.

 

In 2006 when the Cards won, Walt Jockety gets full credit. Kenny Williams was in place for 5 seasons when the ChiSox won in 2005.

 

I enjoy reading your posts 700 but to say Theo gets full credit for 2007 is really bogus if you look carefully at it. Remember the gorilla suit episode late in 2005? It was during that hiatus that the trade for Beckett and Lowell was made. Theo came back later in December and publicly said he would NOT have made that trade. No trade, no 2007 Title because we couldn't have won it without the contributions of Beckett and Lowell. Josh was 20-7 that season, the only 20 game winner in the Majors that year, and he went 4-0 in the post-season. He was a horse that fall. Lowell went 324-21-120 and was WS MVP.

 

Theo gets a lot of credit for Pedroia, Ellsbury, Papelbon and others, but without those two in the trade it all goes for naught that year.

[a700hitter]

I enjoy reading your posts 700 but to say Theo gets full credit for 2007 is really bogus if you look carefully at it. Remember the gorilla suit episode late in 2005? It was during that hiatus that the trade for Beckett and Lowell was made. Theo came back later in December and publicly said he would NOT have made that trade. No trade, no 2007 Title because we couldn't have won it without the contributions of Beckett and Lowell. Josh was 20-7 that season, the only 20 game winner in the Majors that year, and he went 4-0 in the post-season. He was a horse that fall. Lowell went 324-21-120 and was WS MVP.

 

Theo gets a lot of credit for Pedroia, Ellsbury, Papelbon and others, but without those two in the trade it all goes for naught that year.

You make a good point.

[seabeachfred]

You make a good point.

 

700---On his resume Epstein is going to be the one listed as the GM on those 2004 and 2007 Red Sox teams that won the World Series those years, so I could be accused of splitting hairs on that trade I mentioned. To be fair, though, I am aware that on the 2004 team while Theo's trades for Roberts, Menkiewitz (sic), Cabrera, and his signings of Ortiz, Millar, Mueller and Arroyo were significant in that title, we should also give some credit to Douquette because he signed Ramirez, Damon, drafted Nixon and traded for Varitek so there is credit to be handed out on all fronts. My complaint with Epstein is that his FA signings the past few years have been horrible, and even though the drafts have been lauded there is a disconnect there as well as we seemed to be focusing on LH hitting outfielders and maybe not enough young pitching prospects. Right now we have Renaudo as a potential rotation man in a year or two, but Doubrant, Weiland, Britton and others have taken giant steps backwards and the way I see it we either are going to have to trade for an established starter or go through the FA market again, only this time with better luck.

Even if Josh, Jon and Clay come back real strong next season, there is still a void at the back of the rotation. I think we can sneak by with some different No. 5 men not named Wakefield, but a #4 is absolutely necessary if we want to be playing into deep October next year or anytime soon.

[example1]

I wouldn't dismiss Matt Barnes as a SP option in a year or two.

[seabeachfred]

I wouldn't dismiss Matt Barnes as a SP option in a year or two.

 

If you're referring to me X1, I dismiss no young pitcher on the Rays. My point was to show how paltry our young pitching prospects are. It seems when they get to Double or Triple A they seem to go backwards. Look at Michael Bowden. Three years ago Peter Gammons was calling him the best pitching prospect in the minor leagues and now he is hardly worth a can of beans in a trade. We have to do a much better job of developing pitchers than we've done the past few years. After Papelbon and Lester we seemed to have hit a wall in the development and advancement department, though I should add Bard to that small list of pitchers who have made themselves valuable to the Red Sox.

[FredLynn]

I wouldn't dismiss Matt Barnes as a SP option in a year or two.

 

Wasn't he just drafted? I think he is more than a year or two away. Even after they are developed, the Sox don't immediately allow their young SP to pitch many innings. I remember that they have some sort of formula for how many innings a young pitcher can increase his workload by every year...its pretty slow. Three years seems more reasonable to me, if he makes it.

[example1]

If you're referring to me X1' date=' I dismiss no young pitcher on the Rays. My point was to show how paltry our young pitching prospects are. It seems when they get to Double or Triple A they seem to go backwards. Look at Michael Bowden. Three years ago Peter Gammons was calling him the best pitching prospect in the minor leagues and now he is hardly worth a can of beans in a trade. We have to do a much better job of developing pitchers than we've done the past few years. After Papelbon and Lester we seemed to have hit a wall in the development and advancement department, though I should add Bard to that small list of pitchers who have made themselves valuable to the Red Sox.[/quote']

 

No young pitcher on the Rays? Huh?

[example1]

Wasn't he just drafted? I think he is more than a year or two away. Even after they are developed' date=' the Sox don't immediately allow their young SP to pitch many innings. I remember that they have some sort of formula for how many innings a young pitcher can increase his workload by every year...its pretty slow. Three years seems more reasonable to me, if he makes it.[/quote']

 

He is probably closer to 3 years, you are right. He's a but less than a year younger than Ranaudo.

[jung]

I wonder what formula the Rangers use to bring their young pitchers along. While I doubt it would be the complete rejection of pitch count that Ryan uses at the highest level I would also be willing to bet that it is some form of "the best way to get adapted to pitching deep into games is to pitch deep into games". Whatever it is, some form of what the Rangers do would sure seem to be worth at least looking into.

 

While the Rangers are a hitting machine it is hard not to admire their pitching.

[Elktonnick]

If you're referring to me X1' date=' I dismiss no young pitcher on the Rays. My point was to show how paltry our young pitching prospects are. It seems when they get to Double or Triple A they seem to go backwards. Look at Michael Bowden. Three years ago Peter Gammons was calling him the best pitching prospect in the minor leagues and now he is hardly worth a can of beans in a trade. We have to do a much better job of developing pitchers than we've done the past few years. After Papelbon and Lester we seemed to have hit a wall in the development and advancement department, though I should add Bard to that small list of pitchers who have made themselves valuable to the Red Sox.[/quote']

 

I could never understand the hype on Bowden. From behind it looks like he gives the hitter a good long look at his pitch. I think Orel Hershiser commented on that in one of the national broadcasts.

[FredLynn]

I wonder what formula the Rangers use to bring their young pitchers along. While I doubt it would be the complete rejection of pitch count that Ryan uses at the highest level I would also be willing to bet that it is some form of "the best way to get adapted to pitching deep into games is to pitch deep into games". Whatever it is, some form of what the Rangers do would sure seem to be worth at least looking into.

 

While the Rangers are a hitting machine it is hard not to admire their pitching.

 

I read that if Sabathia opts out (and why wouldn't he?), the Rangers are going after him. Hard not to admire what Ryan has done with that team. I was cheering for the Tigers because they eliminated the Yankees though

[FredLynn]

I could never understand the hype on Bowden. From behind it looks like he gives the hitter a good long look at his pitch. I think Orel Hershiser commented on that in one of the national broadcasts.

 

Michael Bowden was a first round draft pick of Theo Epstein.

[example1]

Michael Bowden was a first round draft pick of Theo Epstein.

 

Wow, your 20/20 hindsight is phenomenal!

 

Can we critique Theo? Yes

Should we want better moving forward? Sure

Should we pretend that we never liked having him here? f*** no

 

It comes off like the boyfriend who got dumped saying "I never liked her anyway". It's pathetic.

 

I'll take my comments off the air...