Report: Manny and Ortiz tested positive in '03

[Taliesin]

To interrupt this Red Herring argument w/ actual fish. nor do I have the time to wade through 11 pages of b.s. Has anyone, throughout which I am sure is intelligent discourse (cough) mentioned the fact that this "leak" of supposedly anonymous testing was done under the purview of an owning authority of a company being held hostage by a group of thugs hiding under the union label.

 

This was a big f*** You from them to us. IMHO.

[SCM33]

The thing that is bothering me most about this whole thing, is the manner in which they are being leaked, almost like it has been planned.

 

First they nail the Yankees and Mets, since NY is the biggest baseball market in the county.

 

Now its Boston, with Manny and Ortiz. Next it will be someone like Varitek.....to even out the score between the two markets. Then they will release Damons name, a player whos played in both markets. It is almost as if they are releasing the names with an intent plan.

[Dipre]

Well' date=' we'll find out. You will be shocked obviously, and I wont.[/quote']

 

Obviously by using the slight semblance of rationale i have left i have come to this conclusion:

 

Less than 1% of ML Players from 1985 to now, are clean.

 

Griffey, Pujols and Jeter (as much as i hate him) are the only ones i truly believe (not hope) are clean.

 

Those three would surprise me, everyone else is fair game.

[SCM33]

Obviously by using the slight semblance of rationale i have left i have come to these conclusion:

 

Less than 1% of ML Players from 1985 to now, are clean.

 

Griffey, Pujols and Jeter (as much as i hate him) are the only ones i truly believe (not hope) are clean.

 

Those three would surprise me, everyone else is fair game.

 

I wouldnt mind if Jeter is on the list, but have to believe if he were on the list, his name would have been released already since he is a pretty significant player, and many Yankees have already been released.

 

Im pretty sure Griffey didnt use. I think most people think that way.

 

I pray Pujols didnt use them, I pray he is the guy who cleans up the record books, I just have a funny feeling about him, and (no offense) any of the dominican players who have for years hidden their real ages and have had access to more s*** that they could not have had access to here in the US. I want him to be clean, I want him to be the hero, but I wont be shocked if he isnt.

[TedWilliams101]

Obviously by using the slight semblance of rationale i have left i have come to this conclusion:

 

Less than 1% of ML Players from 1985 to now, are clean.

 

Griffey, Pujols and Jeter (as much as i hate him) are the only ones i truly believe (not hope) are clean.

 

Those three would surprise me, everyone else is fair game.

 

Why even bother believing those guys are clean. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Pujols juiced. NO ONE would surprise me. I don't put it past anyone. It's the era. I really don't even care at this point. It makes no difference to me. I suspect everyone did. It was a level playing field, no one got any advantages over the other because they were all juicing. The hitters, the pitchers, everyone.

 

Of course there were probably some clean guys as well, but they were likely the VAST minority. So I don't see everyone's stats as being "tainted", I just look at is as the steroid era, just like the dead ball era, or any other. It is what it is.

[TedWilliams101]

I wouldnt mind if Jeter is on the list, but have to believe if he were on the list, his name would have been released already since he is a pretty significant player, and many Yankees have already been released.

 

Im pretty sure Griffey didnt use. I think most people think that way.

 

I pray Pujols didnt use them, I pray he is the guy who cleans up the record books, I just have a funny feeling about him, and (no offense) any of the dominican players who have for years hidden their real ages and have had access to more s*** that they could not have had access to here in the US. I want him to be clean, I want him to be the hero, but I wont be shocked if he isnt.

 

There is your problem. No one is perfect, even Hero's. He's a guy making a living playing baseball, he isn't out saving people from burning fires. Calling these guys hero's is a bit extreme. Even "real" hero's aren't perfect. But does it really matter?

[SCM33]

There is your problem. No one is perfect' date=' even Hero's. He's a guy making a living playing baseball, he isn't out saving people from burning fires. Calling these guys hero's is a bit extreme. Even "real" hero's aren't perfect. But does it really matter?[/quote']

 

Yeah, I still collect baseball cards and hang posters all over my walls. You know what I meant.

[Dipre]

I wouldnt mind if Jeter is on the list, but have to believe if he were on the list, his name would have been released already since he is a pretty significant player, and many Yankees have already been released.

 

Im pretty sure Griffey didnt use. I think most people think that way.

 

I pray Pujols didnt use them, I pray he is the guy who cleans up the record books, I just have a funny feeling about him, and (no offense) any of the dominican players who have for years hidden their real ages and have had access to more s*** that they could not have had access to here in the US. I want him to be clean, I want him to be the hero, but I wont be shocked if he isnt.

 

Pujols migrated to the States pretty young.

 

He learned to play baseball in the states, and didn't even play in any programs here.

[TedWilliams101]

Canseco says that there is at least 1 HOFer who was on the juice. I can't wait to see that blow up in MLB's face.

[SCM33]

Canseco says that there is at least 1 HOFer who was on the juice. I can't wait to see that blow up in MLB's face.

 

Have to assume it is Rickey Henderson?

 

HOF list year by year here:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/mlb_history_halloffame.jsp

 

 

Actually, I think Canseco played briefly with Nolan Ryan as well, that would be devastating.

[26 to 6]

Canseco says that there is at least 1 HOFer who was on the juice. I can't wait to see that blow up in MLB's face.

I wouldn't be shocked if it was either Henderson or Boggs.

[Youk Of The Nation]

You'd be shocked at Boggs?

 

 

The only guys I wouldn't be shocked at are Wakefield, Moyer, and Casey Fossum. You don't juice to throw a 45MPH fastball.

[yankeessuck013]

Troll

 

Ban him!

[yankeessuck013]

Ban you for making your first post on this site a joke. On your logic I guess we can call your 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000 titles tainted as well. Stop being stupid.

[Dipre]

Where is the logic in that? A Rod didn't join the team until 2004. Even Roger Clemens name wasn't on the list of 104 players.

 

You, sir, are a troll.

 

No ifs or buts about it.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Yeah, you had about three posts to ingratiate yourself to the members here. You wasted all of them on being...well, you. Maybe you should look into not doing that next time you join a message board. When you do, it won't be this one, however.

 

Have a nice life, jackbag.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

ah Jacoby. How does the crow taste. To be honest with you' date=' Jacoby and a700 were the biggest flamers per se after the yankee guys got nabbed for PED use. Crespo, SOTK, and a few others made some joking comments but nothing too bad. Regardless, let this be a pointed reminder that roids were and still are prevalent in the game. No team is safe. Nobody is clean. And nobody should care IMO.[/quote']

Its like you don't even remember that I was one of the few saying Ortiz was likely juiced, and kept getting 'his growth is natural, his progression was perfectly calculated' and who knows what else.

 

 

Crow serving FAIL.

[rician blast]

We have had reason to suspect every one of the names that has come out lately' date=' either by articles from anonymous sources, Canseco's finger-pointing, the Mitchell report, or the unofficial list[/quote']

 

Hmmm...if that list truly is accurate, then it confirms a bunch of the guys I suspected...and I, like many others, suspected these guys based on stats and our eyes and in some cases our own experience/understanding of the prevalence of performance enhancing drugs.

 

I didn't rely on Canseco or Mitchell the unofficial list or anonymous sources. But it appears that, if the list is correct, many of us were incredibly in tune with who was using. That said, while there may not be absolute proof on guys like Pujols, it is very naive to toe the line that suspicion is out of bounds without proof.

 

As an example, I think Pujols used/uses and I've suspected Jeter and Griffey as well. Do I have proof? No, but since it appears that my previous suspicions keep getting confirmed I'm sticking with my gut feeling...if someone is offended, too fkn bad. And for the record, just because a player is NOT caught doesn't mean they didn't use.

[Mr Crunchy]

George Foster hit 52hrs for the Cincinatti Reds in 1977 .

Before that nobody hit 50 since 1965 and that was Willie Fkn Mays and after that it was cecil fielder who hit 50 with detriot in 1990....Matty Williams was giving the HR record a run till the league shut down in the strike of 1994,then Albert Belle hit 50 in 1995 and the steroid stories began.

Brady Anderson hit 50 in 1996 and I knew he was tainted, McGuire followed up with 52hrs in 96,58 in 1997 and then 70 in 1998..Griffey Jr also joined the ranks with 56 in both 97 and 98..We all know about Sosa, th eonly guy who hit 60hrs 3 yrs in a row...All these guys except Griffey have been accused so

why do we absolve Griffey of any kind of cheating?...

Notice the incredible decline in his output after being sent to the Reds?The oft injured Griffey had the same kind of physical decline as all these guys who we accuse of juicing did and we give him a pass because other guys have better #s and didnt have that colgate smile that Griffey had.

Not me, not when he hits 56-56 while he never did it before and cant break 40 for the rest of his career..

The entire 1980s didnt produce a 50HR hitter and suddenly after the strike we have many doing it..

f*** the owners, f*** the players and f*** you fans that care about this for ignoring the obvious.

Thru history we can see men breaking 50HRS every 8-10 years, the 1990s and this decade are the only exceptions to this pattern and it has indeed sullied the most storied records in our beloved game.

Baseball history and its record books are as sacred to us Americans as the constitution is.

We the fans chose to ignore the obvious even when the press was in McGuires locker we didnt want to see the light, we only wanted to see history...Well thats on us as far as im concerned.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_home_run_club

 

I assure you that I give a f*** less than anyone about steroids in the game but I dont like to see people getting away with using Roids while other men are being crucified over it.

Griffey Jr? I think he was a juicer based on math and his decline in health, f*** him and the ballwashers who have absolved him because he didnt break any records, I have no evidence other than the 56 homeruns he hit back to back and the decline of his health when moved to Cincinatti but this isnt a trial and I dont need to prove this to a jury of his peers.

[La mujer bonita]

"We the fans chose to ignore the obvious even when the press was in McGuires locker we didnt want to see the light, we only wanted to see history...Well thats on us as far as im concerned."

 

One thing I do firmly believe is that everybody associated with baseball in any way-the players who used and the union who defended the practice, the league officials and owners who turned a blind eye for the sake of the money train, and the fans who refused to believe what was happening in their own ballparks as records fell and players grew to the size of sequoias-is at fault for this. It's just like the housing crisis-the money was really easy and people on the street were getting what they wanted. Who cared that it was all built on a house of cards, until that house of cards came crashing down and very abruptly and rudely ended the party for all? There is always a heavy price to be paid for excess, folks-it's fun while it lasts but afterwards you're ashamed of yourself. And if the truth be known, the biggest drivers behind all this? The Yankees and Red Sox, setting the bar for exorbitant player salaries.

 

Hell, for $160 million, I might just shoot up myself. I really can't blame anyone for wanting to cash in.

 

f*** you, Bud Selig. f*** you, Don Fehr. And f*** all of us who knew in 1998 that Mark McGwire was more juiced than an East German swimmer and cheered him on anyway.

[a700hitter]

From Sean McAdam's column today.

Perspective is a useful tool, here, too. Like some crime scene investigation, timing is an important part of the equation. While Ortiz and Ramirez failed the provisional test in 2003, Ortiz hasn't failed one since and Ramirez didn't fail one until earlier this spring, by which time he was playing for another team in another league.

There is still no evidence of drugs in the 2004 or 2007 Red Sox club house, which I have maintained all along. Does this give them the moral high ground? No it does not. The only reason why there was no drugs in those clubhouses was because beginning in 2004 there was a testing program with penalties, not because they are good guys.

 

Here's my answer to the Yankee trolls screaming about taints on our Championships. Lol!!! Yeah our cheaters beat your cheaters! That seems fair. Tough Noogies. We still got the banner hanging over the ball park. BTW The Chairman of the Board Whitey Ford was a notorious cheater. Ellie Howard and Yogi used to scuff balls for him on sharpened shin guards. He was known for throwing a mud ball. He used to like to throw a ball that had a clump of dirt on it. Read Jim Bouton's Ball Four. It's all in there. So, those '50's and '60's championships are tainted. Craig Nettles was known to caulk his bat and one time his bat broke and super balls came flying out, so the '70's championships are tainted too. With all that being said, everyone on the 2004 or 2007 Red Sox teams passed their drug tests for those years. So, nice try, but go f*** yourself trolls.

[schillingouttheks]

700... in all honesty, with some of the previous comments you made, I think you're a bit backed into a corner with Ortiz and Manny coming out on the list, lol...

[a700hitter]

700... in all honesty' date=' with some of the previous comments you made, I think you're a bit backed into a corner with Ortiz and Manny coming out on the list, lol...[/quote']I'd like you to be specific. My comments were centered around rebutting presumptions of steroid abuse that were based on patterns of performance. People were opining that Ortiz decline was a result of him coming off the juice. I still take the position that his declining performance is due to aging. This is borne out by the fact that he has been passing his drug tests every year since 2003. I also refuted that his size was a result of steroids. I stand by that. He's a big guy, and he hasn't juiced since 2003 and he's still big. Some guys are just big and have to watch their weight. They don't need any help putting on weight. You should know about that. I did say that I doubted that Manny or Ortiz used in 2004 because they looked like a couple of roley poleys in the clubhouse shots. The evidence is that both passed their drug testing in 2004. So, clarify for me how I am backed into a corner.

[Spudboy]

I'd like you to be specific. My comments were centered around rebutting presumptions of steroid abuse that were based on patterns of performance. People were opining that Ortiz decline was a result of him coming off the juice. I still take the position that his declining performance is due to aging. This is borne out by the fact that he has been passing his drug tests every year since 2003. I also refuted that his size was a result of steroids. I stand by that. He's a big guy' date=' and he hasn't juiced since 2003 and he's still big. [b']Some guys are just big and have to watch their weight. They don't need any help putting on weight. You should know about that.[/b] I did say that I doubted that Manny or Ortiz used in 2004 because they looked like a couple of roley poleys in the clubhouse shots. The evidence is that both passed their drug testing in 2004. So, clarify for me how I am backed into a corner.

 

I find your observations interesting. But ouch. That was not necessary.

[a700hitter]

I find your observations interesting. But ouch. That was not necessary.

schillingouttheks has mentioned his size several times throughout the years. I was not taking a shot at him. I just knew that he could relate to what I was saying.

[Spudboy]

schillingouttheks has mentioned his size several times throughout the years. I was not taking a shot at him. I just knew that he could relate to what I was saying.

 

Oh. I was not aware of that.

[a700hitter]

I have to say that it doesn't take much for the Boston Press to show their true colors. They are always looking for an opportunity to tear some one up. This one was served up on a silver platter for them. I read the papers today, and you would think that Ortiz kills babies. Is it any wonder why TeddyBallGame hated them so passionately or that Rice wouldn't give them the time of day. Even Yaz had to endure many years of their s*** until he outlasted most of them and it got to the point where it would have looked like elder abuse if they kept picking on him. To this day, you can tell from his comments that Shaughnessy (the biggest fraud of all with his manufactured Curse of the Bambino Malarkey) still resents Rice and would love to tear him up.

[a700hitter]

Oh. I was not aware of that.

I like schillingouttheks. I would never take a cheap shot at him. If it came out wrong. I apoligize to him. I can relate to the statement myself as I don't need help gaining weight. The next time I'll just speak for myself.

[schillingouttheks]

Haha, absolutely no offense taken. I knew what you meant.

 

Cheaters! Their championship banners should have syringes embroidered on them.

 

I see a new slogan for the '96, '98-2000 Champs: "Champion Cheaters of the Steroid Era." The fans can be proud. Give the team a monument for Monument Park.

 

As for Clemens not being a major part of your 98-2000 run' date=' that is revisionist history for sure. Maybe they'll preserve the Yankee clubhouse/crack den as a historical reminder of this sordid time in Baseball history.[/quote']

 

For what it's worth, I don't really care, I'm just saying that some of what you have said could now be applied to the Red Sox situation. If I took them a bit out of context and my memory is somewhat off, I apologize. I think I was referring more to the part where shots at the Yankees were taken about their players before news of ours came out.

[Dipre]

Hmmm...if that list truly is accurate, then it confirms a bunch of the guys I suspected...and I, like many others, suspected these guys based on stats and our eyes and in some cases our own experience/understanding of the prevalence of performance enhancing drugs.

 

I didn't rely on Canseco or Mitchell the unofficial list or anonymous sources. But it appears that, if the list is correct, many of us were incredibly in tune with who was using. That said, while there may not be absolute proof on guys like Pujols, it is very naive to toe the line that suspicion is out of bounds without proof.

 

As an example, I think Pujols used/uses and I've suspected Jeter and Griffey as well. Do I have proof? No, but since it appears that my previous suspicions keep getting confirmed I'm sticking with my gut feeling...if someone is offended, too fkn bad. And for the record, just because a player is NOT caught doesn't mean they didn't use.

 

So if they didn't use, but you have a gut feeling, let's color them guilty?

 

Awesome use of logic.