Yankees 2010-2011 Hotstove Thread

[Meh]

Whomever it is' date=' they will have to be ok with Hank and Hal having the final word. I'm actually surprised Cashman has hung in along as he has. I think what you have to worry about if Cashman leaves, is who he takes with him from the current FO and Scouting departments.[/quote']

 

Well actually Hank doesn't really have any say anymore, thank God. We've got two pretty good inhouse guys in Damon and Billy I think it might be either one of those. I was thinking in the summer might be time to let Cashman go anyway and get some new ideas in there.

[jacksonianmarch]

Cashman isnt leaving, lets just get that straight. The Yankees GM spot is the most glamorous spot in baseball, it just comes with certain annoyances. That being said, it also comes with unrivalled perks. He's disagreed with them before and he did fine

[yankees228]

Cashman isnt leaving' date=' lets just get that straight. The Yankees GM spot is the most glamorous spot in baseball, it just comes with certain annoyances. That being said, it also comes with unrivalled perks. He's disagreed with them before and he did fine[/quote']

 

After already having won four championships and getting overruled from time to time by ownership, it isn't so ridiculous to think that Cashman might want to take on a different sort of challenge.

[yankees228]

Well actually Hank doesn't really have any say anymore' date=' thank God. We've got two pretty good inhouse guys in Damon and Billy I think it might be either one of those. [b']I was thinking in the summer might be time to let Cashman go anyway and get some new ideas in there.[/b]

 

I was really upset that they didn't trade for Dan Haren, but I'm not sure I understand what would prompt this feeling. At the time (last summer) the Yankees were the defending champions and had the best (or second best) record in baseball.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Cashman isnt leaving' date=' lets just get that straight. The Yankees GM spot is the most glamorous spot in baseball, it just comes with certain annoyances. That being said, it also comes with unrivalled perks. He's disagreed with them before and he did fine[/quote']

 

You 95% sure?

[Meh]

I was really upset that they didn't trade for Dan Haren' date=' but I'm not sure I understand what would prompt this feeling. At the time (last summer) the Yankees were the defending champions and had the best (or second best) record in baseball.[/quote']

 

It's not just the Haren trade. Cashman is a good GM. Top 5? maybe, he's not just a check book GM. I like Cashman a lot, I've defended him several times and like I said think he's a good GM but sometimes its good to just get some new ideas in there. He's become predictable. I won't be upset if he stays.

[diony]

I was really upset that they didn't trade for Dan Haren' date=' but I'm not sure I understand what would prompt this feeling. At the time (last summer) the Yankees were the defending champions and had the best (or second best) record in baseball.[/quote']

 

I don't blame them for not trading for Haren. He was trying to trade for Lee at that time, and Lee was their primary target on the offseason. Tood bad it didn't worked out for them. Haren had a 4.60 ERA before the trade, it wasn't a good idea to bring him to the AL East at the time.

[Keeper]

On the other hand, you might have been able to trade less value for Haren while his ERA was inflated. We'll never know now.

[yankees228]

I don't blame them for not trading for Haren. He was trying to trade for Lee at that time' date=' and Lee was their primary target on the offseason. Tood bad it didn't worked out for them. Haren had a 4.60 ERA before the trade, it wasn't a good idea to bring him to the AL East at the time.[/quote']

 

The Haren rumors began after Lee was already dealt to the Rangers. Sure Haren was shaky in the first half of the season, but his numbers were inflated by an extremely high BABIP. As expected, he was much better in the second half, and finished the season with a 3.91 ERA, 3.71 FIP, and 4.5 fWAR.

 

Furthermore, what's more important than his first half in 2010 is his track record leading up to last year.

 

2007 - 3.07 ERA, 3.70 FIP, 4.9 fWAR

2008 - 3.33 ERA, 3.01 FIP, 6.5 fWAR

2009 - 3.14 ERA, 3.23 FIP, 6.1 fWAR

 

Considering the state of the Yankees' rotation at the time (Pettitte hurt, Burnett struggling, Vazquez struggling, Hughes coming back down to earth, Mitre in the rotation, and Lee off the market), the outlook for 2011 rotation (Vazquez gone and Pettitte possibly retiring), the reported asking price (a package headlined by Joba Chamberlain), and what the D-Backs eventually got for him (a package headlined by Joe Saunders) not trading for Haren was a mistake on the part of the Yankees.

[yankees228]

It's not just the Haren trade. Cashman is a good GM. Top 5? maybe' date=' he's not just a check book GM. I like Cashman a lot, I've defended him several times and like I said think he's a good GM but sometimes its good to just get some new ideas in there. He's become predictable. I won't be upset if he stays.[/quote']

 

Being predictable and having been with the same team for awhile are not legitimate reasons to let someone go. Cashman generally makes good decisions, and has been successful in his time with the Yankees. Unless he wants to leave, there is no reason for the Yankees to move on from him.

 

Chuck Noll was predictable and had been with the Steelers for over 20 years. Doesn't mean they should have fired him.

[Dipre]

I think Cashman absolutely did the right thing by not trading for Haren.

 

Haren is a HR-prone pitcher with a notable split difference who would have been moving from the NL West to the best hitting stadium of the NL East.

 

The state of the rotation must be considered, but when trading for a player (and a high priced one) you want to give them the best chance to succeed, and moving Haren to a place that exposed his flaws would have not been the case here.

 

No matter how nice the stats are, i think he simply wasn't a good fit, specially if he was going to cost money and prospects.

[diony]

 

Considering the state of the Yankees' rotation at the time (Pettitte hurt, Burnett struggling, Vazquez struggling, Hughes coming back down to earth, Mitre in the rotation, and Lee off the market), the outlook for 2011 rotation (Vazquez gone and Pettitte possibly retiring), the reported asking price (a package headlined by Joba Chamberlain), and what the D-Backs eventually got for him (a package headlined by Joe Saunders) not trading for Haren was a mistake on the part of the Yankees.

 

My bad, I thought Lee was dealt AFTER the Haren.

 

They weren't thinking about the 2011 rotation, they were thinking about improving the team back in July. Remember Javy had a great June (3.23 ERA and 0.97 WHIP) and July (3.34 ERA and 1.11 WHIP), and no one expected to blow out like he did. Plus Haren has a career 4.07 ERA and 1.30 WHIP in the 2nd half, add the AL East factor to that and you have a problem.

 

With CC, Hughes, Pettite, Vasquez and Burnett, we all thought Lee or Haren would have been a luxury.

 

I would love to have Haren now, but getting Haren back then, means they wouldn't have tried to get Lee this off-season.

[Keeper]

I think Cashman absolutely did the right thing by not trading for Haren.

 

Haren is a HR-prone pitcher with a notable split difference who would have been moving from the NL West to the best hitting stadium of the NL East.

 

The state of the rotation must be considered, but when trading for a player (and a high priced one) you want to give them the best chance to succeed, and moving Haren to a place that exposed his flaws would have not been the case here.

 

No matter how nice the stats are, i think he simply wasn't a good fit, specially if he was going to cost money and prospects.

 

All good points, but Haren still would have been good in pinstripes. He really didn't give up any more HRs in Arizona than he did on the road. Maybe he wasn't the best fit in the world, but he would have easily been their #2. Beckett isn't the best fit for the Sox for similar reasons and Haren is much, much better than him.

[yankees228]

I think Cashman absolutely did the right thing by not trading for Haren.

 

Haren is a HR-prone pitcher with a notable split difference who would have been moving from the NL West to the best hitting stadium of the NL East.

 

The state of the rotation must be considered, but when trading for a player (and a high priced one) you want to give them the best chance to succeed, and moving Haren to a place that exposed his flaws would have not been the case here.

 

No matter how nice the stats are, i think he simply wasn't a good fit, specially if he was going to cost money and prospects.

 

There's no way Haren would have been able to repeat his previous success with the Yankees. He would have surrendered more home runs pitching half his games in Yankee Stadium and going up against better competition. However, Haren doesn't compound the problem with walks, so while he would give up more HRs, it's likely that many of them would have been of the solo variety.

 

Haren still would have been a very good pitcher, capable of producing a 4-5 fWAR annually and he would have immediately stepped in as the Yankees' second best pitcher. Judging by what the Diamondbacks were rumored to be asking of the Yankees and what they eventually got from the Angels, the cost in players would not have been a steep one. And his cost (11 million dollar AAV), while high, would have been easily afforded by the Yankees, a team that just gave out more money than that to a relief pitcher.

 

Would Haren have been the perfect fit for the Yankees? No, but then again, few pitchers are when you consider the stadium and the competition. I just think that when you couple where he would slot into the Yankees' rotation with the cost of the acquiring him, it was a transaction worth making.

[Dipre]

All good points' date=' but Haren still would have been good in pinstripes. He really didn't give up any more HRs in Arizona than he did on the road. Maybe he wasn't the best fit in the world, but he would have easily been their #2. Beckett isn't the best fit for the Sox for similar reasons and Haren is much, much better than him.[/quote']

 

and @Y228 as well.

 

Not at the cost of Lee it wasn't. I believe they would have acquired one of the pitchers, but not both (judging from recent comments and actions) and no one could have predicted Lee signing with Philly.

 

In the end, it was the perfect storm of unforseen circumstances that screwed the Yankees over. Lee was the better fit, the better value, and a legitimate co-ace.

[yankees228]

My bad, I thought Lee was dealt AFTER the Haren.

 

They weren't thinking about the 2011 rotation, they were thinking about improving the team back in July. Remember Javy had a great June (3.23 ERA and 0.97 WHIP) and July (3.34 ERA and 1.11 WHIP), and no one expected to blow out like he did. Plus Haren has a career 4.07 ERA and 1.30 WHIP in the 2nd half, add the AL East factor to that and you have a problem.

 

With CC, Hughes, Pettite, Vasquez and Burnett, we all thought Lee or Haren would have been a luxury.

 

I would love to have Haren now, but getting Haren back then, means they wouldn't have tried to get Lee this off-season.

 

I find it very hard to believe that a professional baseball franchise was only thinking about the present, and not the future. If what you said is the case, then lots of people need to be fired immediately.

 

As for Vazquez, while he was good in those months, he did so with a ridiculously low BABIP, and his velocity remained unimproved. After what he did in the first two months of the season and with the weather beginning to cool down, it would have been foolish to expect Vazquez's success to continue.

 

As for his second half, those things tend to fluctuate. All you need to do is look at his first half of 2010, which goes against his career trends. It's possible that he would have struggled in the second half, but all signs pointed in the opposite direction.

 

Additionally, you can't say everyone thought one of those pitchers would be a luxury. I was on this board, numerous times, stating that I thought the rotation was in a great deal of trouble moving forward, and that failing to acquire Haren was a mistake. The Yankees definitely agreed with this notion, otherwise they wouldn't have been willing to part with Jesus Montero for 2.5 months of Cliff Lee.

 

When it comes to this offseason, they still would have had the necessary money to go after Cliff Lee. What has happened this offseason proves that, because after all the money they've spent, they still have approximately 20 million dollars left to spend.

[diony]

I find it very hard to believe that a professional baseball franchise was only thinking about the present, and not the future. If what you said is the case, then lots of people need to be fired immediately.

 

The Yankees are and have always been a "Win now" team. The last bridge year was 1995.

[Divinity]

 

Considering the state of the Yankees' rotation at the time (Pettitte hurt, Burnett struggling, Vazquez struggling, Hughes coming back down to earth, Mitre in the rotation, and Lee off the market), the outlook for 2011 rotation (Vazquez gone and Pettitte possibly retiring), the reported asking price (a package headlined by Joba Chamberlain), and what the D-Backs eventually got for him (a package headlined by Joe Saunders) not trading for Haren was a mistake on the part of the Yankees.

 

I remember the situation exactly, the reason the Yankees ultimately passed on Haren is because they would've had to pay him 12.75 million next two years, which would've forced them to pass on Lee during FA. Had the Yankees known Lee was going to reject their offer, I'm sure Haren would be in pinstripes. Can't say I blame them for opting to wait for Lee.

[Dipre]

 

When it comes to this offseason, they still would have had the necessary money to go after Cliff Lee. What has happened this offseason proves that, because after all the money they've spent, they still have approximately 20 million dollars left to spend.

 

I don't see it. They were going to spend 23-24 per on Lee (had he signed) and Haren would have cost 12.5 mill.

 

They haven't a lot of money on an AAV basis, so i really don't see the connection here.

[yankees228]

The Yankees are and have always been a "Win now" team. The last bridge year was 1995.

 

They're always thinking about the present and the future, and Haren was a move that would have helped on both fronts.

[yankees228]

I don't see it. They were going to spend 23-24 per on Lee (had he signed) and Haren would have cost 12.5 mill.

 

They haven't a lot of money on an AAV basis, so i really don't see the connection here.

 

To this post and to Divinity's.

 

Based on the money they've spent this offseason and what they still have to spend (according to reports), they could have afforded to spend 35 million dollars on those two players.

[Dipre]

To this post and to Divinity's.

 

Based on the money they've spent this offseason and what they still have to spend (according to reports), they could have afforded to spend 35 million dollars on those two players.

 

Then how do you get a Catcher, 4th OF and two setup men (assuming they traded Joba)?

[yankees228]

Then how do you get a Catcher' date=' 4th OF and two setup men (assuming they traded Joba)?[/quote']

 

Those are areas in which the Yankees can fill by promoting from within (like most other teams do). Granted, they didn't have to do this after missing out on their targets, but they could have lived with other alternatives filling those holes, especially with such a strong starting rotation.

[Dipre]

Those are areas in which the Yankees can fill by promoting from within (like most other teams do). Granted' date=' they didn't have to do this after missing out on their targets, but they could have lived with other alternatives filling those holes, especially with such a strong starting rotation.[/quote']

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I see Haren's cost in prospects and money to be prohibitive towards acquiring Lee and the overall long-term offseason plan the Yankees probably had in place.

 

Not worth it, IMO.

[diony]

Those are areas in which the Yankees can fill by promoting from within (like most other teams do). Granted' date=' they didn't have to do this after missing out on their targets, but they could have lived with other alternatives filling those holes, especially with such a strong starting rotation.[/quote']

 

Agree. But they could've afforded Haren and Lee. But that would probably mean no Feliciano, Soriano, Martin and Jones. I'd rather had Lee and Nova with that bunch, than just Haren and Lee. Plus we're forgetting they had to resign Jeter and Mo to ridiculous contracts.

[yankees228]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I see Haren's cost in prospects and money to be prohibitive towards acquiring Lee and the overall long-term offseason plan the Yankees probably had in place.

 

Not worth it, IMO.

 

@ Dipre and Diony

 

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree on whether or not it would have been worth it, and we've both laid out our arguments so there's no sense in continuing. But it was certainly feasible.

[BSN07]

Just my .02 but I don't see how Haren would have handicapped the Yankees from getting Lee. He makes 12.75M a year. That's about average for a Yankee player. Cashman just said he never has a problem going to ownership for more money. If they Lee wanted to be in NY, the Yankees would have signed him regardless of Haren and his salary being on the team.

[Palodios]

Are we really arguing that the Yankees wouldn't have enough money?

[Divinity]

Brian Cashman mentioned a few things at WFAN’s annual “Breakfast with a Champion” this morning.

 

Cashman said he’ll be surprised if Derek Jeter sticks at shortstop during all four years of his contract. He sees the Captain winding up in the outfield.

 

Cashman acknowledged that Joba Chamberlain has not been the same since his injury in Texas in 2008. It’s the first time anyone involved with the team has publicly discussed the issue even though it was quite obvious. Once again, he said there’s no chance Joba will start.

 

Still nothing new on Andy Pettitte, but Cashman did confirm that the lefty is working out to remain in baseball shape. Cash said his best case rotation scenario at this point has Andy coming back and Ivan Nova sliding down into the fifth starter’s spot.

 

Jorge Posada is the full-time designated hitter, and the starting catcher’s job will be an open competition in Spring Training

[Palodios]

So Pettite is working out? That's a surprising development.