Starting Shortstop 2011

[Spudboy]

So I guess a 3rd baseman with near gold glove skills at his position and an OPS hovering around 1.000 is just above average.

 

Good to know.

[Dipre]

So I guess a 3rd baseman with near gold glove skills at his position and an OPS hovering around 1.000 is just above average.

 

Good to know.

 

Now defense does really really matter.

 

By the way, Youkilis is actually very good at 3B, and should be even better since he'll be preparing for that position instead of jumping around the diamond all the time. If healthy, he could be one of the best 3B in the league. And we're talking about a guy with the pedigree that backs up making such a substantial claim.

[BSN07]

Yeah he defintally will be better then average i just dont know if he will be top 3 in the postion in the leauge like pedroia and gonzo are' date=' with his work ethic and the way he plays the game though i can defintally envision it happening thats why i said atleast above avergae that gives us a lot of space to work with

 

Longoria, Zimmerman, Gay-Rod, Wright, Beltre, Young, and Youk are probably the top 3B in the league overall(I could be missing someone, this was off the top of my head). That's 7/30 of the starting 3B i the league. I think it's safe to say they will be above average at 3B this season.

 

If I had to make a list taking into account offense, defense and age it would go like this,

 

Longoria

Zimmerman

Wright

Youk/Arod

Beltre/Young

 

Scuataro needs to start in the beginning to keep his trade value reasonable. Allow Lowrie to ease in and not throw everything in his lap at once. If he stays healthy and is hitting, they can always move Scutaro(decent SS should get something of value toward the TDL) for other needs later on. Next season he can get the majority of the time at SS t start off with Iglesias coming in a few times a week as they ease him in to the ML level. Lowrie in those games ca give the other IF's an occasional breather.

[Dojji]

So I guess a 3rd baseman with near gold glove skills at his position and an OPS hovering around 1.000 is just above average.

 

Good to know.

 

So calling someone "at least above average" is somehow an insult?????

 

Logic fail on your part, Spud. An elite top 5 3B is "at least above average." All Exman was doing was hedging his bets in case Youk had trouble defensively.

[EXman369]

So calling someone "at least above average" is somehow an insult?????

 

Logic fail on your part, Spud. An elite top 5 3B is "at least above average." All Exman was doing was hedging his bets in case Youk had trouble defensively.

 

Thats exactly my point in no way was i saying above average is a bad thing or calling him a bad player but just not positive him being a top 3 player in that position. In no way is calling some one at least above average an insult to the player

[SoxFanForsyth]

Are you guys arguing about a player being "above average" vs "great" or "elite"?

 

No sense in arguing. Youk will be a 25-30 HR/ 95-105 RBI/.300-.310 hitter.

 

Other than Longoria, is there a 3rd baseman in the MLB right now who can hit over .305+, drive in over 95 a year, and hit 25-30 HR?

 

Given, Beltre did that last year, but look at how that year was viewed. A "monster" year for him. Other than Beltre's .328 BA, his stats are comparable to what Youk puts up annually. Beltre's were marginally better.

[Dipre]

Thats exactly my point in no way was i saying above average is a bad thing or calling him a bad player but just not positive him being a top 3 player in that position. In no way is calling some one at least above average an insult to the player

 

I believe what Spudboy means is that a lot of people seem to not have a lot of confidence in the "total" package Youk brings to the table.

 

"Above average" refers to someone who's just above the means, and with his offensive numbers and more than passable defense, there should be no doubt when referring to him as an "elite" 3B.

 

The average 3B last year had an OPS right below .800 and FLD value right around 3.0 (per Fangraphs). Youkilis is a career .891 hitter, (surpassed only by Beltre last year), and has a 6.9 UZR/150 on the defensive end, both top four at the position.

[Keeper]

Other than Longoria' date=' is there a 3rd baseman in the MLB right now who can hit over .305+, drive in over 95 a year, and hit 25-30 HR?[/quote']

 

Zimmerman and maybe A-Rod.

[SoxFanForsyth]

By the way - from 2008-2010, Youks 162 game average has been .308/.404/.560/.964 with 45 doubles, 32 HR, 115 RBI's.

 

If he can't put in 155 games at 3rd, he needs to DH on his days off, and his days off need to be against tough lefties and put Lowrie at 3rd.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Zimmerman and maybe A-Rod.

 

I'll give you Zimmerman, especially if he was on a team that scored a few more runs.

 

A-Rod used to be that kind of a threat. Now he's a .275-.285 hitter. I'll give you the 25+ HR and 100+ RBI's, but he's not a .300+ hitter anymore.

[Dipre]

Zimmerman and maybe A-Rod.

 

Longoria too.

 

But this is why counting stats are a bit misleading. Granted, i believe Youk is kind of a fragile player (please don't jump on me, i'm not bashing the guy) since he hasn't played a season with 145+ games yet, but when he's healthy, he puts up a better OPS than basically anyone in the league.

[EXman369]

I always knew youk was a great player but didn't realize that he was considered elite at 3B partially because of the bigger competition at 1B number wise

[Dojji]

I think what people are looking at worrying about Youk's D is not so much the fact that he's played first, because we know he's always kept current at third, but the fact that he has never actually played a full season as a third baseman. I'm just saying, there's legitimate room for a bit of skepticism, especially since Youkilis is on the far side of 30 and is no stranger to the DL.

 

Just imagine if Jed Lowrie had played a season or two at 2B because something happened to Pedroia, and then Peddy was back or we had another 2B who would definitely be starting there full time over Lowrie, and the announcement came down that Lowrie would be the starting SS. Even if he'd backed up 20-30 games a year at SS for various reasons and hadn't looked bad there, there'd be plenty of room for skepticism right?

 

Personally I think he's gonna be fine. But there's enough facts in the "cause for worry" column that I'm not going to stand in line to mock the guys that don't.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Longoria too.

 

But this is why counting stats are a bit misleading. Granted, i believe Youk is kind of a fragile player (please don't jump on me, i'm not bashing the guy) since he hasn't played a season with 145+ games yet, but when he's healthy, he puts up a better OPS than basically anyone in the league.

 

The question he was answering was "Other than Longo, can anyone else claim these stats...blah blah blah" so that's why he left off Longo.

 

Youk needs time to lick his wounds a few games a year, but he can still DH while he does it. We'll face CC, Price, Wilson and plenty of other strong LHP plenty of times this year, and thats where Youk should DH, Lowrie to 3B, Papi on the bench as a PH.

 

As good as Ortiz is, Lowrie is better vs strong LHP.

[italstallianion]

If David Wright played in Fenway I bet he could challenge those numbers too.

[Dipre]

Lol @ worrying about the fact that Youk (a consistent offensive performer) hasn't played a full season at 3rd while Lowrie's (not a consistent offensive performer and hasn't played a full season in the Majors) health and SSS issues can be brushed aside. Dear Lord.

 

 

@ForSyth: Ortiz is not good against lefties at all (OPS under .700 the last two seasons) anyone else on the team can perform better against them, and with Lowrie having seen time at 3B before and having solid minor league splits against them, he's the obvious candidate.

[Dojji]

Yeah sorry, you can LOL all you want to. It's a legitimate concern. He's no stranger to injury, he's moving up the defensive spectrum on the far side of 30, and while he's athletic for a 1B, not so much for a 3B.

 

I still think he's gonna be pretty good, but open your goddamned mind to a contrary opinion for once in your miserable little life.

[Spudboy]

So calling someone "at least above average" is somehow an insult?????

 

Logic fail on your part, Spud. An elite top 5 3B is "at least above average." All Exman was doing was hedging his bets in case Youk had trouble defensively.

 

Logic never escapes me. Except once in a great while when dealing with affairs of the heart.

 

Common sense, powers of observation, and memory fail some of the younger members of Talksox. That was the point of my post.

 

Youk is one of the most productive players (offensively) in the AL every year. And I, for one, remember him being a very good defensive player at third.

[Spudboy]

Jesus (Christ, not Alou).

[SoxFanForsyth]

Look. Youk has logged 1,606 innings over at 3B and has a career 6.9 UZR/150. Compared to the rest of the league from 04-10, that puts him at 8th in the league defensively.

 

We know he's an elite offensive 3rd baseman, and historically he has been near elite defensively at 3rd base. To me, 1600+ innings is more than ample enough of a sample size to draw conclusions, so I would say it is fair to say that he will stay around there.

[Dipre]

Yeah sorry, you can LOL all you want to. It's a legitimate concern. He's no stranger to injury, he's moving up the defensive spectrum on the far side of 30, and while he's athletic for a 1B, not so much for a 3B.

 

I still think he's gonna be pretty good, but open your goddamned mind to a contrary opinion for once in your miserable little life.

 

Still Lol'ing.

 

It's a matter of this:

 

Common sense, powers of observation, and memory fail some of the younger members of Talksox.

 

And i'd avoid the "miserable life" comments. That's another argument ya ain't gonna win.

[EXman369]

I think that Dojji is saying that you can't over look the fact that youk has played exclusively 1B since 2006 other then splitting the time at 1 and 3 in 2009

[Dojji]

It's not only that, it's the fact that he has never been the starting 3B. I don't think he'll suck, but you have to admit the chance is there. You can't pretend you're doing anything other than extrapolating part time stats to full time play defensively, which I'm... reliably informed.. is not a dependable way to do player analysis.

[SoxFanForsyth]

It's not only that' date=' it's the fact that he has never been the starting 3B. I don't think he'll suck, but you have to admit the chance is there. You can't pretend you're doing anything other than extrapolating part time stats to full time play defensively, which I'm... reliably informed.. is not a dependable way to do player analysis.[/quote']

 

I strongly, strongly believe that if there was any indication at all that Youkilis would have a problem transitioning from 1st to 3rd, this deal would have never been made. I'm sure Theo did his homework on Youk's potential at 3rd base before he signed the papers on the Gonzo deal. He wouldn't cut off his nose to spite his face.

[Dipre]

I strongly' date=' strongly believe that if there was any indication at all that Youkilis would have a problem transitioning from 1st to 3rd, this deal would have never been made. I'm sure Theo did his homework on Youk's potential at 3rd base before he signed the papers on the Gonzo deal. He wouldn't cut off his nose to spite his face.[/quote']

 

Kevin Youkilis was a third baseman who turned himself into a first baseman, not the other way around, and he's been playing the position basically every year to some extent.

 

I'll say it again, because it's the truth. Expressing supreme confidence in Jed Lowrie's ability to stay healthy and produce at SS while showing skepticism that Youkilis can do the same at 3B is one of the absolutely biggest logical fallacies i have ever seen. Dear Lord in Heaven.

[SCM33]

Just throwing wads of toilet paper against the wall here to see what sticks, but is there ANY way they ask Beltre if he can play SS? How bad can a GG 3B'man be at SS??

 

He will probably still have better range than Jeter

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

And why would they do that?

[SCM33]

And why would they do that?

 

You answered a question with a question.

 

Thanks for the answer.

[Dipre]

You answered a question with a question.

 

Thanks for the answer.

 

We have Jed. The answer is clear.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Just throwing wads of toilet paper against the wall here to see what sticks, but is there ANY way they ask Beltre if he can play SS? How bad can a GG 3B'man be at SS??

 

He will probably still have better range than Jeter

 

I don't see why they would do that. We're fine at SS. It's not a priority.