ARod tested positive

[a-roid]

i can't believe he did roids

[26 to 6]

i can't believe he did roids

Wow good post. You're on your way to becoming a top-notch member of this board.

[26 to 6]

a-rod is the worst

good one.

[BoSox21]

Bonds never looked like he was chiseled out of stone

[a-roid]

http://www.cafepress.com/eighthandbutler

 

Check out these shirts about a-rod, very funny

[THE ARS]

They had different body types to start. If they hadn't roided' date=' they would have had even a higher percentage of body fat.[/quote']

 

They had a different body type than David Ortiz?

 

 

Tom

[yankeessuck013]

Steroids and Yankee players. The two go hand in hand. I have to amit that I looked upon Canseco's book Game of Shadows with disbelief, but no more. I heard Joe Torre say in a radio interview that he probably "looked the other way" when it came to steroid use on the Yanks. The man simply did not want to know. OK, I buy that. And A-Rod in '03 was a Texas Ranger, but if Gene Orza has to warn A-Rod in '04 a month before he was being tested that he will be tested in a month I find it hard to believe Torre and the Yanks knew nothing.

 

There will be no discipline here, nor should there be any. Each fan must decide for him or herself how deal with the issue. Most Yankee fans could care less that so many of their stars have been named in the steroid case, and that virtually all of their championships in the 90's are tainted by a roster full of cheaters and liars. Hey, we are all guilty of rooting for the laundry, but the fact that arguably the most talented player of this generation felt compelled to cheat floors me. The guy did not need it. He was not trying to heal quickly from an injury like Pettite, or regain his old form like Clemens, or hang on for another season or two like Sheffield and Justice, he was and is the best, most physically gifted, and highest paid player in the game. For him to cheat speaks volumes about his character and his insecurity. In the coming months we will see the other 103 names on the list, we will all be saddened by learning that guys on "our team" felt compelled to cheat. I understand the guy who is a borderline player taking the risk, look at the money to be made in MLB compared to the minors or the real world. But when our stars of stars are dirty it really sucks for all fans.

[Cocos Disciples]

http://www.cafepress.com/eighthandbutler

 

Check out these shirts about a-rod, very funny

 

Wow, those shirts are f***ing awful.

[jacksonianmarch]

They had different body types to start. If they hadn't roided' date=' they would have had even a higher percentage of body fat.[/quote']

 

he's right a700. Roids help you recover faster. They do assist with metabolism, but it doesnt mean that every roid head is a chiseled monster. It is still an intake vs expenditure algorithm and it all depends on which muscles they are working. A good amount of roiders are actually just bigger freaks of nature. If they dont do a lot of ab work, then they wont get chiseled abs.

[26 to 6]

Steroids and Yankee players. The two go hand in hand. I have to amit that I looked upon Canseco's book Game of Shadows with disbelief, but no more. I heard Joe Torre say in a radio interview that he probably "looked the other way" when it came to steroid use on the Yanks. The man simply did not want to know. OK, I buy that. And A-Rod in '03 was a Texas Ranger, but if Gene Orza has to warn A-Rod in '04 a month before he was being tested that he will be tested in a month I find it hard to believe Torre and the Yanks knew nothing.

Canseco didn't write Game of Shadows. And the reason that more Yankees are named in the mitchell report than any other team, as I've argued all day, is because the sources for the Mitchell Report were primarily out of NY. That's what information they had, and that's the information George Mitchell relied upon. You're sadly mistaken if you think PED use is limited to those listed in the mitchell report.

[italstallianion]

Wow good post. You're on your way to becoming a top-notch member of this board.

 

He's still ahead of GOM...

[example1]

All Time 100 SLG Seasons: [Players under suspicion for 'roid use in bold.]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SLG_season.shtml

 

 

1. Barry Bonds* (36) .8634 2001 L

2. Babe Ruth+* (25) .8490 1920 L

3. Babe Ruth+* (26) .8463 1921 L

4. Barry Bonds* (39) .8123 2004 L

5. Barry Bonds* (37) .7990 2002 L

6. Babe Ruth+* (32) .7722 1927 L

7. Lou Gehrig+* (24) .7654 1927 L

8. Babe Ruth+* (28) .7644 1923 L

9. Rogers Hornsby+ (29) .7560 1925 R

10. Mark McGwire (34) .7525 1998 R

11. Jeff Bagwell (26) .7500 1994 R

12. Barry Bonds* (38) .7487 2003 L

Jimmie Foxx+ (24) .7487 1932 R

14. Babe Ruth+* (29) .7391 1924 L

15. Babe Ruth+* (31) .7374 1926 L

16. Sammy Sosa (32) .7366 2001 R

17. Ted Williams+* (22) .7346 1941 L

18. Babe Ruth+* (35) .7317 1930 L

19. Ted Williams+* (38) .7310 1957 L

20. Mark McGwire (32) .7305 1996 R

21. Frank Thomas (26) .7293 1994 R

22. Hack Wilson+ (30) .7231 1930 R

23. Rogers Hornsby+ (26) .7223 1922 R

24. Lou Gehrig+* (27) .7212 1930 L

25. Larry Walker* (30) .7201 1997 L

26. Albert Belle (27) .7136 1994 R

27. Larry Walker* (32) .7100 1999 L

28. Babe Ruth+* (33) .7090 1928 L

29. Al Simmons+ (28) .7076 1930 R

30. Lou Gehrig+* (31) .7064 1934 L

31. Mickey Mantle+# (24) .7054 1956 B

32. Jimmie Foxx+ (30) .7044 1938 R

33. Jimmie Foxx+ (25) .7033 1933 R

34. Stan Musial+* (27) .7021 1948 L

35. Babe Ruth+* (36) .7004 1931 L

36. Todd Helton* (26) .6983 2000 L

37. Babe Ruth+* (34) .6974 1929 L

38. Manny Ramirez (28) .6970 2000 R

39. Mark McGwire (35) .6967 1999 R

40. Lou Gehrig+* (33) .6960 1936 L

41. Rogers Hornsby+ (28) .6959 1924 R

42. Hugh Duffy+ (27) .6939 1894 R

43. Jimmie Foxx+ (31) .6938 1939 R

44. Albert Belle (28) .6905 1995 R

45. Tip O'Neill (29) .6905 1887 R

46. Luis Gonzalez* (33) .6880 2001 L

47. Barry Bonds* (35) .6875 2000 L

48. Mickey Mantle+# (29) .6868 1961 B

49. Chuck Klein+* (25) .6867 1930 L

50. Sam Thompson+* (34) .6865 1894 L

51. Todd Helton* (27) .6848 2001 L

52. Hank Greenberg+ (27) .6834 1938 R

53. Kevin Mitchell (32) .6806 1994 R

54. Rogers Hornsby+ (33) .6794 1929 R

55. Babe Herman* (27) .6775 1930 L

56. Barry Bonds* (28) .6772 1993 L

57. Jim Thome* (31) .6771 2002 L

58. Ken Griffey* (24) .6744 1994 L

59. Joe DiMaggio+ (22) .6731 1937 R

60. Babe Ruth+* (27) .6724 1922 L

61. Joe DiMaggio+ (24) .6710 1939 R

62. Albert Pujols (26) .6710 2006 R

63. Hank Greenberg+ (29) .6702 1940 R

64. Hank Aaron+ (37) .6687 1971 R

65. Hank Greenberg+ (26) .6684 1937 R

66. Willie Mays+ (23) .6673 1954 R

67. Ted Williams+* (27) .6673 1946 L

68. Albert Pujols (23) .6667 2003 R

69. Mickey Mantle+# (25) .6646 1957 B

70. Carlos Delgado* (28) .6643 2000 L

71. George Brett+* (27) .6637 1980 L

72. Vladimir Guerrero (24) .6637 2000 R

73. Manny Ramirez (27) .6628 1999 R

74. Lou Gehrig+* (28) .6624 1931 L

75. Larry Walker* (34) .6620 2001 L

76. Norm Cash* (26) .6617 1961 L

77. Derrek Lee (29) .6616 2005 R

78. Babe Ruth+* (37) .6608 1932 L

79. Jason Giambi* (30) .6596 2001 L

80. Ryan Howard* (26) .6592 2006 L

81. Travis Hafner* (29) .6586 2006 L

Willie Mays+ (24) .6586 1955 R

83. Ralph Kiner+ (26) .6576 1949 R

84. Chuck Klein+* (24) .6575 1929 L

85. Babe Ruth+* (24) .6574 1919 L

86. Albert Pujols (24) .6571 2004 R

87. Willie McCovey+* (31) .6558 1969 L

88. Albert Belle (31) .6552 1998 R

89. Sam Thompson+* (35) .6543 1895 L

90. Jimmie Foxx+ (26) .6531 1934 R

91. Albert Pujols (28) .6527 2008 R

92. Chick Hafey+ (27) .6525 1930 R

93. Rudy York (23) .6507 1937 R

94. Ted Williams+* (30) .6502 1949 L

95. Bill Joyce* (28) .6479 1894 L

96. Lou Gehrig+* (25) .6477 1928 L

97. Ted Williams+* (23) .6475 1942 L

98. Duke Snider+* (27) .6473 1954 L

99. Barry Bonds* (29) .6471 1994 L

100. Jason Giambi* (29) .6471 2000 L

 

Since I like lists, here's the above list with all the players who played in the "Roid Era", and their ages when they put up a top 100 SLG, in order of their best SLG season:

 

Bonds: 36, 39, 37, 38, 35, 28, 29,

McGwire: 34, 32, 35

Bagwell: 26

Sosa: 32,

Thomas: 26

Walker: 30, 32, 34

Belle: 27, 28, 31

Helton: 26, 27

Ramirez: 28, 27

L. Gonzalez: 33

K. Mitchell: 32

Thome: 31

Griffey Jr: 24

Pujols: 26, 23, 24, 28

Delgado: 28

Guerrero: 24

D. Lee: 29

Giambi: 30, 29

Howard: 26

Hafner: 29

 

First of all, the list is really big, disturbingly so. Are any of these guys beyond suspicion? I would say that Griffey Jr's 24 y.o season looks pretty good. As does Ryan Howard's age 26 season--if only because of his ballpark. Maybe Vlad's 24 y.o season, he's a physical freak. Pujols's age and his bunching of results in the lower tier of this list looks okay, but his body still concerns me. I can safely say that I have suspected every one of the players at one time or another.

 

Luis Gonzalez at 33? Sosa at 32?

 

How about Bagwell at 26? With Caminitti and, ironically, Luis Gonzalez (who had 8 HR, and 67 RBI in 119 games!).

 

Mostly, it makes me sad that 38 of the top 100 SLG seasons have happened in the past 15 years, and some guys only produced at that level only once. The rest of the list is filled with guys like Williams, Ruth, Foxx, Gehrig, Greenberg, and then a bunch of modern guys.

[Cocos Disciples]

You just bolded all the active or recently active players. For half of those guys we have no proof other than the era they played in.

[26 to 6]

You have Griffey listed in there. In my eyes in light of todays revelations Ken Griffey Jr. is the greatest player of our generation, period. I really don't think he used, he has too much respect for the game. It's not like he got any assistance in the injury recovery department. If it weren't for his injuries, which wouldn't have caused him to miss nearly as much time as he did if he were on roids, he would be in the debate for best player ever. That's just my opinion though.

[PATS12RULE]

Williams had hit more than 40 homers in a year earlier in his career. Thirty-eight was not a career high for him. In fact' date=' none of his numbers that year were that far off Williams career norms except the .388 (compared to .344 career BA). None of it represented a marked increase in performance. Williams with his 20/10 vision was a complete freak of nature. His performance at age 38 was so unusual that you had to go back 50 years to find a good example. That should tell you something right there. Players in their late 30's as a general rule decline precipitously in performance.[/quote']

 

lol i was kidding

[a700hitter]

lol i was kidding

I thought that you were kidding, but I couldn't pass on the opportunity to post about Teddy Ballgame.

[example1]

You just bolded all the active or recently active players. For half of those guys we have no proof other than the era they played in.

 

And I think that is exactly the point. Those are all the guys who did it during the past 15 years. If you look at them individually I think one could point out guys who are strongly suspicious and guys who are less suspicious. All of them are suspicious.

[example1]

You have Griffey listed in there. In my eyes in light of todays revelations Ken Griffey Jr. is the greatest player of our generation' date=' period. I really don't think he used, he has too much respect for the game. It's not like he got any assistance in the injury recovery department. If it weren't for his injuries, which wouldn't have caused him to miss nearly as much time as he did if he were on roids, he would be in the debate for best player ever. That's just my opinion though.[/quote']

 

I feel the same way about Griffey. I don't know about his respect for the game (one way or the other) but his career seems to have the trajectory of an all-time great who didn't heal very well from injuries. He was one of the best players at his peak with a great mix of tools.

[a700hitter]

he's right a700. Roids help you recover faster. They do assist with metabolism' date=' but it doesnt mean that every roid head is a chiseled monster. It is still an intake vs expenditure algorithm and it all depends on which muscles they are working. A good amount of roiders are actually just bigger freaks of nature. If they dont do a lot of ab work, then they wont get chiseled abs.[/quote']I'll defer to your medical expertise, but Ortiz doesn't seem to have any well-chiseled or overdeveloped muscles at all, nevermind his gut.

[Keeper]

I would be very surprised if Frank Thomas cheated.

[Keeper]

I'm kind of pissed that this is only coming out now. 2003 wasn't exactly yesterday...

[Gom]

He's still ahead of GOM...

 

Good one. Stay up all night thinking of that one, ItallianPony?

[BoSox21]

I'm kind of pissed that this is only coming out now. 2003 wasn't exactly yesterday...

 

keep in mind it was never supposed to come out

[jacksonianmarch]

I'll defer to your medical expertise' date=' but Ortiz doesn't seem to have any well-chiseled or overdeveloped muscles at all, nevermind his gut.[/quote']

 

Remember Lyle Alzado? He wasnt exactly in peak condition either. He had a nice gut going on too and he roided out of his mind.

[TedWilliams101]

Example1, that list is kind of meaningless. If you go and breakdown the numbers by age average you get:

28.2 is the average (age of SLG season) of the 62 pre-roids era.

29.8 is the average of the 38 roids age era, and that is including Bonds. If you take out Bonds (He is the ridiculous outlier), the number drops to 28.7.

 

Now I don't really get the point of the post. We already know that Bonds is a steroid freak. We also know that Mcgwire, Giambi, and Sosa are likely just results of heavy steroid use. Other than those players, there really isn't anything unreasonable about any of the other players in the steroid era. Sure, there may have been players who had a amazing season at a late age, but so have the golden aged players.

 

You could say Babe Ruth is similar to Bonds in his production in his later years (32,33,34,36,37). Yes, this is a pretty insane and weak statement, but the point is that it isn't unheard of having a great season late in your career.

 

I also don't get why you highlight guys like Manny Ramirez, Ken Griffy Jr, Pujols, Helton, D Lee, Vlad, and Howard. Really, there is no reason (other than the era they play in) to suggest they took steroids. Manny had all of his best season before he was 30, since then its been downhill. Griffy didn't hit those monster moonshots like the other roiders, he just had a perfect, linedrive swing. The rest of the guys simply had one great season, or have had great seasons while young.

 

I think it is also important to realize that sports are at the more competitive level than they have ever been. Everyone is strong, faster, and more aware. I would EXPECT players of our age to be superior to players of the older age.

 

I think there is more to this than just saying "They were on roids, doesn't count". There are the few exceptions (Bonds, Sosa, etc), but I think overall, the consistently great players weren't just the product of steroids. Some may have had the performances increased a bit, but it was only a select few that actually were lifted to ridiculous levels. There is no reason to suggest just because someone has a great season in the roids-era, its just because of steroids, or shouldn't be counted. When it comes down to it, also, the Bonds' of the game were still great players, just not godlike.

[a700hitter]

Remember Lyle Alzado? He wasnt exactly in peak condition either. He had a nice gut going on too and he roided out of his mind.

I remember that differently. When he attempted his comeback at age 40, he was bragging about his low body fat %, but he couldn't make it back because he was too slow. He had a hugely over-developed upper body during his playing days-- lots of cuts.

[BoSox21]

this is ridiculous, why is there even a discussion about Ortiz? is hitting over 40 homers at any point during the last 20 seasons the only qualification for being a suspected steroid user?

[jacksonianmarch]

everybody is a suspected roid user. I have said before that I didnt think Arod used, but I wouldnt be surprised. I have a few former teammates who at least made a MLB debut. And it is RAMPANT. And it still is. We'll find out in 2012 what they're taking this yr. Nobody is clean IMO.

[THE ARS]

I don't think we are going to see anyone with even a modicum of intelligence caught, Jackson.

 

The only reason any of these guys, and girls, got caught was because a track coach got pissy after he was fired.

 

Without a sample of the drug to work with the powers that be would never have found this stuff.

 

This is going on right now, the folks who make these drugs have the obvious advantage of it being a first. The drug test people then have to somehow devise a test for something they know nothing about, other than it makes you faster and stronger.

 

It's the proverbial needle in a haystack until somebody gets butthurt and talks.

 

 

Tom

[TheKilo]

Can a mod please merge the two threads?