That Game was a preview of what's to come with no Gonzo..

[JimEdHOF2009]

Ortiz is a DONE. He is a has been who can only run into mistakes from "mediocre" pitchers.. it is honestly embarrassing to see him batting 5th on a team with a $150 million payroll. This team will be lucky to win 85 games with Big Pop-Up clogging up the middle of the order. Two hitters in front of Ortiz have OBP's over .400 and he has 2 RBI's. Varitek has triple the HR's and started two or three games.. Yes, it is early...but honestly, when is the last time Ortiz got a big hit off a quality pitcher? He is finished and the sooner we get rid of him..the better. Gonzalez can be had.. look at SD's pitching staff! Their pitching prospects are a joke! They would KILL for Clay Buchholz...Casey Kelley... Gonzalez needs to be brought here now. I can deal with teams stealing all day on VicMart if we have Gonzalez driving in runs.. but this team cannot afford to have his gaping hole smack-dab in the middle of the lineup.

 

Tonight was a PERFECT example of why Ortiz has to go.. Tampa GIFTWRAPPED the game for the Sox and Papi does what?? A feeble grounder.. he is a trainwreck.. What's worse than his batting average .154..is his frame of mind.. He will not recover.. Theo needs to make the move before the gap between us and the Yankees is unsurmountable.

[TheMino007]

Quoted for truth

[bsox0407]

10 games have been played.

[jacksonianmarch]

Reactionary post #2

[TedWilliams101]

Yeah, it's WAY to early. However, they need to start giving Ortiz more games off and drop him in the lineup when he plays. If he hasn't gotten it going by the end of the month, send him to the minors and explore trading options. I think a big bat may very well be necessary.

[jacksonianmarch]

he cannot go to the minors without his permission and nobody would trade for him. Gammons hit the nail on the head. If Papi continues to suck, you really have to release him

[TedWilliams101]

he cannot go to the minors without his permission and nobody would trade for him. Gammons hit the nail on the head. If Papi continues to suck' date=' you really have to release him[/quote']

 

If it were me, I'd tell him "we aren't releasing you, but you won't get any playing time. You either ride the bench or go down to the minors and figure it out." I'm sorry, but anyone making over $1 million a year (and for him WELL over that) doesn't have any right to bitch about having to be "demoted" to the minors.

[jacksonianmarch]

but Gammons point is that putting him on the bench wont help the team in any way, shape or form, and he isnt about to accept a demotion. The easiest was for this to end is a release

[TedWilliams101]

but Gammons point is that putting him on the bench wont help the team in any way' date=' shape or form, and he isnt about to accept a demotion. The easiest was for this to end is a release[/quote']

 

I know, I realize it won't happen. It's just this attitude that pisses the living crap out of me. These guys are getting paid ridiculous sums of money to play a freaking game. You would think that when they are sucking, they would do what the team want's from them. They have to realize they are being employed to do a job.

 

Right now I'm employed as a cook and if I were to start sucking and screwing everything up, they would expect me to move back to prep until I got things together and I would agree with them. It's unbelievable that people getting paid 500X what I get can be so disrespectful towards their employer.

 

The other thing you have to realize is that a demotion in sports is NOT like a demotion in any other field. Demotion almost always means getting less money in any other job, that isn't the case for these guys. They still get paid their money, no matter how s***** they perform. They are simply playing at a lower level to try to get back on track, it shouldn't be a big deal. It's all Ego, and I have nothing but GFY for it.

[jacksonianmarch]

It may or may not be disrespect, but it is in their contracts. Also, I wouldnt agree to get sent down either. Why? Because once you go down, there is no limit to how long they can keep you there. They can let you rot in Pawtucket for the whole yr. For a big league player, that's a lot to swallow

[bsox0407]

I think i would go to the minors. At least i would be playing rather than have no team or rotting on the bench.

[jacksonianmarch]

The point is, you can get a release and stay in the bigs, which every player wants to do. Anyone want to go from the high life to riding a bus?

[TedWilliams101]

It may or may not be disrespect' date=' but it is in their contracts. Also, I wouldnt agree to get sent down either. Why? Because once you go down, there is no limit to how long they can keep you there. They can let you rot in Pawtucket for the whole yr. For a big league player, that's a lot to swallow[/quote']

 

Ego. They are getting employed to do a job. They don't get the job done, they shouldn't have a right to be upset. Again, "a lot to swallow" just sounds like Ego, like these guys are a bunch of prima dona's. Ask a professional poker player how far Ego will get you, it will likely get you broke.

 

I understand where Ortiz is coming from, not wanting to go down to the minors, but he should be more concerned with the fact that his employers are giving him $15 million and he isn't giving them ANYTHING. He should feel obligated to do what they ask to try to give some production.

[MNSoxChief102]

10 games have been played.

 

Exactly. I wasn't exactly thrilled with Ortiz and Lowell's approach during that inning, but it doesn't necessarily mean this team is finished unless we dump every good prospect we have in the system to Jed Hoyer to get Adrian Gonzalez.

 

Ortiz has had several solid swings throughout tonight's games and I think that he'll come around much like he did last season. I don't think they should wait that long before addressing the issue, but trading away the farm isn't the answer either.

[YeAuldBroade]

th People put so much effort into overreacting. I wish there was some way to capture all this wasted energy - fuel crisis > solved. Oh and JimEd.. it was Beltre that hit into the double play that killed the inning. And then it was Cameron that committed the error in inning one of tonight's scheduled game.

 

Seriously.. anyone that thinks ONE player makes or breaks a team .... and I won't finish that sentence because I like posting here.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

I hate this "hurr it's only been 2 weeks, X amount of games, you all are overreacting" crap. People are generally concerned. I'm concerned. I've seen this team go through slumps and all that s*** in the past, but the way this team has looked is abysmal. Of course it can turn around. But the defense has been sloppy, the offense anemic, and the bullpen has looked terrible. They had a month of spring training games to get their defense together, get their timing, all that. Of course people are going to be concerned about David Ortiz. It took him until June to get started last year. But this isn't last year. This is not the same offense. For this offense to work most of it must be working in unison. The big thing about this team is run prevention. Run prevention does not work when people are playing shoddy defense and pitchers are getting hard hit.

[YeAuldBroade]

Hate it all you want BigPapiEnFuego but you are over reacting and it's too early in the season to discuss making wholesale changes. This team doesn't look any worse than last April. The Defense has been abysmal but like hitting slumps, defensive slumps can be contagious. These guys didn't forget how to play defense just because they put on Red, it will improve. There has been up and down pitching (the biggest concern before the season and still is the bullpen) but if you look at tonight's game - Sox pitching has only given up one earned run against a damned good team.

 

You guys are going to give yourselves strokes - and then you'll look pretty stupid in June trying to cheer for the .600 team around your breathing tubes. Lighten up, you'll live longer and enjoy it more.

 

Question for the masses... how many of you pushing the panic button have been fans only since 2004 and/or are under 25?

 

... and if this team is only playing .500 ball in a month, then we can be concerned and you can damn well guarantee Epstein will be trading a kidney to improve the team

[yeszir]

You guys are going to give yourselves strokes - and then you'll look pretty stupid in June trying to cheer for the .600 team around your breathing tubes.

 

:lol: You're rational and I like you.

[YeAuldBroade]

Thanks yeszir and right back atcha...

 

Guys, Epstein isn't going to allow this team to stand pat if they continue to play like this for another month. On paper this is a good team, so far they are not living up to their potential. You do not make drastic changes to a team after 10 games because of slumps. You also don't take veterans out of the lineup without giving them a chance to get their s*** together - if you do then you destroy morale and end up with a team of slumpers out of sheer nerves. You probably also blow your chance at a good season by a veteran that just had a slow start. And you end up spending the rest of the season chasing your ass with both hands trying to find enough guys not slumping to fill a line-up. Ball players are headcases and good managers know how to work with that.

 

There's a reason no fan has ever been promoted to manager, it's because GM's aren't retarded. It's a long season and there are going to be awesome streaks and hideous slumps. We'll all survive.

[Northern Star]

It's only 11 games, but they are 4-7. Can't afford to be carrying a huge hole in the middle of the lineup.

[Spudboy]

I know, I realize it won't happen. It's just this attitude that pisses the living crap out of me. These guys are getting paid ridiculous sums of money to play a freaking game. You would think that when they are sucking, they would do what the team want's from them. They have to realize they are being employed to do a job.

 

Right now I'm employed as a cook and if I were to start sucking and screwing everything up, they would expect me to move back to prep until I got things together and I would agree with them. It's unbelievable that people getting paid 500X what I get can be so disrespectful towards their employer.

 

The other thing you have to realize is that a demotion in sports is NOT like a demotion in any other field. Demotion almost always means getting less money in any other job, that isn't the case for these guys. They still get paid their money, no matter how s***** they perform. They are simply playing at a lower level to try to get back on track, it shouldn't be a big deal. It's all Ego, and I have nothing but GFY for it.

 

Unfortunately, you live (and work) in the real world. Your morals and ethics don't apply.

[Jasonbay44]

So, just to recap everything with threads made so far.

-Vmart sucks

-Drew sucks

-Francona should be fired

-Bullpen is horrible

-This team cant win without Adrian Gonzalez.

 

Wonderful.

[Dipre]

Reactionary threads. Love them.

[SoxSport]

Ortiz done? Well, that's easy to say. But not so easy for Tito and the organization to swallow. It takes a long time for winning to override loyalty in this organization--at least it seems that way. I find that disturbing.

[TedWilliams101]

Winning over loyalty.... Are you following the same team I am? Jeez.

 

It's been 11 games. 11. Ortiz was the hottest hitter in baseball from July on last year. We have to give him a chance to get it together by May. This isn't a matter of Loyalty, it's a matter of trying to get production from someone and not walking away too early.

[a700hitter]

If the team does not lose faith in Ortiz and cut him,he will lead this team in HRs and RBI by the end of the season. As for Gonzo, who on god's green earth do we have that we could use to get him?

[TheKilo]

This team just is not fun to watch, at all. The halmark of bad teams is that when they pitch, they don't hit and when they hot, they don't pitch.

 

I hesitate to overreact, but BPEF made an excellent point of how if run prevention is going to work as a strategy for team building, all the parts need to be working together. Have not seen that yet.

 

I wonder if Theo really believes in run prevention. Bill James once said that defense accounts for less than 10% of a team's value. I wonder what changed? Not saying their methods could not have found something new, but I'd like to know what it is.

 

And to those who are so sure Epstein will go out and improve the team, remember 2006 and his "price of milk" speech. Keep in mind this was supposed to be the bridge year. I do not expect anything major from Epstein at any point. Those pining for Gonzalez are going to be disappointed, IMO.

[a700hitter]

And to those who are so sure Epstein will go out and improve the team' date=' remember 2006 and his "price of milk" speech. Keep in mind this was supposed to be the bridge year. I do not expect anything major from Epstein at any point. Those pining for Gonzalez are going to be disappointed, IMO.[/quote']What is on the other side of that bridge that is so great?

[TheKilo]

Reddick, Kalish, Kelly, Lin, etc.

 

Ortiz, Lowell, etc. off the payroll.

[Gom]

It's amazing how drugs made a career. Meteoric rise, catastrophic fall.

 

The anguish of Red Sox fans sustains me.