2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[example1]

Ryan Kalish gets no love. He's one of the Sox best prospects.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11469235

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11936405

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=12500479

 

Ryan Lavarnway gets no love either. Even if he's just a DH, he will be a cheap, legitimate power-threat next year from the right side.

 

Iglesias is 21 and at AAA. It doesn't need to be repeated (but apparently it does), his glove would be among the best in the majors right now, at the position where that matters most. Most scouting reports say that his bat should be able to catch up. He's 5-6 years away from his prime. He could have an impact next year at SS.

 

I'm afraid the common narrative on this site lately is:

 

1) The sky is falling.

2) This team isn't just bad, they completely broken. Probably worse than the Blue Jays.

3) The player development program won't produce anything for at least 3-4 years

 

I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses when I say that none of the above is true. The 2012 Sox will be picked by many to win the Wild Card and nobody will be shocked if they win the division. Stop with the chicken-little s***, jesus.

[Palodios]

Ryan Kalish gets no love. He's one of the Sox best prospects.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11469235

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11936405

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=12500479

 

Ryan Lavarnway gets no love either. Even if he's just a DH, he will be a cheap, legitimate power-threat next year from the right side.

 

Iglesias is 21 and at AAA. It doesn't need to be repeated (but apparently it does), his glove would be among the best in the majors right now, at the position where that matters most. Most scouting reports say that his bat should be able to catch up. He's 5-6 years away from his prime. He could have an impact next year at SS.

 

I'm afraid the common narrative on this site lately is:

 

1) The sky is falling.

2) This team isn't just bad, they completely broken. Probably worse than the Blue Jays.

3) The player development program won't produce anything for at least 3-4 years

 

I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses when I say that none of the above is true. The 2012 Sox will be picked by many to win the Wild Card and nobody will be shocked if they win the division. Stop with the chicken-little s***, jesus.

 

You've been churning out excellent post after excellent post lately.

[example1]

You've been churning out excellent post after excellent post lately.

 

The offseason is the best time to discuss baseball, IMO.

 

That said, I feel like I'm on a freaking island these days. I miss a lot of the old optimists who don't really post here anymore.

[SCM33]

The offseason is the best time to discuss baseball, IMO.

 

That said, I feel like I'm on a freaking island these days. I miss a lot of the old optimists who don't really post here anymore.

 

I can be very optimistic, I dont consider myself pessimistic.....I consider myself objective. I react to what I see, not what the front office wants me to see.

 

I have no problem with Lavarnaway getting AB's. Kalish, I am more comfy with him being a 4th option at this point. Iglesias, while he might have a HOF glove, cant even hit his weight.

[Cairns_Sox]

In my opinion guys like Kalish, Lav and Iglesias are all project guys. Guys that still need to be blooded into the big leagues. I'm all for promoting the farm but 2 years with no post season, I think the objective next year is to win. I dont believe those 3 guys can offer anything outstanding, otherwise they would have by now.

[Palodios]

The offseason is the best time to discuss baseball, IMO.

 

That said, I feel like I'm on a freaking island these days. I miss a lot of the old optimists who don't really post here anymore.

 

Nah, you're not alone by any means. It has just been one of those seasons where there is significantly more to complain about than to be positive about. At some point, everyone will look at the trades/deals that this team makes in the offseason, realize that this team is still stacked, and start to look forward to the next year.

[example1]

I can be very optimistic, I dont consider myself pessimistic.....I consider myself objective. I react to what I see, not what the front office wants me to see.

 

I have no problem with Lavarnaway getting AB's. Kalish, I am more comfy with him being a 4th option at this point. Iglesias, while he might have a HOF glove, cant even hit his weight.

 

I'm going to try to take this as an honest comment, not a veiled charge that I only see the team the way the FO wants me to see them.

 

I don't think it is absurd to think that there is talent intheir system or that the talent will manifest iteslf in the next year on the MLB level a bit. Plenty of people see the specific players you noted above as MLB caliber contributers.

 

I think the thing that goes unsaid is just how skeptical everyone was about Pedroia and Ellsbury when they came up. There was a lot of the same criticism and skepticism. Some players in the minors are better than most of their peers, and those guys tend to do well at the MLB level, even if they take a year or two to mature.

 

Anyway, I do see you as a realist and as objective as possible. Wasn't referring to you.

[iortiz]

I can be very optimistic' date=' I dont consider myself pessimistic.....[b']I consider myself objective. I react to what I see, not what the front office wants me to see.[/b]

 

1000000% Agree.

 

Sorry, but after this disaster and tendency of failures, I really don't understand why people are still defending players, coaches and administrative people that clearly have been hurting this team. I really don't understand.

 

It's great to be optimistic, but another is to be blinded by cheap RS marketing.

 

Just like SCM said, this team needs to sweep the house from the top to the bottom. It's time that some take and assume accountability and the most important, accept consequences.

[a700hitter]

The offseason is the best time to discuss baseball, IMO.

 

That said, I feel like I'm on a freaking island these days. I miss a lot of the old optimists who don't really post here anymore.

You are on an island because you think Theo has done a good job and that he is not part of the problem. The majority fo the people feel differently. Every poll in every paper puts Theo at the top of the list of causes for the 2011 collapse. if the owners give him the right to talk to the Cubs, they obviously would think he is expendable. You are looking for bogeymen and scapegoats. The truth is that the team wasn't good enough, and Theo is responsible for putting together the team.

[example1]

You are on an island because you think Theo has done a good job and that he is not part of the problem. The majority fo the people feel differently. Every poll in every paper puts Theo at the top of the list of causes for the 2011 collapse. if the owners give him the right to talk to the Cubs' date=' they obviously would think he is expendable. You are looking for bogeymen and scapegoats. The truth is that the team wasn't good enough, and Theo is responsible for putting together the team.[/quote']

 

That's laughable a700. Read over my posts. Read them. I've said every time that he's accountable for a portion of this. Just because I prefer to use a scalpel instead of an axe to fix the problem doesn't mean I don't hold him accountable. As with most complicated things in life, I'm not willing to boil it down to "the team didn't win so he should be gone". That misses a lot in my opinion. I wouldn't judge a stock solely on whether it got better in the past year or not, I would look at the internal components of the stock, the moves the organization has made to better itself, the projections about that stock moving forward, the market the stock is in, etc.,

 

You can play that parallel out as much as you want to, and get into the detail of the current team, how things project movin forward, the rest of the league, etc., but as soon as you do that you've moved on from your "results only" approach, which is what I find most frustrating about discussing this wit you.

 

I've said numerous times that there have been mistakes. It doesn't take a genius to list them. That's the easy part. What I've also said (and which you read more than anything else I say) is that Theo brings positives to his position too. Every GM is going to have pluses and minuses. I think Theo's unique set of skills suits him well to his current position. Hell, he's had the 2nd most wins during his tenure of any team and made the playoffs more than all teams except one (the only team that has spent more). He's won more WS than any other team during that time. In terms of expectations vs. accomplishment, I'd say he's done pretty well. Yeah, it cost them a bunch of money, but of all people on this board you were the one demanding that they spend that money rather than finding cost effective players.

 

Understandably, you and a few others are ready to move on since they haven't won a playoff game since 2009. I understand that and accept it. That's fine. We just differ there. I would like to see the 2012 team play the way the 2011 team should have, with some refinement based on what we know were some substantial flaws. I think that club could win it all and I don't think you need to replace the Gm to do it. In the meantime, I think having a young GM who is the envy of much of the rest of the league is not something to be taken lightly. He will be wanted by other teams. They are hiring away his assistants pretty consistently.

 

So, I explain all of that, and you take it to be an exoneration of Theo. Which it isn't. It's just offering the other side or a discussion that is more nuanced than you are comfortable with.

 

We can agree that accountability spans all areas of the team. The manager is gone now. There will be someone else at the head of the ship next year.

[iortiz]

That's laughable a700. Read over my posts. Read them. I've said every time that he's accountable for a portion of this. Just because I prefer to use a scalpel instead of an axe to fix the problem doesn't mean I don't hold him accountable. As with most complicated things in life, I'm not willing to boil it down to "the team didn't win so he should be gone". That misses a lot in my opinion. I wouldn't judge a stock solely on whether it got better in the past year or not, I would look at the internal components of the stock, the moves the organization has made to better itself, the projections about that stock moving forward, the market the stock is in, etc.,

 

You can play that parallel out as much as you want to, and get into the detail of the current team, how things project movin forward, the rest of the league, etc., but as soon as you do that you've moved on from your "results only" approach, which is what I find most frustrating about discussing this wit you.

 

I've said numerous times that there have been mistakes. It doesn't take a genius to list them. That's the easy part. What I've also said (and which you read more than anything else I say) is that Theo brings positives to his position too. Every GM is going to have pluses and minuses. I think Theo's unique set of skills suits him well to his current position. Hell, he's had the 2nd most wins during his tenure of any team and made the playoffs more than all teams except one (the only team that has spent more). He's won more WS than any other team during that time. In terms of expectations vs. accomplishment, I'd say he's done pretty well. Yeah, it cost them a bunch of money, but of all people on this board you were the one demanding that they spend that money rather than finding cost effective players.

 

Understandably, you and a few others are ready to move on since they haven't won a playoff game since 2009. I understand that and accept it. That's fine. We just differ there. I would like to see the 2012 team play the way the 2011 team should have, with some refinement based on what we know were some substantial flaws. I think that club could win it all and I don't think you need to replace the Gm to do it. In the meantime, I think having a young GM who is the envy of much of the rest of the league is not something to be taken lightly. He will be wanted by other teams. They are hiring away his assistants pretty consistently.

 

So, I explain all of that, and you take it to be an exoneration of Theo. Which it isn't. It's just offering the other side or a discussion that is more nuanced than you are comfortable with.

 

We can agree that accountability spans all areas of the team. The manager is gone now. There will be someone else at the head of the ship next year.

 

That's the problem. You need to understand that a GM/CEO/Main Director or whatever you wanna call a head of an organization doesn't take a portion of accountability when things go good or bad, but full of it. That's how organizations work. GMs assume full consequences of their decisions. This is not a matter of "Good Intentions" but results. His good or bad KPIs are measured and supported by results, not by "Good Intentions". This is how business run. I know that you don't like the "result" approach, but this is how business and life works, and you have to realize that.

 

It's worthless talk about accountability without talk about consequences. He had the opportunity to right the ship the last three years with PLENTY access to money. He couldn't. When the gap between a business plan and a expected result can't meet each other over and over and over again, you have to look and pursuit other directions.

 

We'll be fine E1. Don't worry about who could come. A lot of young talented professionals with great management skills are out there.

[wyo-sox]

Ryan Kalish gets no love. He's one of the Sox best prospects.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11469235

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11936405

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=12500479

 

Ryan Lavarnway gets no love either. Even if he's just a DH, he will be a cheap, legitimate power-threat next year from the right side.

 

Iglesias is 21 and at AAA. It doesn't need to be repeated (but apparently it does), his glove would be among the best in the majors right now, at the position where that matters most. Most scouting reports say that his bat should be able to catch up. He's 5-6 years away from his prime. He could have an impact next year at SS.

 

I'm afraid the common narrative on this site lately is:

 

1) The sky is falling.

2) This team isn't just bad, they completely broken. Probably worse than the Blue Jays.

3) The player development program won't produce anything for at least 3-4 years

 

I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses when I say that none of the above is true. The 2012 Sox will be picked by many to win the Wild Card and nobody will be shocked if they win the division. Stop with the chicken-little s***, jesus.

 

Well said! Bottem line- we had a terrible four week stretch. I did not hear anyone on here panicking about player development, the clubhouse, the lineup, etc..... that tells me most of this is a reaction to one bad stretch. Maybe not a reflection of the overall team?

 

We still have Pedroia, Ells, Gonzo. Odds are Crawford will have a better year. I think Scutaro proved he has heart to allow him to

play beyond his skill. Salty proved better then we thought and Lavarnway showed he could help / compete for catcher. Beckett, Lester, Buckholz, a solid 1-3. This is a good team. They allowed themselves to get bitch slapped- now we will see how they react. And there is a chance we get a great manager.

[Dojji]

In my opinion guys like Kalish' date=' Lav and Iglesias are all project guys. Guys that still need to be blooded into the big leagues. I'm all for promoting the farm but 2 years with no post season, I think the objective next year is to win. I dont believe those 3 guys can offer anything outstanding, otherwise they would have by now.[/quote']

 

That's a nice catch-22 you've got going there. Besides, it's completely untrue in at least Lavarnway's case, as he did provide a breath of fresh air in the last couple games of the season -- not to mention that Lavs established a certain level of skill as a catcher in those last couple games when everyone else was falling apart and choking.

 

I wouldn't call it predictive or anything, since it was September and September stats mean nothing, but I thought it was important that he could come into a stressful situation like that last couple games, and show his skill on both sides of the ball and do everything he could have reasonably been expected to do to win the ballgame.

 

As for Kalish and Iglesias, I'm a bit less sold on them, but I think it's time to inject some youth and hunger into this clubhoise, which had gone pretty stale as the Pedroia generation started to mature and atrophy a little. I don't see what it'd hurt to have those two players on the team, and it might be huge for the organization to have some youthful energy out there.

[SCM33]

I'm going to try to take this as an honest comment' date=' not a veiled charge that I only see the team the way the FO wants me to see them. [/quote']

 

Oh no, Im sorry man.....that was not to be an insult, I was actually just speaking for myself. It was not intended to compare myself or make suggestions about yourself.

 

I am sorry if it came across that way.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Ryan Kalish gets no love. He's one of the Sox best prospects.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11469235

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11936405

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=12500479

 

Ryan Lavarnway gets no love either. Even if he's just a DH, he will be a cheap, legitimate power-threat next year from the right side.

 

Iglesias is 21 and at AAA. It doesn't need to be repeated (but apparently it does), his glove would be among the best in the majors right now, at the position where that matters most. Most scouting reports say that his bat should be able to catch up. He's 5-6 years away from his prime. He could have an impact next year at SS.

 

I'm afraid the common narrative on this site lately is:

 

1) The sky is falling.

2) This team isn't just bad, they completely broken. Probably worse than the Blue Jays.

3) The player development program won't produce anything for at least 3-4 years

 

I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses when I say that none of the above is true. The 2012 Sox will be picked by many to win the Wild Card and nobody will be shocked if they win the division. Stop with the chicken-little s***, jesus.

 

AMEN!

 

Seriously, though. What's the difference between the team that we have right now, and the team that was picked by 46 ESPN experts to win the WS in 2011?

 

Answer? JD Drew. That's it. So how the hell is this team in such shambles? We need a #3 starter right now, and then some SP depth, and that's basically it. On top of that, would it really surprise anyone if Bard was stretched out and put into the rotation this season?

 

Rotation:

Lester

Beckett

Buchholz

Bard

Lackey

 

Depth:

Doubront

Weiland

________

________

________

 

Lineup:

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Crawford

Lavarnway/Salty

Scutaro

Kalish

 

Go re-sign Papelbon. Make Aceves your 8th inning guy. Get Bobby Jenks, John Lackey, and Carl Crawford back on track (or trade Lackey for Bay, and trade for someone like Danks to be your 5th SP).

 

This team is extremely well put together right now. This isn't the Oakland A's were talking about. That line up right there, that will put up the most runs in the MLB again next year.

 

Tack on an extra quality starter to that rotation, and all of a sudden it's a WS contender, again.

 

It's a hell of a lot easier to find a 7th inning pitcher than a SP for cheap who would be at Bard's caliber, too.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Understandably' date=' you and a few others are ready to move on since they haven't won a playoff game since 2009.[/b'] I understand that and accept it. That's fine. We just differ there. I would like to see the 2012 team play the way the 2011 team should have, with some refinement based on what we know were some substantial flaws. I think that club could win it all and I don't think you need to replace the Gm to do it. In the meantime, I think having a young GM who is the envy of much of the rest of the league is not something to be taken lightly. He will be wanted by other teams. They are hiring away his assistants pretty consistently.

 

So, I explain all of that, and you take it to be an exoneration of Theo. Which it isn't. It's just offering the other side or a discussion that is more nuanced than you are comfortable with.

 

We can agree that accountability spans all areas of the team. The manager is gone now. There will be someone else at the head of the ship next year.

 

It pains me enormously to say this, but they didn't even win one in 2009. They haven't won a playoff game since 2008. :thumbdown

[jung]

Those that are suggesting that Theo should be held accountable in all respects because the person at the top of any organization is accountable for the organization in its entirety are right about their view of the person at the top. Where they are wrong is that Theo is not at the top.

 

I may be alone in this opinion but I believe that the people above Theo not only empowered him to make personnel moves for this team but provided a benchmark that is not what we as fans assume it to be. We think winning is the benchmark. I don't think that has been the benchmark over at Fenway for a long time now. The benchmark in my view has been putting fannies in seats and increasing revenue streams for the other available sources of revenue. To the extent that the goal of winning was also satisfied that was fine but the first and foremost goal was revenue generation including fannies in seats.

 

How does that differ from making winning the primary goal? For one thing I think it explains why the Sox stopped looking for FA signings that filled a specific need and instead continually tried to sign the most high profile FA available.

 

If winning was the primary goal you would think that they would have reserved funds for FA starting pitching. However the last starting pitcher that they spent big bucks on was Lackey who they made the highest paid pitcher on the team. However if you look at what Lackey was the day we signed him it is hard to believe that was a move worth making. Got a lotta' PR but was a hell of a gamble if you were looking for results on the mound. As of 2009, John Lackey was a control pitcher whose best pitch was a slider. He already at that point had a 88-92 mph fastball and that was it. He had not pitched through complete seasons in the preceding two seasons before the RS signed him. I can remember people at the time talking about that being the point that really made the Lackey signing a gamble. I think it was a gamble as much for the fact that you are bringing a guy with a middling fastball into the toughest hitting division in baseball, a guy that will only survive if he can keep the ball down and would only prosper over here if he was extremely precise even while keeping it down in the zone.

 

Lackey has declined appreciably since being here, the most telling stat of all being swinging strikes which has fallen off a cliff. He no longer misses bats. However my point is that while Lackey made for good PR, based on pure potential as a pitcher he was one hell of a gamble. The other recent pitcher signing was.....dice.....you mean to tell me that we had to go to Japan for a starter. We had to spend $60M just to have the opportunity to sign him. How much of the decision to sign dice was glitz and PR instead of pure baseball? At least when we brought Beckett here he still had a heater and and when we brought Schill here he had already made the transition to being a complete pitcher. Schill could still get two strikes on you and throw a fastball that started at the belt and ended in your eyes. The difference was he no longer had to do that to get you out.

 

The everyday player FA signings that they have made have regularly been the top guy, the most coveted guy at a particular position in that FA season. Then to top it off, the cherry on the whip cream, we sign Crawford out of the blue for a stunning amount of money. We sign Crawford for so much money that I think we believe that they no longer have much FA flexibility over there on Yawkey Way. They probably don't but not because they are going broke but because they do not want to risk their bottom line.

 

So I agree, the guy or guys at the top bear the full brunt of accountability. Just remember that Theo is not the only guy in that crowded little row boat. Although I doubt we will see much honesty in that regard, not after seeing Larry L, Mr. "I was perplexed by Tito's comment that he did not feel as supported by ownership as he has in the past...we did not do anything differently this year". What a load of ******** that was.

[a700hitter]

Those that are suggesting that Theo should be held accountable in all respects because the person at the top of any organization is accountable for the organization in its entirety are right about their view of the person at the top. Where they are wrong is that Theo is not at the top.

True Lucchino could also be on thin ice, but the next level up is ownership, and they don't get fired.

[soxfan17881]

This is the first post season in a long time that I have no clue what to hope happens.

[jung]

True Lucchino could also be on thin ice, but the next level up is ownership, and they don't get fired.

 

While ownership won't fire itself it might realize that they are running around with their pants down around their ankles. The emperor truly has no cloths. The Tony Masserotti piece from the Globe that somebody posted into a different thread is pretty much on the mark. It basically says winning has not been the priority for ownership for a long time and it is that perspective that ultimately poisoned the entire team from top to bottom. Even here where Sox fans have endured all sorts of garbage they might be hard pressed to buy those $50.00 tickets and $75.00 game shirts for a team that has become this much of an embarrassment.

 

So ownership has basically gotten what it has wanted up to this point. However their own wretched excess, the execution of this brand marketing based plan to the fullest has truly blown up on them and you get things like your players under suspicion of dogging it including drinking during ballgames making that stupid "we love bear" tape. That would have been dismissed out of hand had it not happened right after the worst collapse in baseball history and after the press had just reported the drinking incident. Talk about thumbing their noses at all of us. Why didn't they just come out and tell us they think we are just a bunch of dumb asses for cheering for them, for pinning our hopes on them for thinking that they of all people would take winning seriously. WOW!

 

Funny, the Sox ownership/management might have pulled it off and escaped the full burden of their culpability if they had exercised Tito's option when they should have. Considering all the other money they have spent going down this road, the cost of one year of Tito's option would have been short money. At the end of the day the only thing that might have been holding the tattered shreds of a "team" together might have been Tito even with all of his shortcomings. As it turns out when they pulled the rug out from under him there was nothing left holding it together. In what fantasy world were pampered babies with long term guaranteed contracts in hand going to listen to a guy that the FO would not even extend for one year? I guess if a guy like Lying Dog Larry can get up in front of the entire Boston media, in effect all of us and say with a straight face "I was perplexed" by Tito's comment regarding support from ownership since "we had not done anything differently this year" I guess that same guy can convince himself that the players did not know or care that Tito had not been extended at the beginning of this year when he should have been.

 

I think it is a mistake to think that what happened here should be dismissed as just a September collapse. Ultimately something happens over the course of a 162 game season that forces your "true colors" as Tito said to the surface. When that happened we saw what this "team" really was made of and that turned out to be something very ugly indeed.

 

So as has been said already. things like getting Crawford going and figuring out what to do with Lackey must be accomplished in the off season. Crawford becomes something of a sympathetic figure in all of this. Imagine coming into this mess, not knowing what the hell to make of it. No wonder he looked like he had been run over by a bus that last day at the top of the dugout steps.

 

However this mess of a management team and its willingness to put winning so far down on the totem pole that in retrospect it seems like an afterthought must also be fixed.

[iortiz]

Those that are suggesting that Theo should be held accountable in all respects because the person at the top of any organization is accountable for the organization in its entirety are right about their view of the person at the top. Where they are wrong is that Theo is not at the top.

 

I may be alone in this opinion but I believe that the people above Theo not only empowered him to make personnel moves for this team but provided a benchmark that is not what we as fans assume it to be. We think winning is the benchmark. I don't think that has been the benchmark over at Fenway for a long time now. The benchmark in my view has been putting fannies in seats and increasing revenue streams for the other available sources of revenue. To the extent that the goal of winning was also satisfied that was fine but the first and foremost goal was revenue generation including fannies in seats.

 

How does that differ from making winning the primary goal? For one thing I think it explains why the Sox stopped looking for FA signings that filled a specific need and instead continually tried to sign the most high profile FA available.

 

If winning was the primary goal you would think that they would have reserved funds for FA starting pitching. However the last starting pitcher that they spent big bucks on was Lackey who they made the highest paid pitcher on the team. However if you look at what Lackey was the day we signed him it is hard to believe that was a move worth making. Got a lotta' PR but was a hell of a gamble if you were looking for results on the mound. As of 2009, John Lackey was a control pitcher whose best pitch was a slider. He already at that point had a 88-92 mph fastball and that was it. He had not pitched through complete seasons in the preceding two seasons before the RS signed him. I can remember people at the time talking about that being the point that really made the Lackey signing a gamble. I think it was a gamble as much for the fact that you are bringing a guy with a middling fastball into the toughest hitting division in baseball, a guy that will only survive if he can keep the ball down and would only prosper over here if he was extremely precise even while keeping it down in the zone.

 

Lackey has declined appreciably since being here, the most telling stat of all being swinging strikes which has fallen off a cliff. He no longer misses bats. However my point is that while Lackey made for good PR, based on pure potential as a pitcher he was one hell of a gamble. The other recent pitcher signing was.....dice.....you mean to tell me that we had to go to Japan for a starter. We had to spend $60M just to have the opportunity to sign him. How much of the decision to sign dice was glitz and PR instead of pure baseball? At least when we brought Beckett here he still had a heater and and when we brought Schill here he had already made the transition to being a complete pitcher. Schill could still get two strikes on you and throw a fastball that started at the belt and ended in your eyes. The difference was he no longer had to do that to get you out.

 

The everyday player FA signings that they have made have regularly been the top guy, the most coveted guy at a particular position in that FA season. Then to top it off, the cherry on the whip cream, we sign Crawford out of the blue for a stunning amount of money. We sign Crawford for so much money that I think we believe that they no longer have much FA flexibility over there on Yawkey Way. They probably don't but not because they are going broke but because they do not want to risk their bottom line.

 

So I agree, the guy or guys at the top bear the full brunt of accountability. Just remember that Theo is not the only guy in that crowded little row boat. Although I doubt we will see much honesty in that regard, not after seeing Larry L, Mr. "I was perplexed by Tito's comment that he did not feel as supported by ownership as he has in the past...we did not do anything differently this year". What a load of ******** that was.

 

This.

 

Agree.

 

BTW The whole thing about Lackey and D-K should be performed in a hollywood terror movie. I hope never see these busts again in Boston.

[jung]

Did anybody hear Dave O'Brien on WEEI at about 4:00 today? I have heard folks claiming that it is one of the best interviews on the September collapse and the state of the team anybody has heard so far but I did not hear it and have not seen anything posted. If anybody did hear it and has a summary of the key points from the interview please post something up.

[Palodios]

Did anybody hear Dave O'Brien on WEEI at about 4:00 today? I have heard folks claiming that it is one of the best interviews on the September collapse and the state of the team anybody has heard so far but I did not hear it and have not seen anything posted. If anybody did hear it and has a summary of the key points from the interview please post something up.

 

It'll be up tomorrow, probably:

 

http://audio.weei.com/weei/the_big_show.htm?resultType=media&media=audio

[jung]

Thanks for posting that link. Appreciate it!

[wyo-sox]

Just listened to it. Enjoyed it.

[jung]

Just listened to it. O'brien pointed to the Lavarnway home run as one of the things that looked really odd to him. Said he looked into the Sox dugout when it happened and one guy was headed for the clubhouse and nobody was really making a move to congratulate the kid.....a completely emotionless event.

 

Sox pitchers need to stop making excuses. While O'brien did not point at Lackey he did say that Lester started talking in terms of "feeling pretty good out there" after a lost game. Sounds to me like Lackey was rubbing off on the whole staff. How many times have we heard that from Lackey after a lost game.

 

Also indicated that when discussing the Sox staff with pitching coaches, they said the length of time between pitches for the whole staff was driving them crazy....usually a sign of no confidence or injury.

 

Last comment by O'brien on the clubhouse....during the Orioles series he would get down to the clubhouse after the game and the place would be empty with a few rookies standing by their lockers wondering if somebody was going to come by and talk to them....that is just awful to hear. Can you imagine how those guys felt?

 

Also mentioned that he thought the Sox had too many family trips for their players and while it is nice for the players to be able to take their families to away games, those should be treated as business trips but the Sox seemed to be distracted by having their families around and not very focused on the fact that there was a game to play.

 

Most disturbing comments to me about Larvanway's homer and the rookies standing around their lockers after games basically alone and isolated. Nasty stuff.

[a700hitter]

Just listened to it. O'brien pointed to the Lavarnway home run as one of the things that looked really odd to him. Said he looked into the Sox dugout when it happened and one guy was headed for the clubhouse and nobody was really making a move to congratulate the kid.....a completely emotionless event.

 

Sox pitchers need to stop making excuses. While O'brien did not point at Lackey he did say that Lester started talking in terms of "feeling pretty good out there" after a lost game. Sounds to me like Lackey was rubbing off on the whole staff. How many times have we heard that from Lackey after a lost game.

 

Also indicated that when discussing the Sox staff with pitching coaches, they said the length of time between pitches for the whole staff was driving them crazy....usually a sign of no confidence or injury.

 

Last comment by O'brien on the clubhouse....during the Orioles series he would get down to the clubhouse after the game and the place would be empty with a few rookies standing by their lockers wondering if somebody was going to come by and talk to them....that is just awful to hear. Can you imagine how those guys felt?

 

Also mentioned that he thought the Sox had too many family trips for their players and while it is nice for the players to be able to take their families to away games, those should be treated as business trips but the Sox seemed to be distracted by having their families around and not very focused on the fact that there was a game to play.

 

Most disturbing comments to me about Larvanway's homer and the rookies standing around their lockers after games basically alone and isolated. Nasty stuff.

During the last series against the O's, the team was shell shocked. By that point, they look stunned and defeated. They had done so much losing up to that point that they were running out of explanations and positive statements, so they beat it out of the clubhouse. I mean really what could they say at that point. They probably were expecting the worst, but couldn't say it, so they bailed. It wasn't the right thing to do, but I understand why they did it.

[jung]

During the last series against the O's, the team was shell shocked. By that point, they look stunned and defeated. They had done so much losing up to that point that they were running out of explanations and positive statements, so they beat it out of the clubhouse. I mean really what could they say at that point. They probably were expecting the worst, but couldn't say it, so they bailed. It wasn't the right thing to do, but I understand why they did it.

 

Agreed....to me it is more an issue of how difficult it was to be on this team for rooks and probably other new members as well. Being the only guys left in the clubhouse must have been a really really weird experience to go through.

[SCM33]

Just listened to it. O'brien pointed to the Lavarnway home run as one of the things that looked really odd to him. Said he looked into the Sox dugout when it happened and one guy was headed for the clubhouse and nobody was really making a move to congratulate the kid.....a completely emotionless event.

 

Sox pitchers need to stop making excuses. While O'brien did not point at Lackey he did say that Lester started talking in terms of "feeling pretty good out there" after a lost game. Sounds to me like Lackey was rubbing off on the whole staff. How many times have we heard that from Lackey after a lost game.

 

Also indicated that when discussing the Sox staff with pitching coaches, they said the length of time between pitches for the whole staff was driving them crazy....usually a sign of no confidence or injury.

 

Last comment by O'brien on the clubhouse....during the Orioles series he would get down to the clubhouse after the game and the place would be empty with a few rookies standing by their lockers wondering if somebody was going to come by and talk to them....that is just awful to hear. Can you imagine how those guys felt?

 

Also mentioned that he thought the Sox had too many family trips for their players and while it is nice for the players to be able to take their families to away games, those should be treated as business trips but the Sox seemed to be distracted by having their families around and not very focused on the fact that there was a game to play.

 

Most disturbing comments to me about Larvanway's homer and the rookies standing around their lockers after games basically alone and isolated. Nasty stuff.

 

This is the s*** I am talking about, blow that f***ing thing up. No more comfy couches, no more "family" trips. No family should be allowed on the same flight as players. No more PS3 and luxuries in the clubhouse. No more food/beverages in the locker room til the game is over. Players should even be allowed in the clubhouse unless they are getting treatment or taking a s***. No more cabs after games, all the f***ing players ride together.

 

How embarrassing.....what a f***ing disgrace this team was.

 

I end with this......anyone remember Kevin Youkilis's first career home run? Got the intentional "cold shoulder" and Youk was giving "high fives" to the air.....only to have the entire team swarm him and congratulate him.

 

Lavarnaway got a cold shoulder, only this time....the team meant it, f*** this current group of players.

[iortiz]

Just listened to it. O'brien pointed to the Lavarnway home run as one of the things that looked really odd to him. Said he looked into the Sox dugout when it happened and one guy was headed for the clubhouse and nobody was really making a move to congratulate the kid.....a completely emotionless event.

 

Sox pitchers need to stop making excuses. While O'brien did not point at Lackey he did say that Lester started talking in terms of "feeling pretty good out there" after a lost game. Sounds to me like Lackey was rubbing off on the whole staff. How many times have we heard that from Lackey after a lost game.

 

Also indicated that when discussing the Sox staff with pitching coaches, they said the length of time between pitches for the whole staff was driving them crazy....usually a sign of no confidence or injury.

 

Last comment by O'brien on the clubhouse....during the Orioles series he would get down to the clubhouse after the game and the place would be empty with a few rookies standing by their lockers wondering if somebody was going to come by and talk to them....that is just awful to hear. Can you imagine how those guys felt?

 

Also mentioned that he thought the Sox had too many family trips for their players and while it is nice for the players to be able to take their families to away games, those should be treated as business trips but the Sox seemed to be distracted by having their families around and not very focused on the fact that there was a game to play.

 

Most disturbing comments to me about Larvanway's homer and the rookies standing around their lockers after games basically alone and isolated. Nasty stuff.

 

Wow!

 

This team doesn't have leadership and teammate's spirit, starting at the top. I really don't understand why people still defending Theo, Tito, Lackey, etc... :thumbdown is it so hard to see? Really?

 

The more I see the more I'm convinced that SCM is right, blow it up.

 

Lamentable!