Biggest Goat of the ALCS so far?

[TheKilo]

Drew did nopt suck in 2007. He didn't justify his salary in the regular season but he was about average for a RF.

 

Jason Varitek had a ~.750 OPS just last year and a .350 OBP. For a catcher, that qualifies as being an offensive contributor.

 

Manny was replaced with Jason Bay who has been one of the offensive bright spots in this postseason. I refuse to believe that taking Bay out of this lineup and replazing him with Ramirez is the answer here. THere are too many other issues right now.

 

Ortiz. Is. HURT. Expecting that if you put Ramirez behind him in the lineup the old Papi magic would return is asinine. Esoecially because he had Manny behind him for the early part of this year and he SLUMPED. Like as in the worst slump we've ever had to watch Big Papi experience.

 

Let go of the Manny thing, dude. It is not the issue here.

 

This is the key point. Bay is not making me, or anyone who's actually watching these games, miss Manny Ramirez.

 

PS, worst case scenario - the Red Sox after tonight will be in the exact same position the Dodgers are in.

 

The key to this series thus far is that Ortiz is not producing. The guys hitting around him (Pedroia, Youks, Bay) have all been hitting the snot out of the ball but to no avail, because #34 can't drive them in.

 

Same goes for Ellsbury - if he got ONE HIT in game 2, we would be up 2-1. Leading Ellsbury off has killed this team all year and it appears Francona is hell bent on letting it happen for the rest of the postseason.

 

I put the goats in this order:

 

Ortiz

Beckett

Francona

Ellsbury

 

Everybody else

 

I'm not including Lester because even though he sucked last night, he still battled and gave the Sox their chance to make a run, something Beckett couldn't do.

[YanksHater213]

I think you need to put Ellsbury higher. He's supposed to set the table for Pedroia, Ortiz, Youk, and Bay, not look at meatballs and chase bad pitches.

[Mr Crunchy]

Climb off the f***ing roof and get back in the chair...

this is baseball, not the stock market or your job or your health

ya right.

fact is manny is carrying l.a. while losing and we dont have any pop

we deserve each other.

that said

we're down a game,we can get it right tonight,we best get it right tonight because only the Cubs are beatable with games 6-7 at home.

im still of the mindset that tampa needs to beat beckett lester or dice k to close this thing out and theylll have to win 2 out of 3 IF we win tonite

why paul byrd last nite?

what if wake eats it tonight??

tampa deserves to be on top and they are,theyve outplayed us all series and theyre a carl crawford laissez faire attempt at a soft liner away from owning our asses.

and we are a josh beckett ridiculous 8 earned 4.1ip effort away from coming home 2-0 and owning them

so to panic is wrong,

to worry is redsox tradition

i will leave you all in the comfort and favor of the Lord today as I prank call all my red neck cousins in the 813 area code,mentioning desegregation,,the closings of the Presbytarian Church and Sara Palin confessing to being a soft porn actress...Maybe then my phone wont ring every time tampa scores a f***ing run...Hang in there kids,its a long way from being done

[TheKilo]

FWIW, Manny against TB this season:

 

.200/.308/.311/.619

 

1 HR, 10 RBI, 15 K in 45 ABs

 

In other words, Jacoby Ellsbury

[VA Sox Fan]

Climb off the f***ing roof and get back in the chair...

this is baseball, not the stock market or your job or your health

ya right.

fact is manny is carrying l.a. while losing and we dont have any pop

we deserve each other.

that said

we're down a game,we can get it right tonight,we best get it right tonight because only the Cubs are beatable with games 6-7 at home.

im still of the mindset that tampa needs to beat beckett lester or dice k to close this thing out and theylll have to win 2 out of 3 IF we win tonite

why paul byrd last nite?

what if wake eats it tonight??

tampa deserves to be on top and they are,theyve outplayed us all series and theyre a carl crawford laissez faire attempt at a soft liner away from owning our asses.

and we are a josh beckett ridiculous 8 earned 4.1ip effort away from coming home 2-0 and owning them

so to panic is wrong,

to worry is redsox tradition

i will leave you all in the comfort and favor of the Lord today as I prank call all my red neck cousins in the 813 area code,mentioning desegregation,,the closings of the Presbytarian Church and Sara Palin confessing to being a soft porn actress...Maybe then my phone wont ring every time tampa scores a f***ing run...Hang in there kids,its a long way from being done

 

Ah, a voice of reason. Seano, turn off your phone.

[rician blast]

We watched Game 2 at my house with approx. 20 adults and teens since it was my 13 yr olds B-Day. (BTW, Sam-Octoberfest os pretty good, but the Beck's Dark is still king in my house...luckily my buddies and relatives like Corona and Bud Light).

 

Anyway, as fate would have it there were a couple of Yankee fans there, vocally rooting against the Sox...I can take it it was a lot of fun, and their $200+m payroll bought 'em nothing this year, I didn't need to say a word, they knew it, I knew it.

 

But my brother in law? Holy f*** I thought he'd clock this 15 yr old kid who was pushing his buttons all night. It was hilarious to watch, but also served as a reminder that alcohol plus an irrational view of what these games really mean are a bad combination.

 

My point is that it's fkn entertainment, folks. These guys don't pay your salary, they don't police your streets, they don't babysit or drive your kids to school, they don't provide you medical treatment...they're just very talented and fortunate athletes who provide us with a diversion from the important things in life...how things turn out, good or bad, has to be kept in perspective.

[Mr Crunchy]

good point and if you remember that above and beyond all else

the yankees suck

then this too shall pass.

Sams Octoberfest is a wonderful brew but after 10-12 of them I feel like I was stuffed full of hops and barley and walking erect becomes difficult.

Now that i dont drink much anymore i can manage a couple of them before i need to loosen my belt.

I cant watch these games in public anymore and really havent since been able to since 2003 without wanting to smash a chair over someones back...

f***ing bandwagoneers, yankee fans and a plethora of other **********s who find their way into the bar in the worst possible moments just make me long for the days of being young, virile and off probation and I end up with a migraine win or lose..

[Mr Crunchy]

I just walked into the district managers office from Clifton Park and farted so bad i almost puked on myself.....

That'll teach him to torment me with boxscore emails highlighted...

Hey Rene

Hows that staff meeting going now??

bwahahahahahahaha

[VA Sox Fan]

I just walked into the district managers office from Clifton Park and farted so bad i almost puked on myself.....

That'll teach him to torment me with boxscore emails highlighted...

Hey Rene

Hows that staff meeting going now??

bwahahahahahahaha

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing....all you do is give.....

[a700hitter]

Drew did nopt suck in 2007. He didn't justify his salary in the regular season but he was about average for a RF.

He was an average OF on an above average offensive team. Compare to his team, he sucked in 2007.

 

Jason Varitek had a ~.750 OPS just last year and a .350 OBP. For a catcher' date=' that qualifies as being an offensive contributor.[/quote']Contributor is different from threat

 

Manny was replaced with Jason Bay who has been one of the offensive bright spots in this postseason. I refuse to believe that taking Bay out of this lineup and replazing him with Ramirez is the answer here. THere are too many other issues right now.

The issue is that the pitching has been getting beaten like a pinata.

 

Ortiz. Is. HURT. Expecting that if you put Ramirez behind him in the lineup the old Papi magic would return is asinine. Esoecially because he had Manny behind him for the early part of this year and he SLUMPED. Like as in the worst slump we've ever had to watch Big Papi experience.

The worst slump that Ortiz suffered was at the beginning of this season. When he started to be able to clean out the inside fastball, the slump was over in a big way. The problem is that he doesn't see too many insided fastballs to challenge him. Pitchers would rather walk him, because the X factor is not on deck. I'm not going to denigrate Youk, who is a great professional hitter, but he is not the threat to go deep that Manny is. If Youk doubles, Papi still doesn't score from first, so why pitch to him with 2 outs. That would be managerial incompetence. Ortiz would be pitched differently if Manny was behind him. The two guys back to back changed the whole dynamic of the game. If you don't understand that, then you haven't been paying attention for the last 5 years.

 

Let go of the Manny thing' date=' dude. It is not the issue here.[/quote']I have let it go, Dude. When Manny stopped playing, he had to go. The problem in this series is that the pitching has sucked. Ortiz has not been the problem. You can't expect to win when you give up 8 and 9 runs in back to back games. No Sox team has ever done that before in the post season.

 

Ortiz will never be what he was when Manny was behind him. He might be the old Ortiz for short spurts, but once he heats up, the pitchers will pitch around him. He's not in decline. He's being pitched to differently. The two taken together back to back were better than either will be apart over an entire season. Manny has had an incredible second half salary drive, but we will see how effective he will be over a whole season without Ortiz. He'll see lots of sliders away and very few fastballs.

[TheKilo]

.288/.485/.658/1.143

 

7 HR, 16 RBI

 

a700, you know what this line is from?

[Mr Crunchy]

anyone remember where and what we paid for ortiz?

anyone familiar with his career pre manny?

his wrist clicks?

ha

i ate 12 cherry peppers stuffed with prosciutto and sharp provolone yesterday at the columbus day banquet, i needed a cup full of ice this morning to cool off my colon.

on normal days i only need a quarter cup...to quote the not yet deceased but may as well be al davis,Just Win Baby.

[a700hitter]

.288/.485/.658/1.143

 

7 HR, 16 RBI

 

a700, you know what this line is from?

I would guess that it Youkilis's line in the last 2 post seasons. I would also say that he benefited from batting behind Papi (this year) and behind Manny and Papi (last year) rather than that they benefited from batting near Youkilis. He is an excellent hitter, but he doesn't carry the fear factor of the other two. After a couple of more years like this, he might have that effect on pitchers, but he is not in that class yet.

[TheKilo]

I would guess that it Youkilis's line in the last 2 post seasons. I would also say that he benefited from batting behind Papi (this year) and behind Manny and Papi (last year) rather than that they benefited from batting near Youkilis. He is an excellent hitter' date=' but he doesn't carry the fear factor of the other two. After a couple of more years like this, he might have that effect on pitchers, but he is not in that class yet.[/quote']

 

Ortiz's numbers in September 2006 when Manny quit on the team.

 

Remember the powerhouse lineup in September 2006? Me neither.

[a700hitter]

Ortiz's numbers in September 2006 when Manny quit on the team.

 

Remember the powerhouse lineup in September 2006? Me neither.

His 7 HRs in September were down from 10 in August and 14 in July when Manny was in the lineup. He's a great hitter, but even greater when Manny was behind him.

[TheKilo]

He had a 1.143 OPS. He has shown the ability to be an incredible run producer without Manny in the lineup - and in this instance he had guys like Eric Hinske hitting behind him.

 

it sucks that the injury is still bothering him - but he can't use not having Manny as an excuse because he's produced without him before.

[a700hitter]

He had a 1.143 OPS. He has shown the ability to be an incredible run producer without Manny in the lineup - and in this instance he had guys like Eric Hinske hitting behind him.

 

it sucks that the injury is still bothering him - but he can't use not having Manny as an excuse because he's produced without him before.

Ortiz will produce again. Also, let's not forget that they played very few meaningful games in September 2006. If those games had been critical to a playoff berth, he would have been pitched around quite a bit more. I am not saying that the injury is not a major factor, but the absence of Manny makes his situation worse, because he is seeing more offspeed stuff and he is committing earlier because of the injury. There is more than one force at work here resulting in his below par performance. I don't think it is fair to conclude that he is in a decline due to age or injury yet. We need to see how he bounces back next season. If healthy, I expect that his HRs will be down from the 40+ to which we have become accustomed, because he will be pitched differently, but I expect that his OBP and BA will remain high.

[TheKilo]

I agree. I'd wager Ortiz hits at least 35 if he stays healthy next season.

 

He also produced when Manny missed time last year.

[Paradisecity]

I am of the opposite opinion. I think the wheels of movaughnitis have been set in motion.

 

I'd love to be wrong.

[Mr Crunchy]

1st thing that goes is the legs

[BSN07]

I am of the opposite opinion. I think the wheels of movaughnitis have been set in motion.

 

I'd love to be wrong.

 

 

Papi is one of my all time favorites, but the history of big men's longevity in baseball isn't exactly great. He is passed his prime and on the backside of his career. A healthy Ortiz will probably produce a line of .20 25-30HR and 100RBI. This isn't bad, but he's not going to be the hitter he was in 04 ever again. In all honesty he could go either way, he might be able to sustain good numbers for the remainder of his contract, or he could go ala Mo Vaughn/Many other big men. Only time will tell. How much longer is he under contract? I would be surprised when it's done if the Sox go seperate ways if hes a health risk or his production is down.

 

I beleieve this off season or one soon, the Sox will be looking to find a new power hitter. Not sure who or what position, but Papi isn't going to be around for ever and this lineup is going to need a serious threat at the plate.

[jacksonianmarch]

I agree. Big men dont last long. And Papi isnt just a big man. He's a big fat man. He's already had some knee trouble that has required surgery. He's not gonna last long.

[a700hitter]

I agree. Big men dont last long. And Papi isnt just a big man. He's a big fat man. He's already had some knee trouble that has required surgery. He's not gonna last long.

He's very large, but for his frame, he is not very fat at all. His legs will go, but I don't think they will go as fast as Mo vaughn's. Mo was a fat slob.

[VA Sox Fan]

He's very large' date=' but for his frame, he is not very fat at all. His legs will go, but I don't think they will go as fast as Mo vaughn's. Mo was a fat slob.[/quote']

 

The doc is full of wishful thinking and wrong as usual. On the old BH forum he used to refer to Ortiz as a gorilla.....real nice. Oh and Schilling was Fat Curt.

 

Doc do you have animosity toward people of size?

[TheKilo]

Yeah, these things could have been said about Ortiz in 2005.

 

I think the wrist has gotten to the point where it's messed him up mentally.

[Keeper]

I don't think Ortiz deserves all the blame for the offensive woes this series. Ellsbury is just as bad, if not worse. He's slumping big time, but at least try to work some counts. Spoil some pitches. Draw a walk. Get on base. That's your job.

 

But the biggest goat is the starting pitching. When you only get 1 quality start in 4 games from your staff, you're setting yourselves up for failure.

[ORS]

I didn't mean to imply that I blame Ortiz. I recognize that he's still hurt and dealing with that. Perhaps I should have qualified my post about who has been the biggest disappointment and called it what I was really thinking about, "Whose lack of performance is hurting the team the most"? To me, Ortiz being totally ineffective is the biggest change from both the regular season this year and previous playoff years. Yes, Manny is gone, but for those paying attention, his replacement has picked up Manny's October torch and carried it well. There's no dropoff there. The dropoff, the big one, has been at the DH spot.

[Mr Crunchy]

we lost an awful lot of swagger when pedro martinez left town and it took josh becketts phenomenal 2007 to get it back.

we lost an awful lot of swagger when manny left town in July as well. nothing against jason bay, the guy has lived up to and exceeded our greatest expectations but hes hitting 6th and the world doesnt have to deal with the best 3-4 hitters since ruth and gherig back in the day,dont think the entire f***ing league didnt hi five itself when manny left boston,i assure you,.... they did.

the offensive concepts have to be changed

the table setters like ells HAVE TO produce

we need a shortstop that can hit a little bit,we need to run more.

the strategies arent easily incorporated in a 90 day stretch so look for some drastic changes in offensive philosophy in the offseason.

[a700hitter]

I don't think Ortiz deserves all the blame for the offensive woes this series. Ellsbury is just as bad, if not worse. He's slumping big time, but at least try to work some counts. Spoil some pitches. Draw a walk. Get on base. That's your job.

 

But the biggest goat is the starting pitching. When you only get 1 quality start in 4 games from your staff, you're setting yourselves up for failure.

The big man rose up and clubbed one to breath life into this team and he lit a fire, resulting in the greatest comeback in ALCS history.

[kreinbihl34]

Ortiz did what he is suppose to, now Beckett needs to man up. He's had a nice career so far, but this could be a major game we all look back onto.