Yankees 2010-2011 Hotstove Thread

[redsoxrules]

The Texas Rangers have conceded that they probably cannot outbid the Yankees for Cliff Lee, but they may not need to. Because there is no state income tax in Texas, the Rangers could effectively match the Yankees' offer without actually matching it.

 

Mr. Lee, the top free-agent pitcher on the market, was mulling offers from both teams Friday. And while the tax issue might not be foremost on his mind, it's at least worth considering.

 

The total value of the Yankees' latest, seven-year contract offer wasn't disclosed, nor were the details of the "menu" of offers the Rangers presented Mr. Lee on Thursday. So we used the Yankees' initial offer of roughly $140 million over six years to assess the impact of the tax laws.

 

Victor Barbo is the president and CEO of ProSportsTax, a division of a Manhattan, Kansas-based accounting firm whose clients include professional athletes. Mr. Barbo said that, assuming Mr. Lee changed his residency to New York state, he would be subject to an effective state tax rate of 8.7%.

 

After state, federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes, he said the net value of a $140 million, six-year contract with the Yankees would be roughly $83.3 million. But if Mr. Lee signed the same contract with the Rangers and moved to Texas, it would be worth around $91.2 million.

 

According to Mr. Barbo, a $127.8 million offer from Texas would be roughly the equivalent of a $140 million offer from the Yankees. That's assuming an extension of current tax rates.

 

If he signed with the Yankees and moved to New Jersey or Connecticut, Mr. Barbo said it would not substantially alter the value of the contract. And since Mr. Lee is an Arkansas native who spent part of this week hunting for deer, we'll just skip the question of how New York City residency would impact the deal.

 

Mr. Barbo said his calculations accounted for laws in certain states that require visiting athletes to pay state income tax for each game they play there, also known as jock taxes.

 

In New York, such taxes would simply be deducted from what Mr. Lee owed the state, he said. In Texas, if Mr. Lee signed a $140 million deal, Mr. Barbo estimated he would pay $483,700 in jock taxes.

 

There is one financial advantage to playing in New York: more endorsement dollars.

 

Bob Dorfman, a sports marketing analyst and creative director with Baker Street Advertising in San Francisco, estimated Mr. Lee could earn an additional $1 million to $2 million per year by choosing New York over Texas.

 

"The Yankees are the best-known brand in baseball," he said. "That does give you some cache, and it gives you an opportunity to get a lot more in endorsement opportunities

[Dipre]

How many rings does he have? There is definitely a point where you're hurting your future team by stalling on negotiations. So far' date=' he hasn't hurt the Yankees too much, but if he waits until mostly everyone has signed, it will hurt him in the long run.[/quote']

 

How does this make any sense? You don't know if the Yankees are his future team (although they probably are).

 

How do you know he's not stalling because he wants to stay in Texas? Or how do you know if there is another team that's in the bidding and he's interested?

 

In the end, it's all about what's best for him, and the team that signs him doesn't have to wait for him before proceeding forward.

 

The Yankees already signed Jeter and Mariano, and their roster is basically set, meaning the whole "he's hurting the Yankees" argument is moot, their off-season would be all but done if they sign him. What is he stopping them from doing, specially now that Crawford signed?

 

The whining about him not signing doesn't hold any water, not to mention that, again, it's about what's best for him and his family.

 

And even worse, it's December 10th. We're just done with the Winter Meetings.

 

My God.

[Palodios]

The Yankees already signed Jeter and Mariano' date=' and their roster is basically set, meaning the whole "he's hurting the Yankees" argument is moot, their off-season would be all but done if they sign him. What is he stopping them from doing, specially now that Crawford signed?[/quote']

 

Really? Was that seriously worth a half page rant? As I said he HASN'T hurt the Yankees yet. But the Ranger's entire management group flew all the way out to Arkansas before the Winter Meetings were even over, and so many of the executives from those two teams have been focused on him rather than worrying about other holes they need to fill. I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to wait for the best deal, I'm saying that he does need to respect the team he's going to.

[Dipre]

Really? Was that seriously worth a half page rant? As I said he HASN'T hurt the Yankees yet. But the Ranger's entire management group flew all the way out to Arkansas before the Winter Meetings were even over' date=' and so many of the executives from those two teams have been focused on him rather than worrying about other holes they need to fill. I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to wait for the best deal, I'm saying that he does need to respect the team he's going to.[/quote']

 

And how is waiting for the best offer disrespectful?

 

It still doesn't make sense. Teams can (and have) filled out their roster to some extent while waiting for Lee.

 

The Yanks re-signed their other players, their roster is all but set, and are sitting on him.

 

The Rangers have made several moves, acquiring a catcher and keeping in touch (and even offering contracts) to some other players like Vlad.

 

Their other suitor, the Nationals, already shelled out a massive contract to Jayson Werth and are in contact with other Free Agents besides Lee.

 

Waiting doesn't hurt the team that signs him at all. It's a decision that will affect him and his family for years, so he can take as much time as he wants.

[italstallianion]

Really? Was that seriously worth a half page rant? As I said he HASN'T hurt the Yankees yet. But the Ranger's entire management group flew all the way out to Arkansas before the Winter Meetings were even over' date=' and so many of the executives from those two teams have been focused on him rather than worrying about other holes they need to fill. I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to wait for the best deal, I'm saying that he does need to respect the team he's going to.[/quote']

 

 

I think the Yankees have enough money to be able to sign all of their other guys in the event that Lee takes too long to make a decision. I only think it's disrespectful if he deliberately wastes time when he's already made his decision, especially when he's doing it just to f*** the team he's not signing with, but I don't think there's anything disrespectful about taking your time and thinking everything through before making a decision, especially since we're not even at the middle of December yet.

[Palodios]

Texas management has flown to Arkansas three times this offseason. They asked him how much money it will take, and he didn't answer them. The Yankees may have the money to sign whoever they want, but the Rangers do not, how much they budget for other holes depends on where Lee goes. As stated, it isn't unreasonable... yet.

[Dipre]

The Rangers already signed a catcher, a reliever, and extended offers to Vlad Guerrero and a couple other players. So much for not being able to make their moves without Lee.

 

Also, they flew to Arkansas to present their contractual offers to Lee, but the Yankees keep upping the ante. So what should he do? Leave more years and money on the table just so he doesn't "disrespect anyone".

 

Come on now, that's not how negotiations work.

[italstallianion]

Plus it's not like Texas is that far from Arkansas, and Arkansas is a fly over state anyway.

[Palodios]

The Rangers already signed a catcher, a reliever, and extended offers to Vlad Guerrero and a couple other players. So much for not being able to make their moves without Lee.

 

Also, they flew to Arkansas to present their contractual offers to Lee, but the Yankees keep upping the ante. So what should he do? Leave more years and money on the table just so he doesn't "disrespect anyone".

 

Come on now, that's not how negotiations work.

 

Its not like he's going to get anything but max offers at this point, and he needs time to make a decision. But the Rangers aren't exactly done yet, are they? It affects moves, not necessarily a lot, but it does make a difference. Especially when major executives keep having to make visits to see Cliff Lee instead of dealing with other matters.

[Meh]

Its not like he's going to get anything but max offers at this point' date=' and he needs time to make a decision. But the Rangers aren't exactly done yet, are they? It affects moves, not necessarily a lot, but it does make a difference. Especially when major executives keep having to make visits to see Cliff Lee instead of dealing with other matters.[/quote']

 

I may of had differences with this guy, maybe cause it's due to the face he has Tony Almeida as his avatar, but I can respect Red Sox fans and this guy does know his stuff. Cliff Lee is basically the centerpiece to both the Yankees and Rangers. Any fool would tell you that, I mean he's the crown jewel of the off season. If he continues to wait other SP options dry up, Wang might be signed, Garza might be traded, etc The point is if he continues to wait options dry up, also the Yankees are hesitent to offer Wood a deal and perhaps others until Lee signs. Wood might be gone by then as well as other RP options and then they are screwed.

[Dipre]

Absolute ********.

 

Both the Yankees and Rangers have continued with their normal off-season schedule signing some players and extending contracts to others. Any GM who can't fill the holes on his roster waiting for one guy should be fired.

 

Not to mention that because Lee is the jewel of the pitching market, and two teams are bidding aggressively for him, and keep upping their offers, he's not going to sign until he gets the max offer teams will extend him.

 

And it makes complete and total sense, because initially, neither Yankees nor Rangers wanted to go to 7 years, and they're already there. I'm sorry, but that's how negotiations work. You're just pissed 'cause "You want him and you want him now".

 

Even worse, it's December 10th, and most FA's are still out there.

 

Make an argument with more holes plz.

[Palodios]

I may of had differences with this guy' date=' maybe cause it's due to the face he has Tony Almeida as his avatar, but I can respect Red Sox fans and this guy does know his stuff. [/quote']

 

We've had differences?

[Meh]

OF course it was what 7 or 8 months ago but I remember we butted heads once.

[jacksonianmarch]

I wouldnt be surprised if we are going after Martin with some trade plan for Montero. Maybe the Yanks plan on getting Lee, then dealing for Greinke. Who knows, but it rings odd to go after a guy like Martin with Posada and Montero around

[Keeper]

It would be foolish to trade Montero, IMO. Unless you think he's going to be a bust. In which case, sure, sell high.

[jacksonianmarch]

I completely agree. I think Montero is going to be one of the best hitters in the league in his prime. It would be incredibly foolish to deal him now. But how else do you spin this to Martin to get him to come here? If Montero gets off to a hot start and is at least passable behind the dish, then Martin isnt useful. And with Eeyore at DH, there isnt a spot for the kid.

[Palodios]

I was under the assumption the Yankees were just in the Martin sweepstakes to annoy the Sox? Don't they already have three catchers in their organization?

[Meh]

They tried to trade for him so obviously they want him.

[Keeper]

I completely agree. I think Montero is going to be one of the best hitters in the league in his prime. It would be incredibly foolish to deal him now. But how else do you spin this to Martin to get him to come here? If Montero gets off to a hot start and is at least passable behind the dish' date=' then Martin isnt useful.[/b'] And with Eeyore at DH, there isnt a spot for the kid.

 

Exactly. I wouldn't go after Martin. I also think Montero's bat will be special. Posada has 1 year left on his contract. The Yankees will probably let him walk. You don't have to have a great catcher to win a WS. You guys have proven that over and over again. I would live with whatever Montero gives me for a year and then go from there. If he is passable, maybe you keep him there. If not, you move him to DH and get a catcher next offseason, or bring up Romine.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yankee officials are pessimistic on Lee according to Heyman. Well, he's been wrong all offseason, so I think he'll be here, lol. Regardless, I think the Russell Martin negotiations are taking new meaning now. If Lee played us to get 6-7 yrs from Texas, then

We might have to go looking for another ace, and Montero would be a he'll of a catch

[Cocos Disciples]

Jacko, thoughts on Greinke if you don't land Lee?

[jacksonianmarch]

I would be nervous as hell about the asking price, but he is a prime talent. There are two ways to view it

 

The good: He has two yrs left on his contract at reasonable dollars, so if he bombs out, the committment to him isnt bad. Also, if he gets off to a strong start, then the concern will be minimized.

 

The bad: And potentially horrible is the fact that we'd either gut our deep pitching farm or deal away a generational prospect talent in Montero to get him, and if he becomes a nutcase, then we'd get nothing for it.

 

It isnt a bad contingency plan, but if it costs us Montero, then no dice

[ORS]

Joe Mauer, Brian McCann, Matt Wieters, Buster Posey......all in the same generation, and they can catch. Let's lighten up on the Montero hyperbole. Very good prospect, yes, excellent even. Generational, ie once every 20/30 years, is a bit much.

[jacksonianmarch]

I meant generational for an organization. He's the best "prospect" since Jeter

[Meh]

I'm not on the Grienke train at all. Considering what's supposed to be the asking price.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Lol! It's the Yankees. Money is the last thing you would worry about.

[Palodios]

I'd assume he's talking about prospects.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lol! It's the Yankees. Money is the last thing you would worry about.

 

It's not the money. It's the prospects.

[CoachC.]

Based on gut, not reporting, I think Lee camp has used time expertly to discomfort #Yankees, get edgy to 1 last time up offer, seal deal

 

 

I'll ask it again, will Yankees go 7/175? They did offer 25 mil AAV on the 5 year offer.

 

That would also give him a bigger contract than CC. Not sure how he would feel about that.

[Palodios]

I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up yet-- but how do you think Cliff feels about being #2 to CC?