Sox minor moves

[a700hitter]

Arroyo's salary is considerably more than this FO would be willing to pay him, his performance would be worse in the ALE, and he is easily replaceable. He will get 9.5 this year and 11 next year as part of a 2 yr/25m deal (w/ signing bonuses, etc.,). This FO can pick guys like Arroyo up off the scrap heap. In fact, if I remember correctly, that's where they got Arroyo.

 

I seriously doubt they're missing him much. They would much rather have 6 years of cost-controlled Masterson, Buchholz or Bowden available than an overpaid back-of-the-rotation SP like Arroyo. The only way a back of the rotation guy stays on this team is if he is willing to take a discount to do so, or if he is damanged goods who isn't getting what he would if healthy. Wakefield, Smoltz and Penny are all good examples.

 

They figured they would try to trade Arroyo for a high-upside guy like WMP. They swung and missed on that one, but Arroyo would have tested the FA waters already had he still been on this team. No way they were paying him 10m+ to pitch like he does.

The last time the Red Sox had a 5th starter with 10 or more wins it was Arroyo. Fifth starters with 200+ innings and 10+ wins are very rare. Just because the Reds overpaid the guy doesn't mean that the Red Sox would have done the same. If he had remained with the Red Sox, there is no way of knowing if he would have reached a $10 million/year fair market value. Bulcholz was a disaster last year. It was his terrible performance that was probably most responsible for finishing behind the Rays. As far as the difficulty of pitching in the ALE, I think there is a lot of hype. If you pitch on the Yankees or the Sox, you only have to face one of the big powers in the division, so it's not all that tough. Wakefield with his puff ball has put up 15+ wins a number of times. Burkett won more than 10 games. Moose won 20 for the only time in his career after he lost his velocity and was throwing slop.

[diony]

Arroyo's salary is considerably more than this FO would be willing to pay him, his performance would be worse in the ALE, and he is easily replaceable.

 

He didn't had that contract back in 2006, so that's a stupid argument and is completely irrelevant. The Sox could've easely afforded his arbitration years.

 

2006: $2.75 mill

2007: $3.8 mill

2008: $3.95 mill

 

The Sox can't afford that? Lugo, Drew, Dice-K. Oh and you guys gave $8 million to Schilling to stay home the entire season

 

Oh and let's not forget the Sox COULD afford this guy a year before.

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/mlb/2675.jpg

 

He is easily replaceable? Hey how's that going. Look at your 2006 rotation David Wells, Jason Johnson and Kyle Snyder did an amazing job.

 

I seriously doubt they're missing him much. They would much rather have 6 years of cost-controlled Masterson, Buchholz or Bowden available than an overpaid back-of-the-rotation SP like Arroyo.

 

They could had a cost controlled Arroyo for 3 years AND the three kids. Those guys were drafted after Arroyo was traded, except Buchholz. Well you ended up with the three of them, one of them is just a middle reliever, and the others are nobodies, brilliant.

 

Arroyo's 25/2 deal looks bad on this market, but not 3 years ago. Plus I'm pretty sure Super Theo would've signed him on a better deal. I mean he's good at locking guys to friendly contracts.

 

The only way a back of the rotation guy stays on this team is if he is willing to take a discount to do so, or if he is damanged goods who isn't getting what he would if healthy. Wakefield, Smoltz and Penny are all good examples.

They're barely healthy. So I don't see your point. Smoltz and Penny won't combine to pitch 200 IPs, and that's something Arroyo can do. You were saying Arroyo's performance in the AL East could have been worse, and what about Penny and Smoltz?

[example1]

The last time the Red Sox had a 5th starter with 10 or more wins it was Arroyo. Fifth starters with 200+ innings and 10+ wins are very rare. Just because the Reds overpaid the guy doesn't mean that the Red Sox would have done the same. If he had remained with the Red Sox' date=' there is no way of knowing if he would have reached a $10 million/year fair market value. Bulcholz was a disaster last year. It was his terrible performance that was probably most responsible for finishing behind the Rays. As far as the difficulty of pitching in the ALE, I think there is a lot of hype. If you pitch on the Yankees or the Sox, you only have to face one of the big powers in the division, so it's not all that tough. Wakefield with his puff ball has put up 15+ wins a number of times. Burkett won more than 10 games. Moose won 20 for the only time in his career after he lost his velocity and was throwing slop.[/quote']

 

 

All fair points about the AL E., and for the most part I agree with you.

 

I just don't think that having a 200+ IP 5th starter is that big of a priority if a team has multiple pitchers who can provide the aggrigate IPs, aggrigate performance, for less money. My guess is that Sox wouldn't have paid him what he is getting now.

 

My main point was that that nobody in the Sox FO is likely to be lamenting the loss of Arroyo too much. He was a good, not great pitcher.

[example1]

He didn't had that contract back in 2006, so that's a stupid argument and is completely irrelevant. The Sox could've easely afforded his arbitration years.

 

2006: $2.75 mill

2007: $3.8 mill

2008: $3.95 mill

 

 

Those salaries are exactly what allowed them to make the trade. A gain, it wasn't a great trade but if he was making what he is now they wouldn't have been able to move him.

 

The Sox can't afford that? Lugo, Drew, Dice-K. Oh and you guys gave $8 million to Schilling to stay home the entire season

 

They can afford it, so could the Reds, which is why the move was made. My point was that only the pre-FA contract made sense for the Sox. Thus the "I bet they wish they had THAT for a 4th or 5th starter now" comment is irrelevant.

 

He is easily replaceable? Hey how's that going. Look at your 2006 rotation David Wells, Jason Johnson and Kyle Snyder did an amazing job.

 

:lol: <_>

 

We won the WS in 2007 and got within one game in 2008, how's that going for you?

 

Those guys were drafted after Arroyo was traded, except Buchholz. Well you ended up with the 3 of them and Clement and some other crap, brilliant.

 

So, they easily ended up with guys who were more talented than Arroyo, were not hurt on the MLB club, and didn't end up overpaying for anyone. Seems like it worked out okay to me.

 

Arroyo's 25/2 deal looks bad on this market, but not 3 years ago. Plus I'm pretty sure Super Theo would've signed him on a better deal. I mean he's good at locking guys to friendly contracts.

 

Yeah, it does look bad on this market. It seemed like a lot at the time too. Again, I bet the Sox have no problem not having paid him, having taken a shot at a guy with high upside like WMP, and moving a #5 starter.

 

The point is that nobody is missing Arroyo, despite what you would like to believe. Theo isn't losing sleep over having lost him, and your smug "wouldn't he look good now" comment is meaningless to the ears of people who watched an 07 WS celebration and an 08 ALCS game 7. Those are the two seasons he would have been with the team. Now, at over 10m per year, it is all water under the bridge. He's gone, he makes too much money for his value--certainly on the Sox--and with the players I listed above, he veyr likely wouldn't have had a spot on this club anyway.

 

They're barely healthy. So I don't see your point. Smoltz and Penny won't combine to pitch 200 IPs, and that's something Arroyo can do.

 

But nobody cares about Arroyo. That's my point. We simply don't care. Nobody is missing him, nobody is lamenting 2006 anymore. That fire is long burned out. He is currently an overpaid mediocre pitcher on a bad team. Bye Bye Bronson... we've moved on.

[a700hitter]

My main point was that that nobody in the Sox FO is likely to be lamenting the loss of Arroyo too much. He was a good' date=' not great pitcher.[/quote']I am sure that they are not sitting around wringing their hands about the trade, but I think they have publicly acknowledged that the Arroyo for Wily Mo trade was a mistake.

[Rob_Zombie]

I am sure that they are not sitting around wringing their hands about the trade' date=' but I think they have publicly acknowledged that the Arroyo for Wily Mo trade was a mistake.[/quote']

 

a700 hitter continues to embarrass himself. Remember this is a guy who didn't think Youkilis was any good and refused to explain why.

 

When you use wins as part of your argument you've already lost. Who cares how many wins Arroyo put up?

 

Bronson Arroyo is at best a league average pitcher pitching in the weakest division in baseball, the N.L. Centra. The competition is the N.L. Central is significantly worse than in the A.L. East. Its not even close and to suggest otherwise is idiotic. Bronson Arroyo no longer pitches in Boston because he put up an XFIP of 5.38 in his final year in a Sox uniform. Its likelyt that would have been pretty close to his ERA had he continued in Boston and had he pitched like that, he wouldn't have put up 200+ innings.

[jacksonianmarch]

Arroyo's salary is considerably more than this FO would be willing to pay him, his performance would be worse in the ALE, and he is easily replaceable. He will get 9.5 this year and 11 next year as part of a 2 yr/25m deal (w/ signing bonuses, etc.,). This FO can pick guys like Arroyo up off the scrap heap. In fact, if I remember correctly, that's where they got Arroyo.

 

I seriously doubt they're missing him much. They would much rather have 6 years of cost-controlled Masterson, Buchholz or Bowden available than an overpaid back-of-the-rotation SP like Arroyo. The only way a back of the rotation guy stays on this team is if he is willing to take a discount to do so, or if he is damanged goods who isn't getting what he would if healthy. Wakefield, Smoltz and Penny are all good examples.

 

They figured they would try to trade Arroyo for a high-upside guy like WMP. They swung and missed on that one, but Arroyo would have tested the FA waters already had he still been on this team. No way they were paying him 10m+ to pitch like he does.

 

 

Arroyo at 9 mil when you know you are getting 200+IP.

 

or

 

Penny at 5 mil base and Smoltz at 5.5 mil base without any guarantees. And the kicker, if one of them reaches 200IP, then that numbers jumps 3 mil in Penny's case and 5 mil in Smoltz's case. Your economic argument is not useful

[italstallianion]

I am sure that they are not sitting around wringing their hands about the trade' date=' but I think they have publicly acknowledged that the Arroyo for Wily Mo trade was a mistake.[/quote']

 

 

Yes, but I'd bet that that's because of how bad Willy Mo Pena was and not because of how "good" Bronson Arroyo was. You could put Carl Pavano next to Pena and make him (Pavano) look that much better. Yes, we were officially boned in that deal, but I doubt anyone was saying "The Sox would have gone places if we had Arroyo on our team"

[italstallianion]

He didn't had that contract back in 2006, so that's a stupid argument and is completely irrelevant. The Sox could've easely afforded his arbitration years.

 

2006: $2.75 mill

2007: $3.8 mill

2008: $3.95 mill

 

The Sox can't afford that? Lugo, Drew, Dice-K. Oh and you guys gave $8 million to Schilling to stay home the entire season

 

Oh and let's not forget the Sox COULD afford this guy a year before.

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/mlb/2675.jpg

 

He is easily replaceable? Hey how's that going. Look at your 2006 rotation David Wells, Jason Johnson and Kyle Snyder did an amazing job.

 

 

 

They could had a cost controlled Arroyo for 3 years AND the three kids. Those guys were drafted after Arroyo was traded, except Buchholz. Well you ended up with the three of them, one of them is just a middle reliever, and the others are nobodies, brilliant.

 

Arroyo's 25/2 deal looks bad on this market, but not 3 years ago. Plus I'm pretty sure Super Theo would've signed him on a better deal. I mean he's good at locking guys to friendly contracts.

 

 

They're barely healthy. So I don't see your point. Smoltz and Penny won't combine to pitch 200 IPs, and that's something Arroyo can do. You were saying Arroyo's performance in the AL East could have been worse, and what about Penny and Smoltz?

 

 

 

As a point of information, Bowden was drafted 5 picks after Buchholz. They were both taken in the same round of the same year.

[Cocos Disciples]

The Sox signed Brad Wilkerson to a MiLB deal, according to MLBTR. Will get a real source soon.

[BSN07]

I think Ital has the right idea. It's more of a how bad WMP was,then a how good Arroyo has been scenario. The Sox knew what Arroyo was when they traded him. So they took a chance on what WMP could be, if they could get him to put it all together. Just like they took a chance on Ortiz. And instead of it costing just money this time, it cost a #5 SP. Which I think most teams would give up for a 35+HR bat(which is probably close to what they Sox thought he might produce in a full time role and with their coaching).

 

 

They could have done a whole lot worse then Arroyo too. Be thankful we didn't move a high upside pitching prospect or something.

 

The Sox rolled the dice and came up snake eyes on the deal. But hey you have to gamble sometimes to hit it big. And knowing that I'm ok with a couple stinkers every now and then, if in the end there's a couple beautiful deals.

[BoSox21]

The Sox signed Brad Wilkerson to a MiLB deal' date=' according to MLBTR. Will get a real source soon.[/quote']

 

A former Expo on the Sox, I like it

[riverside sluggers]

Good insurance to have down in the minors

[BSN07]

Good insurance to have down in the minors

 

I agree, the Sox have made some nice depth moves this offseason. Besides if he comes in and show cases in ST, and continues to hit well in the minors or wherever, he might be worth something come the TDL.

[diony]

He's a good defensive OF and can also play 1B. I don't see how he's going to get playing time with Baldelli and Kotsay, but is a good signing I guess.

[TheKilo]

Arroyo at 9 mil when you know you are getting 200+IP.

 

or

 

Penny at 5 mil base and Smoltz at 5.5 mil base without any guarantees. And the kicker, if one of them reaches 200IP, then that numbers jumps 3 mil in Penny's case and 5 mil in Smoltz's case. Your economic argument is not useful

 

Arroyo would not be a 200 IP pitcher in the ALE. He would not have an ERA under 5 in the ALE as it is currently structured.

[BoSox21]

There can't be anyone who would be comfortable with Arroyo pitching in any ALE rotation, regardless of how durable he is

[diony]

Arroyo would not be a 200 IP pitcher in the ALE. He would not have an ERA under 5 in the ALE as it is currently structured.

 

Based on what? You're overrating the ALE too much.

[TheKilo]

Based on what? You're overrating the ALE too much.

 

Based on the fact the Rays are vastly improved and the last time he was in the ALE he barely made it over the 200 IP mark.

[jacksonianmarch]

barely making it over 200IP is a solid feat in the ALE

[example1]

Based on what? You're overrating the ALE too much.

 

barely making it over 200IP is a solid feat in the ALE

 

Nobody cares about Arroyo. Nobody is missing him, no matter how much you may argue to the contrary. Last year the Yankees pitching staff sucked. Did you guys sit around missing Javier Vazquez or Jon Lieber (both of whom approached 200 IP in 2004)?

 

It just doesn't matter to any of us. If it did there would be a thread, something like "Am I the only one who misses Arroyo?" and we would all be agreeing "Yes, I miss Arroyo too" and "Boy, this team would really be unstoppable if they just had Arroyo".

 

It's a non-issue, pushed by a number of non-Red Sox fans toward the end of the hot stove season. Get over it. My economic argument, along with the "let's try WMP" argument, combined with the "he's nothing better than a #5" argument all hold enough water to easily counter the "he'll give you 200+ IP" argument. None of us care. He's not Cy Young

[diony]

Based on the fact the Rays are vastly improved and the last time he was in the ALE he barely made it over the 200 IP mark.

 

Still, those were 205.1 IPs in 32 starts. Good for a 6.41 IP/GS

 

Besides the NL Central is not so bad either, he pitches half his games on a hitter's park plus the Reds have one of the worst defenses in the majors.

[diony]

Nobody cares about Arroyo. Nobody is missing him, no matter how much you may argue to the contrary. Last year the Yankees pitching staff sucked. Did you guys sit around missing Javier Vazquez or Jon Lieber (both of whom approached 200 IP in 2004)?

 

No one is forcing you to read this thread. Honestly, I don't give a s*** if you don't care about Arroyo.

 

You don't care about him? But you made a huge post bashing him a page ago. After you were proven wrong now you say "You don't care", brilliant. :thumbsup:

[example1]

No one is forcing you to read this thread. Honestly' date=' I don't give a s*** if you don't care about Arroyo. [/quote']

 

It's not just me that doesn't care about Arroyo. NOBODY cares about Arroyo. You and Jacko are trying to make it like we SHOULD care that he isn't on the Sox. "I bet you wouldn't mind having him as a #5"... no, we simply don't care about him. Nobody misses him, he was a mediocre pitcher. We realized that at the time, and nothing has changed. Sorry if you don't like having your topic shatupon, but its an innane nitpick, stupid points made to somehow make us feel worse about our team. I think it is important that you know that he doesn't matter to Red Sox fans. I feel quite confident in saying that, having monitored this board for a long, long time, all discussion about Arroyo disappeared by the end of 2007, at the latest.

 

You don't care about him? But you made a huge post bashing him a page ago. After you were proven wrong now you say "You don't care", brilliant. :thumbsup:

 

No. The post was bashing you, not Arroyo. You were making him out to be something really special, a 200+ IP guy. The point of my post was that even if he had not been traded in 2006, he wouldn't still be on the team without a big discount, and given that he took that discount initially and was traded, chances are the same thing would have happened again. The Sox FO didn't view him as that valuable (in retrospect he was more valuable than WMP, but few fault them for trying to find another diamond in the rough with WMP). In either case, nobody would be talking about him now.

 

If you don't like that nobody agrees with you that Arroyo is somehow the savior that this team is missing out on--because of his oh so valuable 200+ IP capabilities--then tough. I can tell you to "not read the thread" as much as you can tell me to do the same.

 

Given that so far the people who have lemented the loss of Arroyo for the Sox are YOU, JACKO, and A700HITTER, that should give you a pretty good idea of how important we hold his services. Not very.

[a700hitter]

a700 hitter continues to embarrass himself. Remember this is a guy who didn't think Youkilis was any good and refused to explain why.

When was this? And who is talking about Youkilis? I love the posters who look to tar me with a past opinion about a player that is not being discussed, but they will never hold the FO accountable for a truly terrible trade like the Wily Mo trade. Somehow, my judgment is impugned because of a past mistake, but the FO is still doing a great job, despite Wily Mo and Lugo and others. Anyway, to address the irrelevant case of Youkilis that you have interjected, prior to last year, it was my opinion that Youk was a .280 hitter with 15 Hrs and 80 RBI. I didn't expect him to step up his power game at age 28. Even though I would have sold high on him if the Sox got Teixeira to alleviate the logjam at 1st and 3rd base. I never said that he wasn't any good.

 

When you use wins as part of your argument you've already lost. Who cares how many wins Arroyo put up?

While wins may not be the best indicator of how a pitcher oitches from year to year, if he consistently puts up 10 to 15 wins every year and 200+ innings, the guy has established himself as a very reliable back of the rotation pitcher.

 

Bronson Arroyo is at best a league average pitcher pitching in the weakest division in baseball' date=' the N.L. Centra. The competition is the N.L. Central is significantly worse than in the A.L. East. Its not even close and to suggest otherwise is idiotic. Bronson Arroyo no longer pitches in Boston because he put up an XFIP of 5.38 in his final year in a Sox uniform. Its likelyt that would have been pretty close to his ERA had he continued in Boston and had he pitched like that, he wouldn't have put up 200+ innings.[/quote']Pitching in the ALE is not that difficult if you pitch for the Yankees or the Red Sox. The Rays, Orioles and Jays consistently are in the bottom half of offensive teams in the AL. Also, let's not forget that Arroyo has been pitching in one of the more ridiculous band boxes in baseball with one of the worst defensive teams backing him up.

[a700hitter]

It's not just me that doesn't care about Arroyo. NOBODY cares about Arroyo. You and Jacko are trying to make it like we SHOULD care that he isn't on the Sox. "I bet you wouldn't mind having him as a #5"... no' date=' we simply don't care about him. Nobody misses him, he was a mediocre pitcher. [/quote']He was the best #5 pitcher that the Red Sox have had in 10+ years. We don't miss him, because he is yesterday's news.

 

 

The point of my post was that even if he had not been traded in 2006' date=' he wouldn't still be on the team without a big discount, and given that he took that discount initially and was traded, chances are the same thing would have happened again. The Sox FO didn't view him as that valuable (in retrospect he was more valuable than WMP, but few fault them for trying to find another diamond in the rough with WMP). In either case, nobody would be talking about him now.[/quote']Boy you should write fiction. You just make up a whole scenario spanning years and conclude that is how things would have turned out. Truthfully, you have no idea how things would have turned out if the Wily Mo pena deal had not been made, and neither do I. You constantly try to win arguments with baseless conjecture. All we do know is that Arroyo has 38 wins in 3 years and WMP is still a bust who plays the game like a wrestler. I was in favor of the WMP trade when it happened, but I learned a bitter lesson. You never have enough quality pitching and you never trade a solid rotation guy for a guy who is a project. The FO blew that big time. To argue otherwise is insane. Most of us who liked the trade gave up defending it years ago, because it is indefensible at this point.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Truthfully' date=' you have no idea how things would have turned out if the Wily Mo pena deal had not been made, and neither do I. You constantly try to win arguments with baseless conjecture. All we do know is that Arroyo has 38 wins in 3 years and WMP is still a bust who plays the game like a wrestler. I was in favor of the WMP trade when it happened, but I learned a bitter lesson.[/quote']

 

Its baseless conjecture that the Sox didn't value Arroyo? Hm. Yeah, they definitely valued him enough to trade him for a complete f***up.

[diony]

It's not just me that doesn't care about Arroyo. NOBODY cares about Arroyo. You and Jacko are trying to make it like we SHOULD care that he isn't on the Sox. "I bet you wouldn't mind having him as a #5"... no' date=' we simply don't care about him. Nobody misses him, [b']he was a mediocre pitcher[/b]. We realized that at the time, and nothing has changed. Sorry if you don't like having your topic shatupon, but its an innane nitpick, stupid points made to somehow make us feel worse about our team. I think it is important that you know that he doesn't matter to Red Sox fans. I feel quite confident in saying that, having monitored this board for a long, long time, all discussion about Arroyo disappeared by the end of 2007, at the latest.

 

If you don't care then stop posting about it

 

Now Arroyo is mediocre? Hah why? Because he's not on your team right now and your FO traded him for a bust? The deal sucked back in 2006 and it sucks now. You don't trade a decent cost controlled starter for a corner OF. But why am I posting? I forgot you don't care .

[Keeper]

All I have to say is people who sign pitchers made of glass (Carl Pavano) shouldn't throw stones...

[26 to 6]

I think it was potentially a good deal at the time, if Wily Mo lived up to the billing he got for years, since he was signed as an amateur international FA to a Major league contract by the Yankees. Can't blame them for making the trade at the time considering Pena's potential, but yes it's not looking good now. Hindsight is 20/20 though. Can't really get on Theo too much for this one.