This needs to be said.

[seabeachfred]

You can out here. As long as it doesn't involve politics or simply being a troll.

 

VA Sox Fan, are you the lady I met at Fort Myers during Spring Training in 2007?:dunno::dunno:

[Brennan]

Fred, check your PM's.

 

Did you call?

[VA Sox Fan]

VA Sox Fan' date=' are you the lady I met at Fort Myers during Spring Training in 2007?:dunno::dunno:[/quote']

 

Yep. That was me.

[Brennan]

Yep. That was me.

 

 

Trust Fred then. I'm no troll.

[example1]

You have no idea the smear campaign jon and his boyfriend vic are starting on me now' date=' go check it out. You guys have to carry the torch.[/quote']

 

Fred, check your PM's.

 

Did you call?

 

I'm really glad to have all the new participants here, but there's probably better threads for complaining about other websites, no?

[Brennan]

I'm really glad to have all the new participants here' date=' but there's probably better threads for complaining about other websites, no?[/quote']

 

 

 

 

Point taken, I apologize.

 

I've just been cut off completely from my old buddies.

 

We'll take it to PM's.

[SCM33]

Jon Lester: supposedly high character guy (that's why everyone was shocked he's involved in this s***). Fought to overcome cancer. One of the best pitchers in the league. Francona and he were apparently tight prior to this season. No known character issues.

 

Josh Beckett: stared down the Cubs and Yankees in 2003 and Guardians and Rockies in 2007 to win World Series. Supposedly one of the strongest competetors in the game. What team wouldn't have wanted his abilities on the mound? Until two weeks ago Curt Schilling (Mr. Character) was saying Josh was one of his most admired pitchers in the game.

 

John Lackey: Big douchebag, but reports from ANA and from people who knew him previously were that he actually cared about how his teams did and his own performance in that regard. Then his wife gets cancer, he has problems with his child, is in a messy divorce and started not caring as much. It happens to people in all walks of life and it certainly won't be the last time it happens in baseball.

 

How these three started having such an insidious impact on each other I don't know, but somehow it happened. I don't think that means the Sox should have dealt Lester or not acquired Beckett. The Lackey signing will be second guessed over and over again (rightly so) but he was the best realistic and available SP on the market that year.

 

Also, the Sox were not getting Cliff Lee or some other elite SP in Lackey's place at last year's offseason.

 

Sometimes character issues are unpredictable and come from a bad combination of the underlying facets of each person's personality. Should the FO pay more attention to it in the future? Yes. Were these three pitchers as blatently bad characters as guys like Carl Everett or Milton Bradley? Not by a longshot.

 

Jon Lester is clearly one of the top 10 or so pitchers in the league but expectations would have had him solidly in the top 5 and that did not happen. While there has been a good deal of news about Sox minor leaguers taking a step backwards this season, clearly so did Lester. He did not take the reins from Beckett this year and that was clearly the expectation.

 

Josh Beckett has been a very strong, solid and reliable pitcher for a very long time. As i have said before I believe Josh to be going through the kind of transitional period that all but the most powerful of power pitchers tend to go through eventually. Steroids probably forestalled this period for Clemens. Nolan Ryan was strong enough not to have gone down this transitional path, Randy Johnson comes to mind as does Tom Seaver. But Josh is more in the Greg Maddux mold to me and is mid stream making a transition to that sort of a pitcher. I think Josh is fighting more than accepting it and that has been and is something of an issue for him. A tough time not to have a really strong influence as a pitching coach.

 

John Lackey never should have been brought here. I know this looks like Monday morning quarterbacking but just based on his pitching skills at the time and what the Sox had going for them at the time they would have been better served going down a different road. At that point Lester was clearly ready to emerge as a force on the mound for the Sox. They had Beckett still in his prime and Buckholtz as George Harrison to Beckett and Lester's Lennon and McCartney. They did not at that point need to spend monster money on the guy that appeared to be the best SP of that FA season which has been our complaint about many of the FA signings of recent memory. It is just too easy to open the wallet and go after the guy at the top of the list. They should have tried to bring in somebody younger, cheaper and more of a risk, somebody with big upside, great stuff and his career ahead of him because they had the stability at SP to do that. Lackey was not a power pitcher. He was a pitcher entirely dependent on control especially of his slider which is now the pitch that so often finds opposing bats.

 

As for Lackey's clubhouse issues, I have said before that the things Lackey has gone through are things everyday people go through all the time. Lackey for whatever reason felt justified in bringing all of his dirty laundry through the clubhouse. Clearly that must have been the reason why management finally sent him away for awhile saying something like "look John just go take care of this mess. We will give you time to do it" (very generous and very rare I might add) but clearly the implication was that this had gone on bearing down on the team for a long time now and Sox management had had it and was doing this with the intent that he not come back continuing to drag his s*** through the clubhouse. If you allow this sort of stuff to just go on and on you eventually find that everybody feels entitled to drag their s*** through your workplace whatever it is and you also find out that most of us are carrying bucket loads of s*** and suddenly there it is all out there on your floor. You are not running a baseball team or any other kind of a workplace at that point. Instead you have a sponsored group therapy session that occasionally puts its problems aside to do a little work, occasionally!! Hate to lay it all at Lackey's doorstep but there it is. Unless I see evidence otherwise, for me Lackey is the player most responsible for dragging this clubhouse down. His performance on the mound went to hell and he turned out to be clubhouse poison to boot. Lackey shows all the signs of being a big overgrown child which truth be told is the case for many pro athletes as they never have had to grow up.

 

Pitching Coach Curt Young is gone.

 

Another step towards changing the clubhouse culture. He was great with younger kids in Oakland, they walked all over him in his only year here.

 

Most loved teammate?

 

John Lackey

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/2011_1021most_loved_teammate_yup_lackey/

 

They ABSOLUTELY need to move him. He is the most liked teammate which means if he stays, the players will be happy. The great thing is that he absolutely sucks so its a win win.

 

Send a message to the clubhouse, piss off the players AND you ride yourself of a heaping pile of Chunk from the goonies garbage.

 

Quoting these posts to bump them ahead of the trash that spilled over from "their" old s***** forum. Click on the little blue arrow next to the username to bring the convo back to the original post for quoting purposes.

[seabeachfred]

Taking this post from where this thread begun by SCM, it is obvious that except for press butt kissers like Edes and Silverman, the Boston Press is finally laying into messrs Henry, Lucchino, and Werner and not a minute too soon. In fact, it should have happened a lot earlier because this trio along with Epstein and Francona were given a boatman's holiday for years, and to refresh memories that mostl likely don't need to be refreshed, the last four seasons have been pure crapola. The last two have been a debacle. I get pissed off when some of the pollyannas on all the boards keep harking back to 2004 and 2007 as if that should placate all of us from here on in. Bu@@sh@@!!!!!!!!! Two third place finishes in succession and a weak second place finish in 2009 won't cut with fans who demand more and expect more.

 

I'd like to believe that after the assault from the press and TV and radio media, coupled with this season's disgraceful finish, the bogus trio at the top will get their butts in gear and start doing the right thing by hiring a tough manager, getting rid of the sacred cow relics, rid ourselves of the excess personnel garbage and clean up the clubhouse so that maybe we can win a division once in awhile.

 

It's my opinion only but if this season didn't leave a bitter taste in your mouth I have to question just how deep your affection for the Red Sox is. We should all be pissed off.

[jung]

Actually MLB is about to give the Red Sox the biggest get out of jail card free maybe in the history of the game. The extra wild card team will likely make it possible for Boston to claim victory as long as we can just nose our way into that last playoff spot.

[mvp 78]

Fred, you've only been a fan since 2004, which was noted back in the dodger blues drama. You have little right to question anyone else's "affection" for the team.

[SoxSport]

Interesting how Young was so successful in Oakland and unsuccessful in Boston.

 

To me, it suggests a radical difference in the environments of the two teams.

Maybe the coaches are listened to more in Oakland.

In Boston, maybe the players listen more to their agents.

 

The Young experience maybe was a warning signal to Henry.

[SoxSport]

Actually MLB is about to give the Red Sox the biggest get out of jail card free maybe in the history of the game. The extra wild card team will likely make it possible for Boston to claim victory as long as we can just nose our way into that last playoff spot.

 

The wild card is screwed up right now, and has to be modified. It's too easy for a team to coast the season, then get hot in September, and wipe out everybody in the playoffs.

I think the Red Sox were always playing for the wild card. Francona, it seems, never got serious about winning until September--discounting the last September, that is.

 

Asking the best season record teams in each league (this year, Yankees and Phillies) to play these hot wild card teams in a short 5 game series is unfair. The best record teams deserve a bye in the 1st round--or at least a 7 game series.

[Palodios]

the last four seasons have been pure crapola.

 

The last four seasons? Excuse me? The Red Sox were a game away from the World Series in 2008.

[a700hitter]

The last four seasons? Excuse me? The Red Sox were a game away from the World Series in 2008.

The 2008 Red Sox lost the Division to a vastly inferior Rays team costing them home field advantage in the playoffs and ultimately costing them back to back titles.

[Palodios]

The 2008 Red Sox lost the Division to a vastly inferior Rays team costing them home field advantage in the playoffs and ultimately costing them back to back titles.

 

Not my point. One game from a World Series =/= Pure Crapola.

[User Name]

Some people on this site seem to love hyperbole/rhetoric to sickening levels. They were a win away from the WS in 2008 and made the playoffs in '09, both succesful seasons. If you think otherwise, you're either a retardedly entitled fan (a seemingly ongoing issue with RS nation) or have really unrealistic expectations.

[Palodios]

Some people on this site seem to love hyperbole/rhetoric to sickening levels. They were a win away from the WS in 2008 and made the playoffs in '09' date=' both succesful seasons. If you think otherwise, you're either a retardedly entitled fan (a seemingly ongoing issue with RS nation) or have really unrealistic expectations.[/quote']

 

This.

[a700hitter]

Some people on this site seem to love hyperbole/rhetoric to sickening levels. They were a win away from the WS in 2008 and made the playoffs in '09' date=' both succesful seasons. If you think otherwise, you're either a retardedly entitled fan (a seemingly ongoing issue with RS nation) or have really unrealistic expectations.[/quote']Keep your posting to a discussion of baseball and not the other posters.

[User Name]

I can see you have quite a high opinion of yourself. May be time to test out that ignore feature to avoid future hassle....

[a700hitter]

I can see you have quite a high opinion of yourself. May be time to test out that ignore feature to avoid future hassle....

Done. I can see that you won't last long.

[Divinity]

Some people on this site seem to love hyperbole/rhetoric to sickening levels. They were a win away from the WS in 2008 and made the playoffs in '09' date=' both succesful seasons. If you think otherwise, you're either a retardedly entitled fan (a seemingly ongoing issue with RS nation) or have really unrealistic expectations.[/quote']

 

When you have a payroll like the Red Sox do the expectations should be high, anything short of reaching the WS is a failure.

[User Name]

So from 2001 to 2011, every season except 2009 is a failure for the Yankees even though they've won the division on an almost yearly basis, have reached the playoffs almost every year and have reached the World Series several times?

 

I don't see it. Even with the high payroll, every year that the Yankees have made the playoffs has been a success, and ditto for the Red Sox.

[a700hitter]

When you have a payroll like the Red Sox do the expectations should be high' date=' anything short of reaching the WS is a failure.[/quote']When we get beat by the Yankees, it's hard to take, but it doesn't rise to the level of a failure, because the Yankees are one of the very few teams with resources equaling or exceeding the Red Sox. However, missing the playoffs in 3 of the last 6 seasons is not a good record, and losing the division title to the Rays in 2008 when the Sox had a powerhouse team also fell short of expectations. The Sox could have taken the Phillies in the 2008 Series. They had the worst starting pitching that I can remember on a World Champion team. The Rays just didn't have the horses to take advantage of it.

[a700hitter]

Not my point. One game from a World Series =/= Pure Crapola.

Not pure crapola, but a missed opportunity. Those opportunities don't come along every season. When they come along, they need to be seized. The 2008 Sox were a much better team than the Rays. They never should have lost the division to them. They underperformed.

[Divinity]

So from 2001 to 2011, every season except 2009 is a failure for the Yankees even though they've won the division on an almost yearly basis, have reached the playoffs almost every year and have reached the World Series several times?

 

I don't see it. Even with the high payroll, every year that the Yankees have made the playoffs has been a success, and ditto for the Red Sox.

 

Winning the division was always expected of the Yankees. First round exits in the playoffs was never acceptable for George, he even threatened to fire Torre if they didn't make it to the ALCS in '07.

 

Perhaps reaching the WS every year is a bit much, but I think they need to at least win a series in the playoffs for the season to be considered a success.

[User Name]

MLB playoff series are probably the most unpredictable type of post-season series in any sport.

 

You can't "expect" to beat anyone, because anything can happen in a short series. The 2006 Cardinals were arguably the worst team in the playoffs and won it all. Making the playoffs should be considered a success IMO, but you're welcome to disagree.

 

However, i think that it's a bit silly to name a season in which your team made the playoffs a failure.

[Palodios]

Not pure crapola' date=' but a missed opportunity. Those opportunities don't come along every season. When they come along, they need to be seized. The 2008 Sox were a much better team than the Rays. They never should have lost the division to them. They underperformed.[/quote']

 

The better team doesn't always win. The better matchup wins. And the Rays have had a favorable matchup against the Red Sox for years now because of their speed, pitching and versatility, despite their lack of offense.

[User Name]

The better team doesn't always win. The better matchup wins. And the Rays have had a favorable matchup against the Red Sox for years now because of their speed' date=' pitching and versatility, despite their lack of offense.[/quote']

 

Offensively, they weren't as bad as perceived. The accumulative stats may not show it, but that offense really came to life once Evan Longoria got comfortable at the ML level.

 

They had a .745 OPS in the first half, and a much improved .785 OPS in the second half. And they had, of course, better pitching and defense.

[a700hitter]

The better team doesn't always win. The better matchup wins. And the Rays have had a favorable matchup against the Red Sox for years now because of their speed' date=' pitching and versatility, despite their lack of offense.[/quote']The 2008 Sox should have won the Division. That had little to do with matchups. We beat the yanks in the season series in 2011, but they still won the Division.

[Cask N Flagon 76]

Fact is our team has not made the playoffs in 2 straight years which in my eyes is a failure plain and

simple. We have had powerhouse teams that should have won a WS or gone deep in the playoffs and

failed, Once again failure in my eyes. I don't look at numbers to see why my team did not make the playoffs or got bounced from a series as well, I'm just say anything less then a WS is failure and

perfection should be wanted in the franchise.