Johan Santana

[yankeessuck013]

i was just quoting an article. calm down.

[god is a redsox FAN]

i am calm, that's why i'm asking mate

[yankeessuck013]

interesting.

 

The Red Sox have told Ryan Kalish’s agent that his client’s name never came up in talks with the Twins.

 

Source: Boston Herald

[yankeessuck013]

Roto:

 

The Boston Herald indicates that the Red Sox and Twins may be through talking for the night.

 

Neither the Twins nor the Red Sox seem to be feeling much sense of urgency here. The Red Sox still don't actually need to make the deal, and the Twins may figure better offers will come along later, though they risk upsetting Johan Santana if they continue to leave everything up in the air. The Herald is also reporting that the Red Sox have told Ryan Kalish’s agent that his client’s name never came up in talks with the Twins, even though he was rumored for most of the day to be in Boston's new 5-for-1 proposal.

 

Can Santana just step in and tell the Twins to get this thing done.

[riverside sluggers]

I heard on WEEI from Tony Maserotti that the Sox would probably start the negotiations at 5 years/$100 million

 

Coming off the books after the 2008 season:

 

--Manny's $20 million (Unless Sox activate option year)

--Curt's expected $8 million (could go higher with incentives)

--Jason Varitek's $10 million (Good chance Varitek will be resigned, but of course for less money)

--Wakefield's $4 million (2008 could be his last year as well)

--Timlin's $3 million

--Alex Cora's $2.25 million

 

That's roughly $47.25- million that is shed, not including any resignings and acquisitions this offseason & midseason

[jacksonianmarch]

47.25 mil, yes, but there will be one open slot in the rotation after Buchholz snags one, an open left field slot, and an open catchers slot. And I am not sure you can totally expect Vtek to take a pay cut with the market the way it is. Lets assume, for one second, that the sox go out and pay 12 mil for a #4 starter and resign Vtek to a 2 yr 20 mil deal. That 27.25 mil will not cover a starting LFer, and Santana. 23-25 of that will be Santana. And a loss of Manny will hurt astronomically.

[rician blast]

Hmm....

 

 

 

That's exactly the package that Example predicted. This is the most recent rumored package I've heard of.

 

I'm not trying to get into the argument, but I'm just sayin' ....

 

For the record, I understand that at the time of this exchange, the package included more.

 

Like I said..then Kudos.

[rician blast]

Here's the viewpoint you're defending. I was right. If I had thrown Place's name, or Lin's name or any other CF name in there I would still have been more right, because, as it appears now, the deal does not require Ellsbury or Buchholz, which was my original point.

 

The Red Sox are, shocking as it may be, capable of making a deal using lower-level guys who have tremendous upside, and the Twins are smart enough--as so many here apparently didn't think they were--to know talent when they see it, and VALUE when they see it.

 

 

Originally I said Lester + Kalish + Bowden or Masterson. By "Bowden or Masterson" I actually meant "Bowden or Masterson" and I have said many times that I think they are very close in value right now, MN can take their pick (I like both). Bowden is clearly a SP, he doesn't maver Masterson's build or sinker, but he does have more polish as a pitcher and, with his increased repetoire, may have more upside if he can produce. Masterson may only be a MR, or may PROJECT to best fit as a MR. He may be closer to the bigs and may fill a role that MN needs (a role that ALL teams need is effective MR). If we get to keep Bowden then GREAT. If we get to keep Masterson then GREAT.

 

I don't have the same ambivalence between Coco and Ellsbury and Kalish. I want Ellsbury out of that group significantly more than the other two.

 

Now, that said, I would still be surprised if this deal went down without Coco. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, as Kalish isn't going to fill CF immediately. Of course, they recently acquired an OF in a trade with TB, so perhaps they feel fulfilled in CF. I don't know

 

 

I was not defending a viewpoint...I was responding to a post of yours that boasted about a prediction that...from the text of YOUR own post...was well short of what even you thought was the deal currently in place. My comments were specifically based on the information you provided, which did not include the passage you're now presenting from Jacksonian, nor what you really meant, etc.

 

Much to do over nothing. Movin' on.

[BudLight]

Buster Olney on Mike and Mike in the Morning today stated he believes this deal between the Sox and Twins for Johan will not get done.

 

IMHO - the Tigers acquiring Cabrera and Willis last night has to play into the thinking now of the Twins GM. That division just got a lot stronger and it may not be in the Twins best interest right now to trade Santana if they want any chance of competing in that division next season. Losing the 15 - 20 wins from Santana would hurt a great deal. While I think Lester has good stuff, I don't believe he is a 15-20 game winner his first year in Minnesota.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Buster Olney on Mike and Mike in the Morning today stated he believes this deal between the Sox and Twins for Johan will not get done.

 

IMHO - the Tigers acquiring Cabrera and Willis last night has to play into the thinking now of the Twins GM. That division just got a lot stronger and it may not be in the Twins best interest right now to trade Santana if they want any chance of competing in that division next season. Losing the 15 - 20 wins from Santana would hurt a great deal. While I think Lester has good stuff, I don't believe he is a 15-20 game winner his first year in Minnesota.

 

Trading Santana doesn't make you "lose" his 15-20 wins...you only lose the win difference between Santana and his replacement. I think Lester can win 12-13 games in Minny...so you're only losing like 7 wins max and your team is in far better position going forward than it would be with one more year of Santana and then a FA departure.

[BSN07]

If Minny is worried over how much stronger there division is getting, then Santana should never have been placed on the market. The fact that they did place him on the block should indicate they don't have much thought of chasing a WS title this yr or the coming yrs.

 

As far as there being no CF in the trade, I doubt it very much. But they did just aquire Young and Caddyer's not too shaby in the field, so maybe they go with one of the two.

 

 

If this deal gets done then so be it, if it doesn't lets kill it soon and move on, my refresh button is wearing out, andI think I'm getting arthritis in my finger joints from all this typing LOL

[ksushi]

I don't think next years division race is factoring into the twins thinking a lot on this one. If anything, the Detroit trade is another reason why it doesn't make sense for them to keep Johan.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

The only affect that trade might have had on the Santana deal is maybe the Twins feel they should be getting much more from the Red Sox then they are. The Tigers gave up 2 big time prospects (It would be like you guys trading Buchholz and Ellsbury) plus 4 other players.

[YAZMAN]

Buster Olney on Mike and Mike in the Morning today stated he believes this deal between the Sox and Twins for Johan will not get done.

 

He also had Mark Loretta going to you guys last Friday.

 

It's really worse than a soap opera.

[rician blast]

The Tigers gave up 2 big time prospects (It would be like you guys trading Buchholz and Ellsbury) plus 4 other players.

 

You can't honestly be saying that Miller + Maybin = Bucholz + Ellsbury

 

Miller 2007 5-5, 5.63ERA, 1.75 WHIP, 10.3H per 9.

 

Upside, certainly, but '07 results are pedestrian at best and that WHIP is horrible.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Yeah' date=' definitely don't see the deal happening w/o a CF.[/quote']

 

Not to post yesterday's news, but this is Will Carroll's exact quote:

 

Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.

 

--Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m. ET

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6970

 

Unlike others, Carroll was discussing a four-for-one rumor. Given that Lester was involved, the fourth was almost certainly Coco Crisp.

[He Hate Me]

I heard on WEEI from Tony Maserotti that the Sox would probably start the negotiations at 5 years/$100 million

 

wouldn't that just be $10M more than what the Twins offered?

[rician blast]

Rotoworld reports now that the Yanks turned down a deal that didn't include Kennedy. Coupled with other revelations such as Kalush, per at least one report, was never mentioned as part of a package, I don't think we can believe anything that is floated out there. There are too many agendas, angles, etc. that are being worked. This has gotten quite old.

[He Hate Me]

Olney and Stark both think Santana to Boston isn't going ot happen anymore according to those watching ESPN2...

 

ok I'm spent...can wejust move on and both teams can agree to egg Bill Smith's house and beat him soundnly with a bat next week?

 

Bill Smith is the biggest tease in the history of the universe. He's the Veronica Lodge of baseball, and the Yanks and Red Sox are the Reggie and Archie of baseball, respectively.

[rician blast]

Bill Smith is the biggest tease in the history of the universe. He's the Veronica Lodge of baseball' date=' and the Yanks and Red Sox are the Reggie and Archie of baseball, respectively.[/quote']

 

I can hear the Dice-man now..."Veronica Lodge....I f***ed 'er."

[He Hate Me]

You can't honestly be saying that Miller + Maybin = Bucholz + Ellsbury

 

Miller 2007 5-5, 5.63ERA, 1.75 WHIP, 10.3H per 9.

 

Upside, certainly, but '07 results are pedestrian at best and that WHIP is horrible.

 

IMO

 

Bucholz>Miller

Maybin>Ellsbury (and I love Ellsbury BTW)

Bucholz=Maybin

 

so yes, I do think that the 2 packages are an equal package.

[He Hate Me]

I can hear the Dice-man now..."Veronica Lodge....I f***ed 'er."

 

wow a Dice Clay reference lol

[rician blast]

IMO

 

Bucholz>Miller

Maybin>Ellsbury (and I love Ellsbury BTW)

Bucholz=Maybin

 

so yes, I do think that the 2 packages are an equal package.

 

Fair enough.

[ksushi]

The reason the Marlins were able to net so much talent in return in that deal is because neither of the players going the other way command 100+ million dollars in an imperitive extension like Johan does. If there is no extension for Johan, there is no deal, so that basically means Johan will be costing the team that gets him at least one premium prospect and then some and a 100+ million dollar commitment over 5+ years. That is why Johan is going to net less talent in return than Cabrera and Willis.

[TheKilo]

I love Miller as a prospect and I feel Maybin is quite overrated.

[BSN07]

wouldn't that just be $10M more than what the Twins offered?

 

For some reason I thought they offered him 4 yrs 80M. I could be wrong tho...

 

Zito got 7yrs/126M,

 

Starting the negotiations around 5 yrs 100M doesn't seem to bad. I think they will settle in between somewhere, thats if the trade happens...

[jacksonianmarch]

IMO

 

Bucholz>Miller

Maybin>Ellsbury (and I love Ellsbury BTW)

Bucholz=Maybin

 

so yes, I do think that the 2 packages are an equal package.

 

Miller's upside tops them all. A 6'6" lefty who can throw high 90s consistently has the upside on anyone.

[das11209]

No Santana update in an hour? You guys are slacking.

 

Appearing on ESPN News Wednesday morning, ESPN.com's Keith Law reported that the Twins have again reached out to the Mets, Angels and Dodgers regarding Johan Santana.

 

The Mets might struggle to beat the Red Sox's reported offerings, but the Dodgers and Angels would have little trouble putting together very attractive packages for Santana if they're serious about acquiring him. With the Yankees' interest potentially gone, the Twins may simply be trying to find another team to play the Red Sox against.

 

[ksushi]

I don't know, maybe not with his command issues.

[He Hate Me]

For some reason I thought they offered him 4 yrs 80M. I could be wrong tho...

 

Zito got 7yrs/126M,

 

Starting the negotiations around 5 yrs 100M doesn't seem to bad. I think they will settle in between somewhere, thats if the trade happens...

 

I saw the same thing about the $80M...later on the Twins apparently upgraded to $90M by some reports.

 

Perosnally I think the negotiations have to start at $126M and then work from there.