Manny Ramirez Trade Deadline Thread (renamed)

[Jayhawk Bill]

Exactly. This was an effort to save this year's chance to contend (the FO had obviously become very concerned that Manny would single-handedly derail any chance the team had this year) while making an even stronger push next year.

 

I've held off comment on this trade until now, but I agree exactly and completely with this post, RB. I could get into contract net values, marginal values of players to varying teams and such to defend my position, but you've nailed my conclusion.

 

I expect that the players traded away by Theo will exceed the value of Jason Bay to Boston both in 2008 and over the duration of their obligations. I also believe that the trade puts an above-average RH power hitter into Manny's spot for 1.3 seasons while dealing away no other prospect who appeared to have a future in Boston, regardless of their long-term potential.

 

Good, not great, trade. Stand by for criticism as Bay struggles in the AL East and as Manny destroys the NL West.

[MANNYHOF24]

Anybody know if Bay will be in the lineup tonight?

[BoSox21]

Anybody know if Bay will be in the lineup tonight?

 

I see no reason why he wouldn't be.

[BoSox21]

Good, not great, trade. Stand by for criticism as Bay struggles in the AL East and as Manny destroys the NL West.

 

Those expecting Bay to come in and produce like Manny has are completely missing the point of this trade. With Bay, you'll get better defense, better base-running, effort at all times and a better clubhouse.

[Jayhawk Bill]

With Bay' date=' you'll get better defense...[/quote']

 

A caution: the stats should show this over time, but Bay doesn't know the Green Monster and he's a below-average outfielder adjusting to a new, high-pressure situation. I expect adverse comments over the first month from people who didn't realize how bad Manny was as Bay makes an error or two getting acclimated.

[BoSox21]

A caution: the stats should show this over time' date=' but Bay doesn't know the Green Monster and he's a below-average outfielder adjusting to a new, high-pressure situation. I expect adverse comments over the first month from people who didn't realize how bad Manny was as Bay makes an error or two getting acclimated.[/quote']

 

and what about on the road?

[jacksonianmarch]

Do you have stats to back that assumption up? Just kidding.

 

Bay is a bit like a right handed JD Drew. High BB totals, high K totals, thrived in relative obscurity. I'd expect there to be a bit of culture shock. He's going from a city that didnt even care he existed, to a city where what he ate for breakfast will be headline news.

[Jayhawk Bill]

and what about on the road?

 

Anyplace either the Red Sox or the Yankees play, the ballpark is filled. There won't be a Green Monster in road games, but it'll still be tough.

[riverside sluggers]

Do you have stats to back that assumption up? Just kidding.

 

Bay is a bit like a right handed JD Drew. High BB totals, high K totals, thrived in relative obscurity. I'd expect there to be a bit of culture shock. He's going from a city that didnt even care he existed, to a city where what he ate for breakfast will be headline news.

 

Its the only thing he's known. Cup of coffee with the Padres then the rest with the Pirates. Him going from the worst team in more than a decade to now one of the best in a playoff push, plus a better park can only get him higher

 

IMO, Hansen will indeed find more success in Pittsburgh than he ever would have in Boston. He needed to be sent to a place where there isnt much pressure on you right away. And Moss he gets sent to a team that will allow him a chance to be a starting outfielder. Same situation with David Murphy last season

[inkman]

Pete Sheppard would suck here

 

As he does everywhere else.

[example1]

A caution: the stats should show this over time' date=' but Bay doesn't know the Green Monster and he's a below-average outfielder adjusting to a new, high-pressure situation. I expect adverse comments over the first month from people who didn't realize how bad Manny was as Bay makes an error or two getting acclimated.[/quote']

 

A good chance for Ellsbury to flex some fielding muscle though. I've seen him back up a number of plays very well. Backing up plays doesn't seem like that big a deal, but his speed allows him to be there as soon as the ball is missed/not gotten to, and provides a safety net in that regard.

 

I like the defensive makeup of this team right now quite a bit, especially on the road.

[BoSox21]

would there really be a huge learning curve in playing the monster? im sure Bay will be used to it after about a week. Ramirez's ability to play the monster has always been overrated in my opinion, ive seen a bunch of left fielders come in and play the monster just as well as Manny

[YAZMAN]

Exactly. This was an effort to save this year's chance to contend (the FO had obviously become very concerned that Manny would single-handedly derail any chance the team had this year) while making an even stronger push next year.

 

Clearly this was the execution of Henry & Co.'s five year plot to run Manny the Mutt out of town using their little toy Theopuppet.

 

 

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Fine, let me revise my post.

 

He was traded to the Pirates and during this time was paid a salary that would have him be described as cost controlled and therefore the Pirates had no reason to deal him.

 

Since he is a FA after 2009, they didn't want to pay the money and looked to get something for him.

 

I was wrong about who drafted him, but the main point is that the biggest reason Bay has only played for the Pirates is because he was their best player and was not expensive with respect to his production.

 

Or is that too difficult for you to grasp?

 

Well, I just figured that since you're such a smart ass you would at least know who drafted the guy. He also spent some major league time with the Padres, just so you know.

 

 

So, to recap:

 

You thought signing Keith Foulke was bad because he struggled in 2005, completely ignoring the fact that he destroyed his pitching arm and knees during the 2004 playoff run - one that culminated in an incredible amount of physical stress for Foulke (and the first Sox WS in 86 years).

 

The fact that you would call the Keith Foulke signing a bad one has me scratching my head, not just because mine is a dissenting one but because yours is so spectacularly wrong.

 

Now, your time here has been post after post of embarrassment and low intellect. Remind me again why I should care if you think the way I post is incorrect?

 

I'm not saying you should care. I've just always been of the opinion that message boards are places to enjoy, talk sports (or whatever topic the forum represents), and have chill discussions about said topics. Especially since we're all fans of the same team here. For the record, I'm not really concerned about what you consider 'low intellect', nor should any reasonable person on here, because I'm willing that people like yourself who go on internet rampages against those who disagree with you don't have very fulfilling lives off the computer.

 

 

I'm done talking about Foulke. Because every time someone posts a differing opinion on here they get mauled, after a while who gives a f***, you know? Maybe I'll start thinking like everybody else now just to appease you people.

[msubulldogs21]

Manny grounds out to short on the 1st pitch he sees in a Dodger uniform.

[rician blast]

Good, not great, trade. Stand by for criticism as Bay struggles in the AL East and as Manny destroys the NL West.

 

That's a possibility and some will fall into the trap of evaluating the trade based on what Manny does in L.A. vs what Bay does here. Also, some will evaluate the trade based upon whether the Sox and/or the Dodgers make the playoffs, and, if so, how far they go in the playoffs. But here's the thing, IMO:

 

L.A. Manny does not equal Boston Manny. The L.A. Manny is a guy who just got his way, albeit by whining his way out of town, and now needs to finish out the season doing what he does best...hit...then seek the biggest payday possible when he declares for FA.

 

Boston Manny is, or would have been, a guy who was bent out of shape over not getting his way, doesn't care about the team, and quite possibly would have laid down, maybe even dragging down teammates, for the remainder of the season.

 

The Red Sox put up with a lot from Manny, because he could hit. Many of us in these forums deplored Manny's behavior at times, but voiced that we live with it because he hits and helps the team win, that is when he's dialed into the program. Clearly, for the Sox to have chosen now to move him, things must have deteriorated tremendously, so the FO got SOMETHING for him...and that something was Bay, a guy who the Sox, maybe, can still win with.

 

In my estimation this trade has to be evaluated based upon an assumption...and that assumption is that, with a fairly high probability, Boston Manny would have been much less valuable over the remainder of 2008 than he'd been at any time in his Red Sox tenure, anytime in his entire career, considering all elements of his presence (i.e. his complaining, potential feigning of injury, not hustling, taking days off when a tough pitcher was facing the Sox, etc.)...that's the Manny that needs to be compared to Bay.

 

The FO did what they had to do.

[ORS]

I've just always been of the opinion that message boards are places to enjoy' date=' talk sports (or whatever topic the forum represents), and have chill discussions about said topics. Especially since we're all fans of the same team here. For the record, I'm not really concerned about what you consider 'low intellect', nor should any reasonable person on here, because I'm willing that people like yourself who go on internet rampages against those who disagree with you don't have very fulfilling lives off the computer.[/quote']

f*** everyone. What a f***ing stupid ass trade. Wow. I f***in hate the entire FO right now.

********. These are strong words. You apparently are OK with strong words so long as they are on your terms. The thing is, strong words tend to beget strong words.

 

The last sentence is nothing more and self assuring mental masturbation.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Kneejerk stuff. I was pretty pissed about those deals at first but I've softened my stance up a little.

 

********. These are strong words. You apparently are OK with strong words so long as they are on your terms. The thing is, strong words tend to beget strong words.

 

I don't give other posters s*** unless they give me s*** first, if that's what you're getting at. I didn't insult any other posters in those posts you quoted, I was angry as f*** that we gave away Ramirez for Bay, who's not as good as Manny to start with, and we let go of two prospects (one of which I really liked) on top of that (all of this IN MY OPINION for disclaimer purposes). Kilo and example1 came to me and gave me bullcrap, so I just dished it back.

 

I didn't join this place to make enemies or be a hostile prick (or accept stuff from hostile pricks). I came here to talk baseball.

[ORS]

Fair enough, I'll take you at your word.

 

Just so you know, you joined one day before a shitstorm. This place tends to have membership explosions at those times, and many of the members are on their guard, because the membership explosion is primarily people coming to start s***. You were a new guy saying strong things when big news broke. That's akin to walking around the bush with a brown suede jacket and antlers on during deer season. You didn't know that, but it's what happened.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Is it the kind of thing where, since its the trade deadline, fans of other teams join and say s*** about getting the better deal (if we traded with their team)?

[ORS]

It's that, it's Yankee fans coming to gloat, it's people not really interested in being a part of the forum just coming to vent their s***, it's everything.

[example1]

Kilo and example1 came to me and gave me bullcrap, so I just dished it back.

 

Not very well, for what it's worth. I kid, I kid...

 

Look man, I wasn't just trying to give you s***. I was responding to your abundant posts dissing Bay and glorifying Manny, combined with your seeming lack of knowledge about how the franchise works. Instead of saying basically "someone explain to me why this would make ANY sense for the Sox" you were pushing the "s***** trade" line with nothing to back it up.

 

I didn't join this place to make enemies or be a hostile prick (or accept stuff from hostile pricks). I came here to talk baseball.

 

I'm not a hostile prick, and I apologize if you took it that way. ORS is right about your poor timing... you also ran into me as I was getting my talksox legs back under me after a hiatus and your posts were easy pickings.

 

I'm still confident that you misjudged the trade situation, but I hope our brief encounter doesn't turn you off to this site or to me. It's a great site with all types of posters and many different types of arguments and I'm sure we'll agree on things too. For instance, you will struggle to find a bigger Jacoby Ellsbury fan than myself, so we have that in common (I assume, from your name).

 

There's something I like about you... I think you'll learn alot here (and I don't mean from myself) that will make you a very valuable poster. Cheers. :thumbsup:

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

LOL thanks. But now I'm sort of embarassed that I took this thread and made it into an everybody apologize type of thread. I can't win with myself.

[yeszir]

Fair enough, I'll take you at your word.

 

Just so you know, you joined one day before a shitstorm. This place tends to have membership explosions at those times, and many of the members are on their guard, because the membership explosion is primarily people coming to start s***. You were a new guy saying strong things when big news broke. That's akin to walking around the bush with a brown suede jacket and antlers on during deer season. You didn't know that, but it's what happened.

 

Talksox had the highest amount of traffic it has ever had by about 20% on that day.

[msubulldogs21]

Well, Manny just launched one for his first HR in Dodger blue.

[Bostonownsyou]

Well' date=' Manny just launched one for his first HR in Dodger blue.[/quote']

 

Manny being Manny still can't believe we screwed urselves and traded him.

[ORS]

Manny being Manny still can't believe we screwed urselves and traded him.

Yes, Bay has been awful. We're screwed.

[zackredsox]

Manny being Manny still can't believe we screwed urselves and traded him.

 

Your right, Bay sucks dick.

[das11209]

Manny should have a good year feeding on weak NL West pitching. Bay should have a good year too and is probably a better fit in Red Sox than Manny overall. We probably will not have to wonder if Bay feels like playing tonight or will he get into another distracting fight with somebody.

 

I still think Theo totally got screwed with the trade as LA knew Boston had no options. If we give up the same players and Boston gets a good reliever ( like Mahay for Moss rumor) - I would have liked this trade lot better.

[TheKilo]

J_E:

 

I don't care whether or not you agree with my opinion or not. But like ORS said, if you're going to come to the table with those words ("I hate the entire f***in FO"), then you need to do a better job backing up those words.

 

If you want chill, vanilla discussions, that's fine....but if you want something more you need to do a better job defending your argument. Don't get super defensive when people call you out.