Biggest Goat of the ALCS so far?

[NomahsHammSammich]

Josh Beckett in a landslide. Though Varitek, Ortiz, and Ellsbury could all represent the GOAT award admirably, Beckett has a lock on this dubious distinction. 8 runs? Are you fuggin kidding me? Even a decent-poor performance would have been good enough for the Sox to take a commanding 2-0 lead in this series. Instead we were treated to perhaps the worst post-season performance in Red Sox history. Beckett was given the lead on three separate occasions, only to cough it up. Beckett is to blame for the 2-1 hole the Sox are in. If he is hurt, he should say so. Maybe they can start Masterson in Game 6...if there is one. If that is the best Beckett can offer, he needs to pack it in for 2008.

[Youk Of The Nation]

perhaps the worst post-season performance in Red Sox history.

 

Really?

[Cocos Disciples]

Too early for this thread, thanks.

[Cocos Disciples]

Maybe they can start Masterson in Game 6...if there is one.

 

You're f***ing nuts. Take a breather man.

[Gom]

Oh my goodness, someone was going to have to be down 2-1.

 

You guys are acting like it's the end of the world.

 

Guys, home field advantage returned to the Rays. It's not a big deal.

 

If you lose tomorrow, it's a big deal. If you win tomorrow, it's a best of 5.

[jacksonianmarch]

Dont you mean best out of 3? This was a big game, as I thought this was the one true pitching advantage for the sox and they got shitstomped. Games 4 and 6 are mismatches in the Rays favor. If the Rays take advantage of the pitching matchups this thing is over. That being said, if the sox beat the rays tomorrow, the advantage shifts to them

[TheKilo]

Ortiz.

[Cocos Disciples]

I disagree that Game 6 is a mismatch. Kazmir sucked in Game 2 as well.

[YanksHater213]

Ortiz Ellsbury or Varitek.

 

Take your pick.

[ORS]

Ortiz.

He's been the biggest disappointment for me. He's become an IF pop up machine. A '08 regular season level Papi is enough to tip game 2 in our favor and keeps tonight's game within striking distance (which results in the good part of the bullpen, not Paul Byrd for runs 6-9) with the amount of times he came up with Pedroia on.

 

Without him, I don't think it's possible. He needs to get fixed, both his hand and his head, this offseason.

[Cocos Disciples]

Yeah I agree. With Ellsbury you knew he was going to suck to some extent. Maybe not 0 for everything, but the expectations were low. With Papi, you come to expect big things in October, but he's done nothing.

[TheKilo]

HM would go to Beckett, and Francona.

[ORS]

Yeah I agree. With Ellsbury you knew he was going to suck to some extent. Maybe not 0 for everything' date=' but the expectations were low. With Papi, you come to expect big things in October, but he's done nothing.[/quote']

Yeah, but he's teflon at this point in Boston. I'm not saying he deserves anything more than what's going on here. I don't want him booed, nor to I want the red haired poodle that works for the Globe to point his hatchet Papi's way, but for some his heroics have absolved him of future blame.

 

I will say this. I'm a bit concerned about his mental state with the Manny thing. He hasn't looked like he enjoys playing baseball in Boston since Manny left. Maybe it's just me, but his body language seems off. Hopefully he's just disappointed and frustrated with his injury. However, it wouldn't shock me if he asked to be traded. Worked for his homeboy.

[TheKilo]

If he's pissed about Manny, that's completely weak and the door is certainly open for a trade, IMO.

[Cocos Disciples]

True. IIRC, it was like that for a while with Schilling after 2004. As for the mental state thing, that would be weak. Manny seems to be doing just fine in LA, Papi can't be sulking around. That's bush league.

[Dojji]

Just opens the door for Carter and Anderson if that's true.

[a700hitter]

I will say this. I'm a bit concerned about his mental state with the Manny thing. He hasn't looked like he enjoys playing baseball in Boston since Manny left. Maybe it's just me' date=' but his body language seems off. Hopefully he's just disappointed and frustrated with his injury. However, it wouldn't shock me if he asked to be traded. Worked for his homeboy.[/quote']I agree that his mental state is not good right now. He's not getting it done, and feels like he is letting the team down. The wrist has messed with his head and confidence. I think he likes his teammates very much. I have heard him say how much fun he has had this season watching Pedroia's antics with Francona every day. Frankly, I think he is relieved not to be asked about Manny all the time. He is very much into the game. He is at the top of the dugout steps for every big moment and key win. While he is not happy with his performance, I don't think he is disenchanted with the team.

 

I can't believe someone sounded anxious about opening the door for Anderson and Carter. I've been watching Boston baseball for more than 40 years and I've seen 1 guy hit 50+ HRs in a year. In an off year when he is getting pitched around he hits 35 HRs knocks in 130 RBI and has a .440 OBP. Carter and Anderson? Please!

[Dojji]

I was responding to a possible situation in which Ortiz was sulking. Which I don't believe is true, but if he wants to pull an attitude, he's not irreplaceable.

 

Anderson is for real, and he's close. Making room for Anderson is going to start to be a big quesiton in 2009.

[TheKilo]

Yeah, Anderson's legit, but I envision him at 1B while Youk replaces Lowell in 2009.

 

I can dream, right?

 

I do believe Ortiz will bounce back next season. His poor performance has to be related to his wrist. He still sucks though.

[Gom]

I just think Papi is still hurt, to be honest. Wrist injuries [i believe] take a long time to heal.

[a700hitter]

I was responding to a possible situation in which Ortiz was sulking. Which I don't believe is true, but if he wants to pull an attitude, he's not irreplaceable.

 

Anderson is for real, and he's close. Making room for Anderson is going to start to be a big quesiton in 2009.

If you haven't noticed the Sox have a pop gun lineup without Manny. When Pedroia doesn't hit, they don't score. Ortiz rarely gets challenged with the fastball anymore, and no manager in his right mind would let his pitcher challenge him. He is the one legitimate gamebreaking offensive player in the lineup. Youk is a great offensive player and Bay has been solid, but Manny and Ortiz were a wrecking crew. When one was hot he carried the team. When they were both hot, they destroyed the opposing pitchers. Their presence in the middle of the lineup made everyone in front of them and behind them better. Pitchers couldn't work around them because they could n't put them both on. Now, it is much easier to work around just one of them. They are not exactly stacked with guys with 40+ HR potential. In fact, with the exception of Bay (and he's a long shot) there is no one in the lineup with 40 HR capability. Ortiz is not replaceable, and neither was Manny's bat, if you haven't noticed. Manny had to go, because just shut it down. His bat hasn't been replaced, no matter how much Bay has pleasantly surprised us.

[Dojji]

If you haven't noticed the Sox have a pop gun lineup without Manny.

 

Are you really trying to aver that the lack of Manny is the only major problem with this lineup right now?

 

The Red Sox have a popgun lineup because of injuries and age-related decline to 4 different players who are not named Manny Ramirez (but are instead named J. D. Drew, David Ortiz, Mike Lowell, and Jason Varitek).

 

Anyone who loses 4 of their big bats from a year ago is going to struggle to score runs.

[NomahsHammSammich]

Lester sucked tonight....if Beckett had only sucked like Lester did tonight....the Red Sox would be up 2-1. I am telling you that was one of the worst post-season performances in the history of the Boston Red Sox. 8 earned runs...but even worse, the team battled for him all night, taking the lead 3 times...and he coughed it up.. Beckett is the goat...end of story.

[a700hitter]

Are you really trying to aver that the lack of Manny is the only major problem with this lineup right now?

 

The Red Sox have a popgun lineup because of injuries and age-related decline to 4 different players who are not named Manny Ramirez (but are instead named J. D. Drew, David Ortiz, Mike Lowell, and Jason Varitek).

 

Anyone who loses 4 of their big bats from a year ago is going to struggle to score runs.

Drew sucked in 2007. When was the last time Varitek was an offensive force for the Sox. Lowell was so good in 2007 once he was put behind the two boppers. What do you think the lineup would be like without Manny and Ortiz. Have you ever seen a righty/lefty combo as good as Manny and Ortiz. I am hard pressed to think of any RH hitter better than Manny. Removing him from the lineup immediately made it a less threatening lineup. When the Sox got him, he immediately transformed the team into any offensive team.

[schillingouttheks]

Lester sucked tonight....if Beckett had only sucked like Lester did tonight....the Red Sox would be up 2-1. I am telling you that was one of the worst post-season performances in the history of the Boston Red Sox. 8 earned runs...but even worse' date=' the team battled for him all night, taking the lead 3 times...and he coughed it up.. Beckett is the goat...end of story.[/quote']

 

Dude, chill out. It's not the end of the world. They're still in this thing.

 

I pray that this thing gets to 6 games and Beckett gets the opportunity to shut people like you up. I understand the frustration, but Jesus, step away from the ledge...

[Fr0s3n]

Ortiz.

 

:thumbsup:

[BSN07]

May I remind everyone that during both Sox title runs, they've never won a game 3 in the ALCS.

 

Beckett being hurt sucks. Papi isn't the Papi of old and Manny isn't hitting behind him. Tek has been awful with the bat all season, why would this change now? Ellsbury has been up and down all season long, Maybe Coco sees more playing time, but he is not the savior. Maybe a lineup shuffle is do. But to stat Masterson needs to start shows you know absolutely nothing about how this games played and how pitchers are worked. This isn't sandlot where anyone can jump there and pitch long into games after being a reliever for the better part of a season.

[Dojji]

Drew sucked in 2007. When was the last time Varitek was an offensive force for the Sox. Lowell was so good in 2007 once he was put behind the two boppers. What do you think the lineup would be like without Manny and Ortiz. Have you ever seen a righty/lefty combo as good as Manny and Ortiz. I am hard pressed to think of any RH hitter better than Manny. Removing him from the lineup immediately made it a less threatening lineup. When the Sox got him' date=' he immediately transformed the team into any offensive team.[/quote']

 

Drew did nopt suck in 2007. He didn't justify his salary in the regular season but he was about average for a RF.

 

Jason Varitek had a ~.750 OPS just last year and a .350 OBP. For a catcher, that qualifies as being an offensive contributor.

 

Manny was replaced with Jason Bay who has been one of the offensive bright spots in this postseason. I refuse to believe that taking Bay out of this lineup and replazing him with Ramirez is the answer here. THere are too many other issues right now.

 

Ortiz. Is. HURT. Expecting that if you put Ramirez behind him in the lineup the old Papi magic would return is asinine. Esoecially because he had Manny behind him for the early part of this year and he SLUMPED. Like as in the worst slump we've ever had to watch Big Papi experience.

 

Let go of the Manny thing, dude. It is not the issue here.

[rician blast]

Last night's game didn't bother me much, Garza pitched well, the offense is struggling, that stuff happens.

 

Game 2 is the game they shoulda won...if Becks pitches even "fair" the Red Sox win...and if the Red Sox took advantage of some late game guys on, they win.

 

I really think this team is just a bit too banged up to play as well as they're capable...but ya still can't count them out here, Wake could pitch well, the O could light up Sonnentits, and then it's a new series. Not counting on it, but ya never know.

[BoSox21]

Like I said in the game thread, you can't act like the sky is falling when one game completely turns this series around. I'm seeing a lot of talk here that should be reserved for if we go down 3-1.

 

Just like Wakefield is the starter who's most likely to get bombed in any potential outing, he's also the guy who, besides Lester, has the most potential to pitch 8 shutout innings