Johan Santana

[TheKilo]

The more I think about it' date=' the more I think the Santana deal shouldn't happen if Ellsbury is the bait. [/quote']

 

Why?

 

If we don't do the trade, we still have a long term rotation of Beckett, Matsuzaka, Lester and Buchholz. That's fine by me. We have Schill and Wake next year, and we can always sign a free agent stud next winter.

 

Maybe. What free agent is out there to be had at this point?

 

 

We can trade Coco mid-season, or put him in center and move Jacoby to RF if Drew stinks up the joint again. Bottom line: Keep Ellsbury.

 

Jacoby doesn't have the defense for RF. If the Santana deal doesn't get done, Crisp will be moved for bench or bullpen help.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

How mentally weak do you think Beckett is? He's a big boy' date=' he can handle situations like these.[/quote']

 

You're right...professional athletes never have big egos. My bad.

[god is a redsox FAN]

so what I'm getting from ESPN, and this site, the deal looks to be dead because we won't give up Ellsbury and Lester? Well what if we do give up lester and Ellsbury, and use Coco as trade bait for another Center Fielder? Andruw Jones anyone?!?!

[Cocos Disciples]

Jones is a FA, so we can't trade for him. That and he sucks and would cost way more than he's worth. Anyway, why trade both of our good CFs away so we can sign a mediocre one for a lot more? Makes no sense.

[TheKilo]

You're right...professional athletes never have big egos. My bad.

 

Answer my question instead of taking that way out.

 

You think Beckett is mentally weak? That he has an ego? Tell me why.

[TheKilo]

so what I'm getting from ESPN' date=' and this site, the deal looks to be dead because we won't give up Ellsbury and Lester? Well what if we do give up lester and Ellsbury, and use Coco as trade bait for another Center Fielder? Andruw Jones anyone?!?! [/quote']

 

Yeah, what CD said, because this post makes my brain hurt.

 

I think we should trade for that guy on Gardner-Webb.

[CrespoBlows]

You're right...professional athletes never have big egos. My bad.

 

I understand that it could piss Beckett off, but what will be the result of that? Is Beckett that fragile that his performance will suffer, because of Santana?

 

If anything, it'll be a spring board for Beckett to get his $20 million a year.

[CrespoBlows]

so what I'm getting from ESPN' date=' and this site, the deal looks to be dead because we won't give up Ellsbury and Lester? Well what if we do give up lester and Ellsbury, and use Coco as trade bait for another Center Fielder? Andruw Jones anyone?!?! [/quote']

 

You need to leave Kentucky. ASAP.

[god is a redsox FAN]

Well i don't see crisp as a "good" Center Fielder... i see him as a defensive guru, but with the bat he wasn't anything. When Ellsbury came in against Cleveland we took off. I'm not saying it was Crisps fault for sure, but it seems pretty ironic. I just think locking up Santana would be a huge pick up for us seeing the Tigers new Rotation and Line up. And I am almost willing to give up Ellsbury and Lester for him.

[TheKilo]

Well i don't see crisp as a "good" Center Fielder... i see him as a defensive guru' date=' but with the bat he wasn't anything. When Ellsbury came in against Cleveland we took off. I'm not saying it was Crisps fault for sure, but it seems pretty ironic. I just think locking up Santana would be a huge pick up for us seeing the Tigers new Rotation and Line up. And I am almost willing to give up Ellsbury and Lester for him.[/quote']

 

Crisp is a good center fielder. Defense is half the game.

 

Ellsbury came in and had a few games, but where did he play a vital role? Drew's GS won Game 6, Pedroia won Game 7, he was hitless in the 13-1 game, he didn't score in Game 2, he gave us insurance in Game 3, and he scored the first run in game 4.

 

And that's not irony, either.

[god is a redsox FAN]

Defense is half the game, but Ellsbury can do things Crisp can do in the field. And if he can't do it all now, in good time he will be. Like I have seen other's said, giving up Crisp to the twins with Lester to Twins is like a bonus to us.

[CrespoBlows]

Defense is half the game' date=' but Ellsbury can do things Crisp can do in the field. And if he can't do it all now, in good time he will be. Like I have seen other's said, giving up Crisp to the twins with Lester to Twins is like a bonus to us.[/quote']

 

Are you intentionally being stupid?

[god is a redsox FAN]

let me ask this... if angels get into this with Santana now that Cabrera is a Tiger, do you think Sox will offer up Lester and Ellsbury to get him?

[TheKilo]

let me ask this... if angels get into this with Santana now that Cabrera is a Tiger' date=' do you think Sox will offer up Lester and Ellsbury to get him?[/quote']

 

No.

[Cocos Disciples]

Probably not. Why would the Angels feel more inclined to get Santana now that they can't get Cabrera? One's a hitter, one's a pitcher.

[TheKilo]

Johan Santana’s agent, Peter Greenberg, spoke to a small group of reporters in the lobby today. He said, “[We’re] just waiting and watching ‘SportsCenter’ and reading what you guys are writing. “Everything seems to change on a daily basis.” As to why a deal for his client hadn’t been completed yet, Greenberg said, “I don’t know. I thought it would have been done already. I think everybody did. I guess Bill [smith, Twins GM] hasn’t gotten what he feels is fair value.” Asked if the Yankees were out of it, he said: “That’s we’re reading.” Asked if the Mets were in it, he said: “That’s what we’re hearing.” The agent would "rather not say at this point” if Santana has a preferred destination.

 

http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/wm/archives/2007/12/johans_agent_he.html

[god is a redsox FAN]

ok, well i'm still learning...........

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Answer my question instead of taking that way out.

 

You think Beckett is mentally weak? That he has an ego? Tell me why.

 

Are you implying that Beckett DOESN'T have an ego?? You don't carry yourself with his swagger on the mound if you don't. His cockiness and arrogance is what makes him great. He walks to and from the mound with a "f*** you...I'm way better than you" attitude...fans see it and opposing batters see it. Most of the good guys (especially good power guys) exude it...Clemens, Pedro, Unit in his prime. Beckett is no different.

 

Do you ever read Improper Bostonian? They did a whole article on Beckett last year about him owning the town and loving every minute of it. He's the type of guy that basks in the spotlight and wants the brightest lights and the most focus on him. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that...I'm just saying that that is the way that he is.

 

I guess you could play the angle that Santana becoming the #1 will motivate Beckett to pitch even better than he did this year, but I just don't see it happening that way. All of these superstars have some degree of ego. All I'm saying is...I feel like Santana would be more accepting of assuming a #2 role with the defending WS champion than Beckett would be of becoming the #2 to a newcomer on a team that he's been with for 2 years and earned a ring with (for)...I don't care if that newcomer is Nolan Ryan circa 1973.

 

You disagree?

[ORS]

What about this whole scenario and how it's playing out suggests Santana wants to take a back seat to anyone? Yes, these guys all have egos, it's part of the competitiveness that makes them great to begin with. Their egos should not factor in player personnel decisions because management should be concerned with fielding the best team possible, and that's it. Egos that can't handle that truth aren't worth keeping around because they will inhibit overall team growth.

[ACL BoSox]

in the end...

 

it seems as if the twins who wanted to get a deal done, can't make up their minds

 

it's annoying, i know it aint easy, but make a fricken decision, this is annoying

[Rdsxmbnt]

NASHVILLE, Tenn. – The Boston Red Sox reaffirmed their status as the favorites to acquire Johan Santana as the team's top executives Wednesday evening warmed to the idea of trading for the Minnesota Twins ace mere hours questioning the merits of the deal, a source close to the situation said.

 

Red Sox executives, and particularly general manager Theo Epstein, had blanched at giving up four players and paying Santana more than of $20 million a year, the type of contract he will demand to waive his no-trade clause. With the New York Yankees claiming they had dropped out of the Santana sweepstakes, the Red Sox also considered whether it was prudent to give up pitcher Jon Lester or center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury, the proposed centerpieces of the deal.

 

Internal discussion has affirmed that it is, though there is no timetable on the talks, and they could well last past baseball's winter meetings, which end following the Rule 5 draft Thursday morning.

 

The parameters of the trade have not changed, according to the source, with Lester heading a package that also would include center fielder Coco Crisp and minor-league pitcher Justin Masterson and infielder Jed Lowrie.

 

Seattle briefly emerged as a candidate, center fielder Adam Jones and pitcher Brandon Morrow the main chips in the Mariners' offer, but talks there have stagnated, as they did with the Los Angeles Angels.

 

The Red Sox, meanwhile, have weighed the implications of Santana's salary demands and seem ready to move forward. Santana, a two-time Cy Young award winner, would join a rotation with this year's Cy Young runner-up, Josh Beckett, Curt Schilling, Daisuke Matsuzaka and either Tim Wakefield or Clay Buchholz, the right-hander Boston has refused to include in any trade negotiations.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-santanaupdate120507&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[bostonfan32]

The way I see it.

 

1) The Twins almost have to deal Santana for many reasons. a) It is unrealistic for them to make the playoffs with Detroit vastly improved and the Guardians in their division. If they let Santana walk, they get 2 1st round picks, but they most likely won't end up as good as the packages any team is offering. c) They have many holes to fill and the Sox prospects are good and inexpensive.

 

2) The Twins don't have much leverage since no team is "really into" Santana as much as the Sox, and they have the best offer now. Since they are trying to squeeze Ellsbury and Lester out of the Sox, they act like they won't deal him. The Sox know this so they are standing pat. Which is why it wouldn't surprise me to see this deal happen next week when there aren't 1000 reporters annoying them.

 

3) The Sox have a good package. Look, for most all-star pitchers, it is a top prospect and then a mid level one. Ramirez and Sanchez for Beckett. They also got Mota and Lowell which is why they gave up more. Pavano and Armas Jr. for Martinez. Also, these guys were under contract for awhile, unlike Santana, who you have to fork over 100+ million. Lester=Top lefty pitching prospect who could be a potential #2, Masterson=Potential #3-4 Derek Lowe type. Coco is a gold glove caliber CF, who could turn his offense around in Minny. And Kalish is unknown at this point.

 

4) For the Sox side, I am sorry, I'd deal Ellsbury AND Lester for Santana. As fun as Ellsbury is to watch, he isn't going to win a WS title unlike Santana could. We are over obsessed with him. What if he hits .258 next season and Lester goes Craig Hansen on us and posts a 4.9 ERA while Santana wins a Cy Young and goes 20-7 with a 2.22 ERA?

[cam780]

The way I see it.

 

1) The Twins almost have to deal Santana for many reasons. a) It is unrealistic for them to make the playoffs with Detroit vastly improved and the Guardians in their division. If they let Santana walk, they get 2 1st round picks, but they most likely won't end up as good as the packages any team is offering. c) They have many holes to fill and the Sox prospects are good and inexpensive.

 

2) The Twins don't have much leverage since no team is "really into" Santana as much as the Sox, and they have the best offer now. Since they are trying to squeeze Ellsbury and Lester out of the Sox, they act like they won't deal him. The Sox know this so they are standing pat. Which is why it wouldn't surprise me to see this deal happen next week when there aren't 1000 reporters annoying them.

 

3) The Sox have a good package. Look, for most all-star pitchers, it is a top prospect and then a mid level one. Ramirez and Sanchez for Beckett. They also got Mota and Lowell which is why they gave up more. Pavano and Armas Jr. for Martinez. Also, these guys were under contract for awhile, unlike Santana, who you have to fork over 100+ million. Lester=Top lefty pitching prospect who could be a potential #2, Masterson=Potential #3-4 Derek Lowe type. Coco is a gold glove caliber CF, who could turn his offense around in Minny. And Kalish is unknown at this point.

 

4) For the Sox side, I am sorry, I'd deal Ellsbury AND Lester for Santana. As fun as Ellsbury is to watch, he isn't going to win a WS title unlike Santana could. We are over obsessed with him. What if he hits .258 next season and Lester goes Craig Hansen on us and posts a 4.9 ERA while Santana wins a Cy Young and goes 20-7 with a 2.22 ERA?

 

I agree 100%. I think the issue is everyone the Twins are dealing with is getting tired of waiting and trying to pry more either accept the offer or deny it but at this point I think its very difficult for the Twins to keep him - not because of payroll or return on investment but because at this point he has to be checked out on the team.

 

Also, my opinion on Beckett and ego has changed slightly. Rob Bradford on Sports Tonight mentioned that the money wouldn't be the issue but he did mention something that caught my attention that I think was lost slightly on the panel - he said there's no question that I'm the opening day starter. So while Santana's contract may not be an issue, Beckett's status as the teams #1 option is something that he obviously values. I wouldn't doubt if the Sox have had some conversations with Beckett about the deal.

 

I still don't think this thing gets done but this post is heading toward uncharted territory - 1000 posts. Goodbye, Mark Bellhorn.

 

PS - 4.9 isn't exactly a stretch for Lester, he's been in the mid-4's both years he's been here.

[Taliesin]

Are you implying that Beckett DOESN'T have an ego?? You don't carry yourself with his swagger on the mound if you don't. His cockiness and arrogance is what makes him great. He walks to and from the mound with a "f*** you...I'm way better than you" attitude...fans see it and opposing batters see it. Most of the good guys (especially good power guys) exude it...Clemens, Pedro, Unit in his prime. Beckett is no different.

 

Do you ever read Improper Bostonian? They did a whole article on Beckett last year about him owning the town and loving every minute of it. He's the type of guy that basks in the spotlight and wants the brightest lights and the most focus on him. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that...I'm just saying that that is the way that he is.

 

I guess you could play the angle that Santana becoming the #1 will motivate Beckett to pitch even better than he did this year, but I just don't see it happening that way. All of these superstars have some degree of ego. All I'm saying is...I feel like Santana would be more accepting of assuming a #2 role with the defending WS champion than Beckett would be of becoming the #2 to a newcomer on a team that he's been with for 2 years and earned a ring with (for)...I don't care if that newcomer is Nolan Ryan circa 1973.

 

You disagree?

 

HOSN...I can't believe you are arguing from the position of PWWB. You are clearly wrong and I'll write a 400 page essay as to why when I don't have a life. WARP and VORP are obviously the factors that are most important to those WDWB and live in their mom's BM.

 

Yeah...exactly. The boy has cojones and I don't think he cares if Jesus Christ took over the supposed 1 position. He wants to prove himself for himself. It's academic. They aren't willing to play and the Tigers deal (as I said last night before the pundits) screwed the pooch on this one. I'm fine with it.

[schillingouttheks]

The way I see it.

 

1) The Twins almost have to deal Santana for many reasons. a) It is unrealistic for them to make the playoffs with Detroit vastly improved and the Guardians in their division. If they let Santana walk, they get 2 1st round picks, but they most likely won't end up as good as the packages any team is offering. c) They have many holes to fill and the Sox prospects are good and inexpensive.

 

2) The Twins don't have much leverage since no team is "really into" Santana as much as the Sox, and they have the best offer now. Since they are trying to squeeze Ellsbury and Lester out of the Sox, they act like they won't deal him. The Sox know this so they are standing pat. Which is why it wouldn't surprise me to see this deal happen next week when there aren't 1000 reporters annoying them.

 

3) The Sox have a good package. Look, for most all-star pitchers, it is a top prospect and then a mid level one. Ramirez and Sanchez for Beckett. They also got Mota and Lowell which is why they gave up more. Pavano and Armas Jr. for Martinez. Also, these guys were under contract for awhile, unlike Santana, who you have to fork over 100+ million. Lester=Top lefty pitching prospect who could be a potential #2, Masterson=Potential #3-4 Derek Lowe type. Coco is a gold glove caliber CF, who could turn his offense around in Minny. And Kalish is unknown at this point.

 

4) For the Sox side, I am sorry, I'd deal Ellsbury AND Lester for Santana. As fun as Ellsbury is to watch, he isn't going to win a WS title unlike Santana could. We are over obsessed with him. What if he hits .258 next season and Lester goes Craig Hansen on us and posts a 4.9 ERA while Santana wins a Cy Young and goes 20-7 with a 2.22 ERA?

 

1) I agree on all accounts except for where you say they can't contend. They have a good rotation where Garza is being replaced by the returning Francisco Liriano. If they add a little bit of pop to the order (like they have with Delmon Young), they can cause problems for some teams.

 

2) I agree that they probably want to get a deal like this done when they have a bit more privacy, but the Twins don't have to give Santana up. They can still get something for him at the trading deadline if they're not satisfied with what they're seeing now. It's certain that a contending team will inquire about him at the deadline - and even then, maybe the Twins WILL be contending. If that other team that comes to the Twins is serious about winning it all in '08, then they may just pony up the prospects for the banner that they want. As far as the picks go, though, won't they get 2 picks if another team signs him anyway, since he's obviously going to be a type-A free agent?

 

3) Yes, they've put together a nice package. But we're talking about the best pitcher on the planet right now, and if the Twins are even slightly hesitating at what they might receive, then I don't blame them for balking. Whenever you trade for top-quality prospects, you're trading for question marks with high ceilings. The question isn't whether or not they're going to get a good prospect, but how much faith they have in whether or not the prospect will find success. As far as those deals you mentioned go - at the time, those pitchers weren't the best on the planet. Damn good, but not as good as Santana. We're talking about a proven, year-in and year-out, dominant starter that is in the Cy Young race every year. His credentials at this point are a bit more impressive than those of the other two at the time of their deals to the Sox.

 

4) This is where I don't agree with you as much. The Red Sox do not have a desperate need for Santana. Sure, he'd be AMAZING to have, but the Red Sox are ALREADY arguably the best team in baseball. They're the defending world champs, and basically the same team. Santana to the Red Sox is just gravy - a damn lot of it, but the Sox do not need him as much as some people make it out to be. I do not trade Lester and Ellsbury for him in the same package.

[cam780]

4) This is where I don't agree with you as much. The Red Sox do not have a desperate need for Santana. Sure, he'd be AMAZING to have, but the Red Sox are ALREADY arguably the best team in baseball. They're the defending world champs, and basically the same team. Santana to the Red Sox is just gravy - a damn lot of it, but the Sox do not need him as much as some people make it out to be. I do not trade Lester and Ellsbury for him in the same package.

 

There seem to be alot of people that feel this way but if the deal is say Ellsbury, Lester, and Lowrie what is it the Sox are really giving up? Ellsbury would hurt because represents a strong improvement over Crisp but with Lester you're talking about the fifth starter in a rotation that contains two established aces and two more potential aces and you can assume over the next two years Masterson, Bowden or Hagadone will make a pretty solid if not above average fifth starter. I don't make a four or five player deal with both in it but I'd include both for the best player in baseball because even after giving away the #2 and 3 prospects and Lester the organizations success with the draft has lent itself to a deep farm system. There would still be plenty of talent left in the farm system.

[Jayhawk Bill]

There seem to be alot of people that feel this way but if the deal is say Ellsbury' date=' Lester, and Lowrie what is it the Sox are really giving up? [/quote']

 

Ummmm...Ellsbury, Lester and Lowrie?

 

Just because Lester can be replaced by Santana doesn't discount that he deserved a spot in a pitching-strong World Series team's World Series rotation. Jim Callis was quoted earlier in this thread as considering Lowrie to be ROY Dustin Pedroia with more power. Jacoby Ellsbury his over .350 last year with Boston and he's been rated at over 10,000 VORP thus far this off-season (VORP: Volunteers Offering Reproductive Privileges).

 

These are three solid MLB-caliber players with significant upside. If Boston gives them up, they're a weaker team. Injuries happen; more importantly, once these players are traded, they can't be traded again. Every team always needs better pitching; Boston looks a little weak at backup catcher and shortstop, last I checked. Players traded for Johan Santana can't be sent elsewhere; dollars used for Johan Santana can't be used elsewhere.

[cam780]

Ummmm...Ellsbury, Lester and Lowrie?

 

Just because Lester can be replaced by Santana doesn't discount that he deserved a spot in a pitching-strong World Series team's World Series rotation. Jim Callis was quoted earlier in this thread as considering Lowrie to be ROY Dustin Pedroia with more power. Jacoby Ellsbury his over .350 last year with Boston and he's been rated at over 10,000 VORP thus far this off-season (VORP: Volunteers Offering Reproductive Privileges).

 

These are three solid MLB-caliber players with significant upside. If Boston gives them up, they're a weaker team. Injuries happen; more importantly, once these players are traded, they can't be traded again. Every team always needs better pitching; Boston looks a little weak at backup catcher and shortstop, last I checked. Players traded for Johan Santana can't be sent elsewhere; dollars used for Johan Santana can't be used elsewhere.

 

Yep I set myself up for that one.

 

They're all talented players and if we lose them it does hurt the organization as a whole more than the on field team. None of the three pieces in my deal contributed in the first half of the season when the Sox built the 11 game lead in the division.

 

Yes short is an issue but I personally am not convinced that we saw the best of Lugo and even if we haven't it will be difficult to move him if he doesn't reestablish himself next year. And that doesn't actually factor that Lowrie profiles more at second based on his so-so defense. The reason why I basically consider him a spare part is because in 3 years you will probably have 5 guys ready to play for four infield positions - Middlebrooks, Anderson, Lowrie, Pedroia and Youk now alot can happen between now and then with Middlebrooks and Anderson but if Lowrie isn't in the equation than you can play Middlebrooks at short move youk to third and slot anderson at 1st and if he doesn't pan out than you have Dent and Tejeda that could be in line right after him and there's always FA options.

 

Lester was amazing in the WS but throughout the course of his first two seasons he has been somewhat inconsistent. He has great potential and I think he could slot as a #2 without much of a stretch but his ceiling is probably about 75% of what Santana is.

 

Ellsbury hurts the most because on Opening Day I can see a major difference in production from him to Crisp but that being said I don't think he projects to be the most talented player in the Sox system - I'd day that would probably belong to Kalish or Middlebrooks. But consider this - at the beginning of the year last year our rotation was Beckett - Schilling - Dice.K - Wakefield - Tavarez and we opened up an 11 game lead due to our dominant pitching (and of course injuries to the Blue Jays and Yanks) but now replace Tavarez with Santana - how much better do you think our record would've been? That'sl basically what this trade does.

 

Lastly, as far as the bullpen and bench. I actually think we're pretty all set as far as that goes. Papelbon, Delcarmen, Timlin, Oki, Lopez, Snyder and Tavarez are back and if Masterson isn't dealt he will probably get a call up in the summer from the Pen. We have Cora. I think it would be easy to resign Kielty as a fourth outfielder and if necessary use Dusty Brown / George Kottaras behind Tek but I do think the team will probably resign Mirabelli for another year so there isn't a major need. The backup catcher role is overrated to an extent. If Varitek plays you can almost guarantee it will be here regardless of his production so how much are you willing to give up for a guy who plays 30 games that doesn't throw a fastball?

[example1]

I suppose things are just pretty quiet at this point.

 

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071206/SPORTS/712060385/1007

 

Basically says what many of us are thinking: this is a win-win, particularly if the Yankees are involved.

 

The Sox are like a dog defending a big pile of food; they really can control the discussions. I think they can match or surpass any package of 'specs the Yankees offer, and because of that they can push it just high enough for it to be a net loss for the Yankees even if the Twins accept. Gaining Santana would be huge for the Yankees, but losing Melky, Kennedy and Hughes would be great for the Sox in 6 years, when Hughes is, what, 27?

[Mr Crunchy]

is 04 that long ago?

do we need to revisit how bitter and jealous pedro martinez was when curt took the spotlight away from him??I AM NOT A #2 PITCHER I TAKE A BACK SEAT TO NOBODY said the best pitcher i have ever seen in my life.

this isnt to say that becks wont handle a santana on the staff

he had lots of comptetiion in florida when they had burnett penny and pavano with no issues that i know of

the problem that may occur is he may want to discuss a new contract,a very expensive new contract.....that he earned by the way...

after going 5-0 and being the best pitcher in the game it may be diffiucult for him to accept 1/2 the money or less than 1/2 of what santana gets.

 

he is after all,human

 

the longer this drags on the older carl pohlad gets

did you know that carl pohlad won a bronze star and a purple heart....in the civil war?

kidding but he owns those medals

he was also recruited to play football at usc by........bing crosby