Johan Santana

[TheKilo]

3:28 p.m., from Peter Gammons

• The Twins and Red Sox are getting closer to finalizing a Johan Santana deal. Boston has sweetened its offer by adding a fifth player to the the offer -- outfield prospect Ryan Kalish, a ninth-round draft pick in the 2006 out of Red Bank Catholic High School (Shrewsbury, N.J.).

 

Gammons in that ESPN blog.

[BoSox21]

exactly what i was thinking. of course he reserves the right to change his mind but this is the last thing we have heard from santana is it not?

 

any deal the Twins reach would be dependent on that team's ability to negotiate an extension with Santana so the idea of waving the no-trade clause would only present itself if and when an agreement on an extension would be reached. So that being said, I don't see why the Twins should only negotiate with the Yankees and Red Sox

[castigs850]

why bother negotiate with someone when the deal wont got through anyway. if santana is going to block a trade to the team your dealing with then negotiating with them is just a waste of time.

[example1]

Gammons in that ESPN blog.

 

Who would EVER have thought that Kalish was worth throwing into a deal like this? My God...

 

Oh wait...

 

 

Here's what I offer for Santana:

 

Lester, Kalish and Bowden or Masterson.

 

That's a pretty damn nice package. Kalish is young but he projects in the BP article (and other scouting reports I've seen) as very, very good.

 

BP: "A dynamic outfielder capable of 20 home run/40 stolen base campaigns."

 

He's got 5 tools, but is younger than Ellsbury. He ranks above Bowden, who could be a #3 starter (if not better, he's very young), and Lester is a very nice pitcher (combined with Liriano they would be some nasty lefties). I would offer other pieces, but not Ellsbury or Buchholz. Those guys are basically starters at this point and key pieces moving forward. The Sox are going to try to move Coco, for instance, relying on Ellsbury in CF. THeo is already talking about it at the winter meetings, which indicates that Ellsbury is off the table.

 

 

I guess I said that a month ago, on 11/5. To which Jacksonianmarch responded:

 

" that gets a couple snickers and a dial tone when you propose that to Minny."

 

Still snickering?

 

After all the abuse I've taken here for arguing that the sox should hold firm to making this deal happen without Ellsbury, I REALLY hope they get it done as proposed.

 

Lester + Crisp + Masterson + Lowrie + Kalish is a HUGE package of nice players. Crisp would be the CF hold over, Kalish would be the future stud. Lester and Masterson will both be key players, and Lowrie... well, who knows.

[TheKilo]

Who would EVER have thought that Kalish was worth throwing into a deal like this? My God...

 

Oh wait...

 

 

 

I guess I said that a month ago, on 11/5. To which Jacksonianmarch responded:

 

" that gets a couple snickers and a dial tone when you propose that to Minny."

 

Still snickering?

 

After all the abuse I've taken here for arguing that the sox should hold firm to making this deal happen without Ellsbury, I REALLY hope they get it done as proposed.

 

Lester + Crisp + Masterson + Lowrie + Kalish is a HUGE package of nice players. Crisp would be the CF hold over, Kalish would be the future stud. Lester and Masterson will both be key players, and Lowrie... well, who knows.

 

Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on the back.

[BoSox21]

why bother negotiate with someone when the deal wont got through anyway. if santana is going to block a trade to the team your dealing with then negotiating with them is just a waste of time.

 

Remember, Eric Gagne originally said he wouldn't waive his no-trade clause to go to Boston either. The Angels are already a contender who have improved this off-season and if they can give Santana the money he wants, I don't see why he wouldn't wanna go there.

[example1]

Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on the back.

 

Thanks for the concern, please don't pull a muscle taking your foot (or typing hand) out of your mouth.

 

 

Seriously though (because I'm not serious about the above) I didn't hear you laughing at the Kalish proposal I made. Just Jacksonianmarch. You simply said Ellsbury shouldn't be a hold-up at all in the deal and I disagreed, thinking they could put together another nice package if they were determined to keep him. A 5 player deal rather than a 3 player deal is exactly the type of thinking I anticipated if they truly wanted to keep Ellsbury. Otherwise they will ensure they get fair value for him and don't simply treat him as a standard 'prospect'.

[Cocos Disciples]

why bother negotiate with someone when the deal wont got through anyway. if santana is going to block a trade to the team your dealing with then negotiating with them is just a waste of time.

 

Santana said he'd waive it for the Sox, Yanks and Mets.

 

EDIT: I misread that series of posts.

[jacksonianmarch]

Who would EVER have thought that Kalish was worth throwing into a deal like this? My God...

 

Oh wait...

 

 

 

I guess I said that a month ago, on 11/5. To which Jacksonianmarch responded:

 

" that gets a couple snickers and a dial tone when you propose that to Minny."

 

Still snickering?

 

After all the abuse I've taken here for arguing that the sox should hold firm to making this deal happen without Ellsbury, I REALLY hope they get it done as proposed.

 

Lester + Crisp + Masterson + Lowrie + Kalish is a HUGE package of nice players. Crisp would be the CF hold over, Kalish would be the future stud. Lester and Masterson will both be key players, and Lowrie... well, who knows.

 

 

That is what again? A huge package of potentially average to pretty good players. Yes, that is true. No spectacular players going their way. The best potential player is Kalish who hasnt made it out of the short seasons yet. And in terms of you being right, it has more to do with Smith's idiocy than your knowledge.

[TheKilo]

That is what again? A huge package of potentially average to pretty good players. Yes' date=' that is true. No spectacular players going their way. The best potential player is Kalish who hasnt made it out of the short seasons yet. And in terms of you being right, it has more to do with Smith's idiocy than your knowledge.[/quote']

 

What exactly are you bitching about?

[rician blast]

Here's what I offer for Santana:

 

Lester, Kalish and Bowden or Masterson.

 

That's a pretty damn nice package. Kalish is young but he projects in the BP article (and other scouting reports I've seen) as very, very good.

 

BP: "A dynamic outfielder capable of 20 home run/40 stolen base campaigns."

 

Dude, your proposed deal above is pretty far off from what supposedly is on the table now as you excluded Crisp and said "Bowden OR Masterson." You proposed 1 24 yr old lefty and 2 prospects...and the deal now sits as that lefty, a strong defensive CF and possibly 3 prospects.

 

Jacksonian is correct, your proposed deal would have returned little and is not representative of the deal allegedly in place.

 

But keep patting yourself if you like.

[YAZMAN]

Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on the back.

 

I don't think it was a muscle he was pulling when he wrote that.

[example1]

Dude, your proposed deal above is pretty far off from what supposedly is on the table now as you excluded Crisp and said "Bowden OR Masterson." You proposed 1 24 yr old lefty and 2 prospects...and the deal now sits as that lefty, a strong defensive CF and possibly 3 prospects.

 

Jacksonian is correct, your proposed deal would have returned little and is not representative of the deal allegedly in place.

 

But keep patting yourself if you like.

 

I would rather be off on the smaller prospects and mlb replacements (Lowrie and Crisp) than being willing to sell whatever it takes to get Santana. Just throw Ellsbury in there, why don't we?

 

I proposed two pitchers and the CF prospect that are likely to be in a deal--if one happens--I left out Crisp because either a) he was a given, or I simply don't care very much if he leaves and I left out Lowrie because he is a very small piece. It seems to me that predicting that a package centered around those two pitchers (Masterson and Lester) and a CF prospect with a high upside (Kalish) was more spot on than any of the garbage that has come about about "It's a no-brainer to trade Buchholz" or "it's a no-brainer to trade Ellsbury".

 

Sour grapes, if you ask me.

[yankeessuck013]

The Yankees final offer is as Follows

 

Hughes/Melky/Marquez (SP)/A.Gonzalaz (SS)

[god is a redsox FAN]

The Twins and Angels continue to talk about a Johan Santana trade. Many of the same players mentioned in the Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes -- Howie Kendrick, Brandan Wood, Nick Adenhart, and possibly Jeff Mathis or Reggie Willits -- would be included in a package for Santana.

ESPN Blog

[yankeessuck013]

i doubt the angels give up 2 of the 3 of wood, weaver, and adenhart.

AND sign him to 6 yrs/150 mil.

[redsoxrules]

http://mvn.com/mlb-redsox/2007/12/04/framework-complete-johan-santana-a-red-sox/

 

framework complete!

[TedWilliams101]

I'll believe it when it is officially announced. I don't want to get my hopes up.

[TheKilo]

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

 

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.

 

Baseball Prospectus

[god is a redsox FAN]

wait.... a center fielder??? But not specific?

[TheKilo]

wait.... a center fielder??? But not specific?

 

I have to assume it's Crisp based off of what Theo has said.

 

UNLESS it's Ellsbury and we get something back from Minny.

[TedWilliams101]

I really really really don't want to part ways with Ellsbury, so lets hope it is still Crisp.

[TheKilo]

I really really really don't want to part ways with Ellsbury' date=' so lets hope it is still Crisp.[/quote']

 

What if Pat Neshek comes back in the deal?

[cam780]

This is the exciting part. Unfortunately basically everything had to happen on the day I returned to work after a two week vacation but this deal sounds strong to me. Its not the knockdown sure fire win for the Sox when you include Kalish.

 

Whenever you deal with prospects, you're dealing with potential but Lester is probably a strong 2 or 3 potentially as soon as this year. Crisp is an average center fielder that is cheap and has some rebound potential and again will hold the fort for Kalish who has legit star potential and could have a better career than Ellsbury. If Pridie is ready next year, they can then move Crisp because he's still good and cheap for another need. Lowrie could be a strong second basemen and contribute next year. Masterson could also contribute next year.

 

Meanwhile the Sox give up a portion of their future but they fall far short of selling the farm - Crisp has to go if Ellsbury stays, Lester is replaced by Santana, Kalish could've been your right fielder once Drew moves on but you have Reddick, Lin and Place who could develop and fill that need. Lowrie was blocked by Pedroia and Lugo with Middlebrooks, Dent, and Tejeda in the pipeline. Masterson is in but then you have Bowden, and Hagadone as possiblities at the back end of the rotation. I may be overvaluing the Sox prospects but I would think at this point even if the Yanks came back with Kennedy this offer is stronger.

 

Lastly, don't you get the sense that Hank's bravado probably cost him on this one? Its one thing not giving up the farm but his brashness and stuborness have seemingly put him at odds with the team that has the guy that he really wants that he had a better than average chance to get since the only other team that could legitmately compete was the Sox? Haren isn't coming any cheaper and with his price tag there will be alot more teams at the table.

[example1]

What if Pat Neshek comes back in the deal?

 

What if Ellsbury just stays in Boston, and we get a great deal for one of the best pitchers in baseball? Of course, Neshek would be fine too!

 

:thumbsup:

[jacksonianmarch]

so now Lowrie is out of the package? That makes no sense.

[TheKilo]

so now Lowrie is out of the package? That makes no sense.

 

You don't know who the CF is so wait on it before making these claims.

[ksushi]

no one is really picking this up. BP is the only place ive been seeing it. lets hope this gets picked up by espn soon

[yankeessuck013]

post on nyyfans that "Santana just got traded for Jeff Weaver and Howie Kendrick"

[ksushi]

I think thats decently doubtful. Thats the problem with the winter meetings. Everyone can go and hang out in the lobby, I have friends who've done it, and rumors get thrown around like crazy. Almost nothing is believable. Even Gammons has eaten his words thrice since getting there.