ARod tested positive

[MANNYHOF24]

everybody is a suspected roid user. I have said before that I didnt think Arod used' date=' but I wouldnt be surprised. I have a few former teammates who at least made a MLB debut. And it is RAMPANT. And it still is. We'll find out in 2012 what they're taking this yr. Nobody is clean IMO.[/quote']

 

Nobody is clean? That's quite the overstatement. I wouldnt be suprised if it was like 50-60% or some outrageous like that. I guess here is my question, if everyone is doing it where is the competative advantege?

[YANKEESRULE]

The thing is he tested in '03 and was a Texas Ranger. The test was kept confidential so the yankees had no idea about the results. now he comes over in '04 when the tests are mandatory. Even if he was warned ahead of time he would still test positive because this s*** stays in your system for a long time. He didn't, as long as he's been clean with New York that's all I care about. Look this is the time we live in and PED's were rampant and very popular, no one is innocent wether they took them or not, just the way things were then.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Even if he was warned ahead of time he would still test positive because this s*** stays in your system for a long time.

 

I don't know Einstein, maybe he was warned far enough in advance???

[Keeper]

Look this is the time we live in and PED's were rampant and very popular' date=' [b']no one is innocent wether they took them or not[/b], just the way things were then.

 

That makes no sense. This is an absurd rationalization. Don't be an apologist for cheaters.

[THE ARS]

The thing is he tested in '03 and was a Texas Ranger. The test was kept confidential so the yankees had no idea about the results. now he comes over in '04 when the tests are mandatory. Even if he was warned ahead of time he would still test positive because this s*** stays in your system for a long time. He didn't' date=' as long as he's been clean with New York that's all I care about. Look this is the time we live in and PED's were rampant and very popular, no one is innocent wether they took them or not, just the way things were then.[/quote']

 

You're wrong. He tested positive because he did not know he would be tested. If he knew, he would have done what he is doing now, using something that can't be found in a urine sample.

 

This information is readily available on the internet.

 

Tough read, I know.

 

But you could use a little reading.

 

 

 

"This underground industry has been remarkably successful. The availability of high-throughput AR-ligand screens and a vast scientific and patent literature on androgenic steroids, raises legitimate concern that other novel compounds could currently be in use, while others may be developed in the future. Indeed, the full-extent of the current problem is not fully known because the only designer compounds that can be identified are those where there was a “whistle-blower” who alerted authorities. Even in cases where such individuals exist and are willing to step forward, chemical characterization of the new steroid can only be accomplished if these individuals have access to fairly large quantities of relatively pure material. It is clear that a new strategy is required that can efficiently detect the levels of novel anabolic steroids that would be present in the biological fluids of abusing athletes. Furthermore, for such a strategy to be effective it must be able to distinguish synthetic and natural steroids and it must also detect the synthetic steroids without prior knowledge of their chemical structure."

 

 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1402217

 

 

 

Tom

[example1]

Example1, that list is kind of meaningless. If you go and breakdown the numbers by age average you get:

28.2 is the average (age of SLG season) of the 62 pre-roids era.

29.8 is the average of the 38 roids age era, and that is including Bonds. If you take out Bonds (He is the ridiculous outlier), the number drops to 28.7.

 

Good analysis. I wasn't going to do that myself, I'm glad you did.

 

Now I don't really get the point of the post. We already know that Bonds is a steroid freak. We also know that Mcgwire, Giambi, and Sosa are likely just results of heavy steroid use. Other than those players, there really isn't anything unreasonable about any of the other players in the steroid era. Sure, there may have been players who had a amazing season at a late age, but so have the golden aged players.

 

How many golden aged players did it for their first time after 35? What about if you expand beyond the top 100?

 

You could say Babe Ruth is similar to Bonds in his production in his later years (32,33,34,36,37). Yes, this is a pretty insane and weak statement, but the point is that it isn't unheard of having a great season late in your career.

 

Yes, yes it is unheard of to have a great season.. a top 100 of all-time season, in your mid 30s. If Babe Ruth if your comparison then I think that proves the point. If you said Duke Snyder and Willie McCovey and Willie Stargell and Reggie Jackson and twelve other guys from various eras had done it then, yeah, it is a common thing. If Babe Ruth is the only one who did it, then I think that means something is wrong. Ruth was the greatest hitter of all time, and we can be confident he didn't use PEDS.

 

My guess is that it is unheard of to suddenly have a top 100 SLG season in your mid-30s when you haven't come close before.

 

I also don't get why you highlight guys like Manny Ramirez, Ken Griffy Jr, Pujols, Helton, D Lee, Vlad, and Howard.

 

Overall, you are missing the point of "bolding" those players. Those are the guys who put up top 100 SLG seasons in the steroid era. That seems, to me, to be the beginning point of any discussion about the impact of the steroid era and the star players (like A-Rod, who was revelaed today) who might be involved. I'm not saying all of them are guilty, just that they all deserve a closer look, and "bolding" them makes it easier for people--like you--to pick them out and analyze them more closely.

 

I thought the post would get too long if I broke each of the highlighted players down, and hoped someone else would take it on. You have. Ramirez, Griffey, Pujols, Helton, Lee, Vlad and Howard would all be on my "less suspicious" list, along with, maybe, Frank Thomas. That said, many people (myself included) are suspicious of Pujols due to his bodytype and insane production--I don't want to be, but I'm skeptical and he's on the line. Griffey and Manny are two true HOF players, I suspect they are both clean, but wouldn't be shocked if they had used for a short time too. Vlad has had a consistent injury history and had a trajectory similar to Griffey Jr., with speed and power early on, and a slow deterioration based on injuries later. I would love for Vlad to go down as a clean HOF player.

 

Really, there is no reason (other than the era they play in) to suggest they took steroids. Manny had all of his best season before he was 30, since then its been downhill. Griffy didn't hit those monster moonshots like the other roiders, he just had a perfect, linedrive swing. The rest of the guys simply had one great season, or have had great seasons while young.

 

That was the point of my list. By parsing it apart like that these things are easier to see, and I think it would be more telling to do top 300 seasons, or top 500. If a guy is consistently putting up seasons between the top 300 and top 100 then my guess is he has been consistent and didn't get the "power spike" that other players who are more clearly implicated have. That doesn't clear their name, but it may speak to their abuse of the game.

 

 

 

 

I think it is also important to realize that sports are at the more competitive level than they have ever been. Everyone is strong, faster, and more aware. I would EXPECT players of our age to be superior to players of the older age.

 

Me too, but to what degree? To this degree?

 

And does that expectation that "everyone is stronger, faster, and more aware" (and, I may add, have better "training techniques") enough to counter for HOF caliber talent that guys like Jimmy Foxx and Lou Gehrig obviously had? I don't know for sure, but I tend to think that someone like Babe Ruth would still be a good hitter today, possibly a great one. Same with some of those other guys who were unbelievable for their entire careers.

 

I think there is more to this than just saying "They were on roids, doesn't count". There are the few exceptions (Bonds, Sosa, etc), but I think overall, the consistently great players weren't just the product of steroids. Some may have had the performances increased a bit, but it was only a select few that actually were lifted to ridiculous levels.

 

You don't know that. I would consider "top 100 SLG season" to be ridiculous levels. Maybe you wouldn't but that group of players is pretty elite until Luis Gonzalez and Sammy Sosa show up.

 

There is no reason to suggest just because someone has a great season in the roids-era, its just because of steroids, or shouldn't be counted. When it comes down to it, also, the Bonds' of the game were still great players, just not godlike.

 

There is plenty of reason to suggest that all of these seasons are thanks to the roids-era... unfortunately. I wish it wasn't that way, but I think if you're not suspicious of a non-HOF caliber player putting up HOF-caliber numbers that have been cemented for 7 decades, then the wool is being pulled over your eyes.

 

The guys who have the big power spike are easy to spot, so are the guys who are HOF caliber and who then use (Bonds, Clemens). I think the toughest group are the guys who are big power hitters who either benefited from the drugs, or are freaks of nature. Pujols, Ortiz, Teixeira, Thomas, Albert Belle, etc., who knows with these guys?

 

I'm just not going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and to expect that everyone used something at some point. Until the PA gets stronger with its players I don't think any critical fan has much choice.

[26 to 6]

Can a mod please merge the two threads?

Yeah seriously please.

 

Nobody is clean? That's quite the overstatement. I wouldnt be suprised if it was like 50-60% or some outrageous like that. I guess here is my question, if everyone is doing it where is the competative advantege?

Exactly my point when considering guys like Clemens and Bonds, maybe to a lesser extent McGwire, as well as some others both current and former, who now apparently include A-Rod for the Hall of Fame. I understand the feelings of those who want to keep them out 100%, because what they did tarnished the game. But they were and still are extraordinary players who were forces in the game and put up HOF numbers, and even though significant portions of of their careers (some longer than others) were assited by PED use, they were still great players in their own right especially considering that every other Joe's who used Steroids or other PEDs didn't put the freak numbers that Bonds and Clemens and A-Ro(i)d have put up. 762 HR in a career, 7 Cy Youngs and 4672 strikeouts. Well above what everyone else was putting up at the time, many of whom were being assisted by the same drugs.

[THE ARS]

The numbers are the problem, 26.

 

 

 

Tom

[26 to 6]

The numbers are the problem, 26.

 

 

 

Tom

Yeah but they're above par compared to everyone else's numbers, many to most of whom were also benefiting from use. Look at the hundreds of guys named in the Mitchell Report as well as these various other reports and "lists" that have come out over the years. Only a microscopic percentage of them have put up these numbers. Guys like Clemens and Bonds, as well as some others in the discussion were putting up great HOF numbers even before the suspected periods of their use. They're still significantly better than everyone else making up the playing field. Sure, the numbers are skewed, but thats just a fact that we have to accept with this era, all of the numbers are skewed, ALL OF THEM. There's nothing we can do about that but accept it and take it into consideration when looking back on the books. They were still above their peers during the duration of their careers, just like every other Hall of Famer. I'm just making a point regarding the HOF debate. Sure I think it's understandable to skip them over during their first few years of their eligibility and not send them in on their first ballot, that's more than fair. But eventually I feel these guys should get in.

[ARod2212]

I'd love to know how his name is the only one they got off the list.

[example1]

Guys like Clemens and Bonds' date=' as well as some others in the discussion were putting up great HOF numbers even before the suspected periods of their use. They're still significantly better than everyone else making up the playing field. Sure, the numbers are skewed, but thats just a fact that we have to accept with this era, all of the numbers are skewed, ALL OF THEM. There's nothing we can do about that but accept it and take it into consideration when looking back on the books. They were still above their peers during the duration of their careers, just like every other Hall of Famer. I'm just making a point regarding the HOF debate. Sure I think it's understandable to skip them over during their first few years of their eligibility and not send them in on their first ballot, that's more than fair. But eventually I feel these guys should get in.[/quote']

 

I agree that a guy like Bonds was ready to get in before any of this started. For that he's a dumbass who had to be better than McGwire and Sosa I suppose.

 

I'm not sure about Clemens as a sure-fire HOF around the time of his amazing rejuvenation... maybe?

 

Let's see: Through 1996 (the year before he left Boston after some poor seasons to win two consecutive Cys in TOR) Clemens was 192-111, with 2776 IP, 2590 K, 3.06 ERA, 1.16 WHIP.

 

2776 IP is a pretty solid career, almost exactly what Pedro has pitched at this point (2782), and about 50 more IP than Andy Pettitte has thrown. It's a few less than Dwight Gooden's career (2800), or Wake's career (2802), for modern comparables. I think it is still on the short side of HOF pitchers unless those pitchers were absolutely astounding.

 

[table] name | IP | W-L | K | ERA | WHIP

Clemens | 2776 | 192-111| 2590 | 3.06 | 1.16

Pedro | 2782.7 | 214-99 | 3117 | 2.91 | 1.051 [/table]

 

Pedro was clearly better through the same number of innings. Clemens 'took off' and pitched another 2140 IP after that, winning 4 more Cy Youngs.

 

Bonds seems to be one of the few guys who was clearly a HOF player before hand. Clemens seems probably second closest, then guys like Palmero and McGwire and Sosa.

 

I think some type of consistent standard has to be taken either letting the guys in, or not letting them in. If they are let in then some type of classification should happen, or some mention should be made of the concerns around those players, AND the game needs to figure out how to ensure that the playing field is as level as possible again moving forward. It may not be possible to set up a perfect system, but it can be better than what we have had for the past 15 years.

[ARod2212]

So what happens when one guy gets through the Hall of Fame election process, and then comes out and says he took steroids? In fact, I'm sure there's somebody in there already who probably used steroids at some point.

 

Selig is going to have to grant amnesty to the entire generation regarding steroids. They fostered the culture of drug use by looking the other way, now they have to deal with the consequences. They'll never get every name, and that's unfair to the people who gets outed, tarred, and feathered.

[ARod2212]

Also, Babe Ruth is the best player ever.

[BSN07]

You have Griffey listed in there. In my eyes in light of todays revelations Ken Griffey Jr. is the greatest player of our generation' date=' period. I really don't think he used, he has too much respect for the game. It's not like he got any assistance in the injury recovery department. If it weren't for his injuries, which wouldn't have caused him to miss nearly as much time as he did if he were on roids, he would be in the debate for best player ever. That's just my opinion though.[/quote']

 

Griffey was my favorite player growing up. If it comes out he did roids, that one will sting a little bit for me. Well I should say, if he was roiding in his Seattle days(his best seasons), I would be disappointed. Given his injury list in Cincy(maybe used to try and get healthy), I would be less surprised if he had used.

 

 

But I agree if there is no need to worry about Griffey using, he is the best player of our generation.

 

 

 

 

 

As far as this Arod deal goes, I am a little surprised(I've stated I thought he was more likely to be clean then alot of players), but in the end not shocked.

[riverside sluggers]

Cool so when i go to a Yankees game, weve got 2 new chants for him. A-Fraud and Steroids

 

Anyways, if there was ever a year for him to rise up and carry the team (especially in October)... this is the season. Since he's been in New York, 1 trip to the ALCS, 3 losing ALDS series, and finishing in 3rd place this past season. Add on the Yankees getting the big 3 free agents, Torre's book and now testing positive for steroids for his 2003 campaign

[Dipre]

He's still ahead of GOM...

 

You forgot Jacko, dammit.

 

He's still ahead of Jacko as well........

[Gom]

You forgot Jacko, dammit.

 

He's still ahead of Jacko as well........

 

Diaper, I didn't realize they had computers for use for Walmart employees....

 

How are you, my carribean friend?

[jacksonianmarch]

I don't think we are going to see anyone with even a modicum of intelligence caught, Jackson.

 

The only reason any of these guys, and girls, got caught was because a track coach got pissy after he was fired.

 

Without a sample of the drug to work with the powers that be would never have found this stuff.

 

This is going on right now, the folks who make these drugs have the obvious advantage of it being a first. The drug test people then have to somehow devise a test for something they know nothing about, other than it makes you faster and stronger.

 

It's the proverbial needle in a haystack until somebody gets butthurt and talks.

 

 

Tom

 

 

ARS, the problem is, most players have that modicum of intelligence, but some do not. And eventually, a player or trainer or chemist will blab. And the new stuff will be found, the gov't will get involved and all samples retested. It is inevitable. Unfortunately, its a sign of the times

[diony]

A Walmart employee makes more money than him without a law degree.

[Dipre]

Diaper, I didn't realize they had computers for use for Walmart employees....

 

How are you, my carribean friend?

 

Oh i'm fine,sir.

 

How's the gardening going?

 

A Walmart employee makes more money than him without a law degree.

 

I make a LOT MORE than you, seeing how you're unemployed and live from your daddy's allowance.........

[YANKEESRULE]

I don't know Einstein' date=' maybe he was warned [b']far enough in advance[/b]???

 

Nope according to SI he was warned a couple of weeks ahead of time.

[YANKEESRULE]

That makes no sense. This is an absurd rationalization. Don't be an apologist for cheaters.

 

Maybe I should have explained that better. Everyone says either they didnt do steroids or they never saw it going on. It's a big problem so I don't buy that, that's what I meant. It should have been cleaned up internally, that's what I meant.

[TheKilo]

I'd love to know how his name is the only one they got off the list.

 

RED SOXS CONSIPRACY!!

[rician blast]

I've said all along that I thought he was a juicer, so while I take some level of confirmation from this announcement, I hope people realize that the bigger picture says no one can be assumed drug-free...no one...and that focusing on just the big names and the HR hitters is a mistake.

 

I am very confident that a high % of the following have used, whether they're implicated or not: Varitek, Nomar, Nixon, Troy O'LEary, Damon, Manny, Ortiz, Jeter, Abreu, Posada, Soriano, Bagwell, Thome, Giles, Juan Gon, Albert Belle, Helton, IRod, Glaus, Magglio, Burnitz, Delgado, Edmunds, Andrue Jones, Brett Boone, Tejada, Beltre, Pujols, Konerko, Berkman, Hafner..to name a few.

 

oh yeah, and Teixeira...that's right, I said it, I believe the kid next door has juiced.

[a700hitter]

I've said all along that I thought he was a juicer, so while I take some level of confirmation from this announcement, I hope people realize that the bigger picture says no one can be assumed drug-free...no one...and that focusing on just the big names and the HR hitters is a mistake.

 

I am very confident that a high % of the following have used, whether they're implicated or not: Varitek, Nomar, Nixon, Troy O'LEary, Damon, Manny, Ortiz, Jeter, Abreu, Posada, Soriano, Bagwell, Thome, Giles, Juan Gon, Albert Belle, Helton, IRod, Glaus, Magglio, Burnitz, Delgado, Edmunds, Andrue Jones, Brett Boone, Tejada, Beltre, Pujols, Konerko, Berkman, Hafner..to name a few.

 

oh yeah, and Teixeira...that's right, I said it, I believe the kid next door has juiced.

Maybe all of them did it, or maybe none of them did it. There really is no basis to suspect these guys more than anyone else. Yes, some of them got big, but they all got big during that era, even the backup middle infielders. Unless, we've seen pictures of them with needles in their arms or of their raisin-sized testicles, it's just speculation. After learning about Orza tipping off ARod, I am convinced more now than before that most of it ended after 2003. Couple the heads up from the union with the BALCO prosecution and lots of guys got skinny coming into camp in 2004--- e.g. IRod, Giambi.

[a700hitter]

Anyways' date=' if there was ever a year for him to rise up and carry the team (especially in October)... this is the season. Since he's been in New York, 1 trip to the ALCS, 3 losing ALDS series, and finishing in 3rd place this past season. Add on the Yankees getting the big 3 free agents, Torre's book and now testing positive for steroids for his 2003 campaign[/quote']He is not strong enough mentally. His fragile psyche will be his downfall this season.

[riverside sluggers]

Ditto, look what happened to Rafael Palmeiro playing for the Orioles. At one point he wore earplugs to try to drown out the boos. Any downward bump in offensive stats because of the stress he will have, the Yankee fans will be turning on him

[italstallianion]

I can't wait for the first Sox/Yanks game at Fenway...

[a700hitter]

I can't wait for the first Sox/Yanks game at Fenway...

It will be like throwing fresh meat to the lions.

[rician blast]

Maybe all of them did it' date=' or maybe none of them did it. There really is no basis to suspect these guys more than anyone else. Yes, some of them got big, but they all got big during that era, even the backup middle infielders. Unless, we've seen pictures of them with needles in their arms or of their raisin-sized testicles, it's just speculation. After learning about Orza tipping off ARod, I am convinced more now than before that most of it ended after 2003. Couple the heads up from the union with the BALCO prosecution and lots of guys got skinny coming into camp in 2004--- e.g. IRod, Giambi.[/quote']

 

We may never know the full extent of PED use, and we may never have "proof", but the "maybe none of them did it" theory is absolutely the same head in the sand thought process that had some here proclaiming ARod to someday be the true, clean HR champ.

 

You'd have to be pretty naive not to think that a high % of the guys I have listed, many who's HR totals skyrocketed then fell off equally as fast, didn't juice. Legally, obviously, allegations and indictments require evidence...but we can speculate as we see fit...and IMO to assume they're innocent until proven guilty is a huge leap of faith.

 

WHen I was in my college years,working at a gym (in the 80's) I was approached numerous times by HS and college athletes looking for hard core anabolic products. 'Roids were rampant. When I got to college, many of the college athletes I knew were using stuff. SO by the mid to late 80's I was already suspicious that professional athletes HAD to be using.

 

As usage in MLB increased, and fringe players became stars, and middle infielders hit 40 HRs, and utility players jobs were in jeopardy because players in the minors were bigger, stronger and faster, the usage became epidemic. Players now hit 400 Ft. HRs to the opposite field with virtually one-handed swings. Players necks and heads and arms and legs grew beyond which we know they can grow in the offseason from clean intense training. The stats, the bodies, the players attitudes are some of the indicators.

 

We don't need proof positive here folks...we need only be realistic and objective to know that PED use in MLB extends to far more players than most are willing to admit.