Johan Santana

[Jabs]

Wow great now we can speculate what they came up with.

My first guess, Jacoby Ellsbury.

My second guess, a third team involved.

 

I think your right on with your thinking. I'm guessing that if Ellsbury goes, the Sox figure they can live with Coco in CF while keeping Buchholz to replace Schilling or Wake after they are gone? As much as I would hate to see Jacoby go (and worse, having to watch another year of Crisp look clueless at the plate), losing him over Buchholz is probably the lesser of two evils to get Santana.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I know there has been interest throughout the league in Coco Crisp. Minnesota doesn't seem to be too excited about him since they keep asking about Ellsbury.

 

Perhaps the Red Sox can get another team involved by trading Crisp for pieces that interest the Twins.

[Jayhawk Bill]

JAyHAwk' date=' sometimes you just have to give up. Your argument doesn't hold up no matter what kind of numbers you look at. Give it up on this and move on to your usually insightful posts about the issues of the day.[/quote']

 

Failing to conceive of a logical argument beyond your own opinion, you decide to mask defeat by calling for surrender?

 

Melky Cabrera's stats through age 22 are most like those of a set of players including several HOF inductees. The stats of all outfield HOF inductees who started between the early 1960's and the late 1970's are much like Melky Cabrera's through age 22. Even given that, I don't claim that Cabrera is, himself, destined for the HOF. I state that he'll most likely be an All Star.

 

You may choose to disagree: in fact, you have. I disagree with you. I have reasons, clearly stated; you have your opinion.

 

If anybody should "Give it up," that would be you. I would propose, instead, that we record our differences and move on, looking back, perhaps, if Melky Cabrera might either collapse or have a breakthrough season, at which point one or the other of us might clearly have been correct in our foresight.

[TheKilo]

I should probably put this thread on ignore until something actually happens....but the more I think about it the more I may have over-reacted myself.

 

I acknowlege the fact Santana comes with a lot of risk, but if added to this team he would make them WS contenders, like WS favorites, for the next 3-5 years and will help the transition of the Sox rotation when Wakefield and Schilling leave.

 

The packeage as currently constructed is a lot to give up for the best pitcher in baseball. But it's for the best pitcher in baseball. I'd love to add him. But who knows what it will take.

 

And if the Yanks are including Hughes, I might have to say to the Sox that they should hold pat. They did what they needed to do in driving the price of the negotiation to the point where they had to include Hughes or Chamberlain.

 

I still think Ellsbury is being overvalued by a lot of people here, but as it stands right now I'd be very excited to watch him in CF next season.

 

This is my last post in the thread until something substantial happens.

[yankeessuck013]

http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/

 

They are reporting that we put Buchholz in the deal.

[See Red]

http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/

 

They are reporting that we put Buchholz in the deal.

 

I don't believe that for a second. If we did I'll be very disappointed in our front office.

[yankeessuck013]

Again, I do not know how credibile or reliable that site is

[ksushi]

I don't think thats a very reliable source and I also don't think that fits very well with the FO's general philosophy. If we put in Ellsbury or Buchholz it will end up being Ellsbury long before we part with Buch. Not to say we are a lock to trade either, I don't think we are, but if one had to go... I doubt it'd be clay.

[BSN07]

Id say Buccholz being the new addition to the package is iffy, but possible.

 

Maybe Theo has found something for Coco and maybe they turn it around in the deal. Who knows but I hope something solid news wise soon, all this speculation is going to lead to a riot on talksox...

 

...We got ORS fighting with example, we got A700 wanting to keep prospects over a cy young guy, Cats sleeping with Dogs, complete pandimonium!:thumbsup:

[Thumper]

http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/

 

They are reporting that we put Buchholz in the deal.

 

Should this be true, I bite my thumb at Theo.

[Taliesin]

Pavano was once an untouchable "prospect"....seems we got a pretty good guy for him. What was his name again? Right..the greatest pitcher I ever saw in my life.

 

Carl was last heard from speeding down 95 w/ Alyssa Milano and laughing all the way to the bank.

 

They are legion. Brien Taylor. C.B. will go on and have a great career. Maybe.

 

I'll take Santana and keep him out of the Bronx for a pitching potential and some solid possibilities. Yes, thank you. Sorry, I don't have a 4 page long-winded defensive statistically valid response. Not at the cost of our CF though. He should be the only untouchable. Yeah...I'm w/ 700. And, I do know that pitching wins. Particularly w/ the 2 best pitchers in MLB. Too good to be true.

[a700hitter]

Failing to conceive of a logical argument beyond your own opinion' date=' you decide to mask defeat by calling for surrender?[/quote']You do realize that statistics are not a necessary element of a logical argument?

 

Melky Cabrera's stats through age 22 are most like those of a set of players including several HOF inductees. The stats of all outfield HOF inductees who started between the early 1960's and the late 1970's are much like Melky Cabrera's through age 22. Even given that' date=' I don't claim that Cabrera is, himself, destined for the HOF. I state that he'll most likely be an All Star.[/quote']I give up. It is no fun having a discussion with someone who considers his opinion to be infallible. From this point on, when I refer to Melky I will call him "Future Hall of Famer, Melky Cabrera" or "AllStar Melky Cabrera." BTW if you wanted to compare Miggy Cabrera to some HOF careers, I'd give credence to that, because Miggy has some extraordinary accomplishments. Melky';s accomplishments are at best above average, but certainly not extraordinary.

[ARod2212]

My guess is that Kennedy makes it a deal breaker for the Yankees. It was tough enough to get Hughes in the deal, the Yankees will apparently throw a deadline on it once they settle on a prospect. If no deal happens, then they go to Haren. I think this gets done before the meetings, since that is what both teams want. Melky-Hughes-2nd tier prospect is a good package. I hate losing Hughes and Cabrera from a sentimental standpoint, they're really likable players. But from a baseball standpoint, it's really a no-brainer.

 

Santana-Pettitte-Wang-Chamberlain-Mussina/Kennedy

 

I'll be happy with that. Go talk to Andruw Jones and see what he's asking for. No arbitration means no draft picks surrendered. I don't want the Yankees to go into next season with Damon in center.

[Fried Neckbones]

Isn't Pettitte going to retire? That would give you, assuming the deal goes down as you say, Santana-Wang-Joba's 150ish innings-Mussina's 15.00 ERA-Kennedy.

 

:thumbdown for you, :thumbsup: for us.

 

I think the two sides here (Sox and Yanks) are negotiating from different perspectives. The Sox already have a rotation that will be good in 2008, with Beckett, Dice, Schilling, and a better-seasoned Bucholtz, along with Wake and Lester. The Yanks have Wang, Mussina (clearly on the downside of his career), Hughes (coming off an injury and potential velocity decrease), Joba (spent last year in the 'pen, no big league starting experience) and Kennedy and Karstens. They still have Karstens, right? Whatever.

 

The point being, the Sox don't HAVE to go out and get a front-of-the-rotation starter. They can, but it won't kill them if they don't. The way I see it, if the Sox get Santana without losing Bucholtz or Jacoby, awesome. If they make the Yanks overpay, also awesome. Offer a package to Billy Beane for Haren. Or stand pat. I don't see too many downsides to this, other than the Sox giving up Buch AND Jacoby+, and that ain't gonna happen.

[yankeessuck013]

MLB Trade Rumors:

 

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 10:30pm: Yanks and Twins are haggling over the third guy - Twins want Horne or Austin Jackson per Jon Heyman. The Yanks are apparently holding out on that front, trying to retain some dignity. Peter Abraham says the Yanks will also slap a deadline on their offer and then turn their attention to Dan Haren.

 

Concurrently, the Red Sox will only give up Ellsbury if they get more than Santana back. How about making this thing a real blockbuster, getting Joe Nathan involved? Imagine a 7-8-9 combo of Gagne-Nathan-Papelbon (if Gagne were to accept arb). Peter Abraham is saying the Sox aren't serious though.

[Fried Neckbones]

Replace Gagne with Okijima, please, and you've got something there.

 

Unless there is a 10-run difference in the game, and nobody cares about the outcome.

[He Hate Me]

wow if true per ESPN and Red Sox wil get the trade if they include Ellsbury or Clay, then my hats off to your organization. those are guys with great futures but a 1-2-3 of Johan, Josh and Matsuzaka will probably ensure you at leats a few more championships for the foreseeable future. I would do that in a heartbeat.

[yankeessuck013]

The Yankees were hoping their decision Friday to include Phil Hughes in a trade package would seal a deal for Johan Santana, but the Twins weren't wowed by the offer. Instead, they let word leak Saturday that they will be perfectly happy to go into next season with Santana in their starting rotation if they don't get what they want.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/02/2007-12-02_twins_not_wowed_by_phil_hughes_package_w.html

[Gom]

I guess I look at things differently, but if I was the Sox, I would ABSOLUTELY give up Ellsbury or Buchholz.

 

A rotation of Santana, Beckett, Dice-K and Schilling is as close to a guarantee in a championship as you can get. I would do it in a heartbeat if I was you guys.

 

Here's hoping you don't.

[riverside sluggers]

Anyone else getting migraines from these ever changing Johan trade rumor updates in the past 48 hours?

[jacksonianmarch]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/02/2007-12-02_twins_not_wowed_by_phil_hughes_package_w.html

 

It is very interesting how the Twins want to push this thing. In terms of urgency, the only thing that makes this an urgent move from the yankee standpoint is the sox getting him. If the sox are not in line to get him, which our offer would seem to guarantee, then I am okay with them going into the yr as the Twins ace. That being said, the fact that the twins would get Hughes in this deal, plus others is amazing. They wont be able to get such a deal at the break because most likely, Hughes will be a necessary part of our team, as will melky. Right now is the time where we have contingency plans and I have a feeling that the ability to make such a huge move is only doable during the offseason.

[BSN07]

MLB Trade Rumors:

 

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 10:30pm: Yanks and Twins are haggling over the third guy - Twins want Horne or Austin Jackson per Jon Heyman. The Yanks are apparently holding out on that front, trying to retain some dignity. Peter Abraham says the Yanks will also slap a deadline on their offer and then turn their attention to Dan Haren.

 

Concurrently, the Red Sox will only give up Ellsbury if they get more than Santana back. How about making this thing a real blockbuster, getting Joe Nathan involved? Imagine a 7-8-9 combo of Gagne-Nathan-Papelbon (if Gagne were to accept arb). Peter Abraham is saying the Sox aren't serious though.

 

Usually I'm an even keeled guy, but if I see one more Fing jack ass( not singling you out Yankeessuck) pencil's Gagne in to the BP I might just lose my mind... HE IS A FA AND WILL NOT BE PITCHING FOR THE SOX NEXT SEASON, Reason for those who can't seem to get it,

 

1. He wants to close

2. He wants a multi yr deal worth some decent $

3. He pitched like s*** in Boston( I was pulling for him to do well, and he flopped).

4. At this point timlin is the more reliable pitcher........

The only way Gane is back is if he will take a huge lopsided deal that favors the Sox.

 

 

They offered him arb, which is risky if he accepts, but if he really wants to close and he leaves atleast we get a pick...

[cam780]

I have done an about face on this. I actually feel that the Sox need this trade and I think they feel that they do now. If they were in it just to run up the price they would've already been out of it.

 

There doesn't often come a time where you can get the best pitcher in baseball and relegate your rival to your rear view mirror conceivably for the next 3-5 years.

 

The Yankees will always have a potent offense and next year you can just about pencil them in to sign Teixeira and now at this point with Ellsbury or Crisp in the Boston lineup - their offense is better.

 

We turned the tide on pitching but if they land Santana and keep Joba here is what you're looking at next year:

 

NY - Santana, Wang, Joba, Kennedy, Mussina

Bos - Beckett, Dice-K, Schilling, Wakefield, Lester

 

I would give the edge to the Yankees with Santana vs Beckett (I actually believe that the real Josh Beckett falls somewhere between the 06 and 07 versions) the rest of the rotation is almost a virtual tie although if I had to lean to one side I'd probably lean toward the Yankees on all of the other 5 matchups save for possibly Mussina vs Lester.

 

How about 2009?

 

NY- Santana, Sabathia, Wang, Joba, Kennedy

BOS - Beckett, Dice-K, Buchholz, Lester, Masterson

 

Even more pronounced - Yanks win Santana, Sabathia and Joba almost hands down at least on paper.

 

Reverse it with the Sox and Santana

 

BOS - Santana, Beckett, Dice-K, Schilling, Wakefield

NYY - Haren, Wang, Joba, Kennedy, Mussina

 

Boston on paper wins Santana, Beckett, and Schilling and I'd favor them slightly with Wake over Moose. Joba and Dice-k is a draw that slightly favors the Yanks.

 

2009

 

BOS - Santana, Beckett, Dice-K, Buchholz, Bowden

NYY - Haren, Sabathia, Wang, Joba, Kennedy

 

I give the Sox Santana and Beckett again and the rest of the rotation would be draws.

 

I assumed that the Sox gave up Masterson, Lester and Ellsbury to me its a no brainer because money isn't an issue to the Yanks so the let them give the guy 150 million thing doesn't work because they give Giambi 20 million a year. They'll still sign every free agent that wants to go there.

 

That plus I think the Yanks are going to make a deal this offseason - why not force them to deal their prospects for the 8th or 9th best pitcher in baseball as opposed to the best pitcher?

 

And lastly Theo tends to work level-headed but if the Yanks get Santana and the Sox don't make the playoff's or if the Yanks win the WS. This front office will be apt to make a bone headed move like trading three guys for Doug Mirabelli.

 

I don't know. If the hang up is Ellsbury than give him up. Pitching wins championships.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I don't know. If the hang up is Ellsbury than give him up. Pitching wins championships.

 

I think Theo knows this but going into the GM meetings he probably doesn't want to show his hand until they sit down with everyone. I have a real strong feeling the Red Sox will try to get another team involved. One thing we should consider is the Red Sox and Yankees are looking to add pieces to the Twins which they don't necessarily need. Right now the Twins outfield includes:

 

Delmon Young, Michael Cuddyer, Craig Monroe, and Jason Kubel. They may insist on Jacoby Ellsbury but I still don't think its an immediate need. They are loaded on pitching with Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Perkins, Neshek, Nathan....this makes sense when the Yanks dangle Phil Hughes yet you don't see the Twins bite right away.

 

The Red Sox do a great job of getting other teams included and I would look for the Sox to find a suitor for Coco Crisp and spin off that player in the deal to get Santana. The Twins could really use another infielder and the best the Yanks or Sox can offer is Jed Lowrie or Alberto Gonzalez. Blah.....

 

The Padres and the Rangers are two teams who have shown interest in Crisp and I'm sure there are others. Perhaps, for example, adding Chase Headley or Hank Blalock in place of Crisp would interest the Twins. I bet those were the ideas Theo presented last night and they will wait to see what happens.

[cam780]

I think Theo knows this but going into the GM meetings he probably doesn't want to show his hand until they sit down with everyone. I have a real strong feeling the Red Sox will try to get another team involved. One thing we should consider is the Red Sox and Yankees are looking to add pieces to the Twins which they don't necessarily need. Right now the Twins outfield includes:

 

Delmon Young, Michael Cuddyer, Craig Monroe, and Jason Kubel. They may insist on Jacoby Ellsbury but I still don't think its an immediate need. They are loaded on pitching with Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Perkins, Neshek, Nathan....this makes sense when the Yanks dangle Phil Hughes yet you don't see the Twins bite right away.

 

The Red Sox do a great job of getting other teams included and I would look for the Sox to find a suitor for Coco Crisp and spin off that player in the deal to get Santana. The Twins could really use another infielder and the best the Yanks or Sox can offer is Jed Lowrie or Alberto Gonzalez. Blah.....

 

The Padres and the Rangers are two teams who have shown interest in Crisp and I'm sure there are others. Perhaps, for example, adding Chase Headley or Hank Blalock in place of Crisp would interest the Twins. I bet those were the ideas Theo presented last night and they will wait to see what happens.

 

I would like to agree but I don't know if Theo will get that chip with Crisp. It may be somebody else - Padres have already said they aren't giving up Headley for Crisp and Blalock is a Boras client in the last year of his deal.

 

I don't know.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I would like to agree but I don't know if Theo will get that chip with Crisp. It may be somebody else - Padres have already said they aren't giving up Headley for Crisp and Blalock is a Boras client in the last year of his deal.

 

I don't know.

 

Deffinitly those may not be possibilities but I was using them as examples. There are many players out there and lots of teams interested in Crisp. I'm sure there could be a match out there that better suits the Twins.

[Cocos Disciples]

Anyone else getting migraines from these ever changing Johan trade rumor updates in the past 48 hours?

 

But of course.

[Cocos Disciples]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088

Sox will include Ellsbury or Lester, not both.

 

I'm surprised at the way these trade talks are progressing. Normally the teams don't publicly declare who is on and off limits and who will be the main chips. Or at least from what I remember...

[Rdsxmbnt]

Sox willing to deal Ellsbury or Lester but not both:

 

With the Minnesota Twins insisting on center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury in any trade for pitcher Johan Santana, the Red Sox have altered their offer and have told the Twins they are willing to include the outfielder.

 

But sources say the Red Sox have also told the Twins they will not trade left-handed pitcher Jon Lester and Ellsbury together in the package they are offering.

The Twins have continued to ask for Ellsbury, so the Red Sox have flipped Ellsbury back into their offer, sources say, while removing Lester, and upgraded slightly the rest of their proposed package slightly -- perhaps to include right-handed pitcher Justin Masterson. Presumably, any offer with Ellsbury would not include Crisp.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088

 

EDIT: Beaten by CD's but there are the main important parts of the update

[ksushi]

I think there has to be something missing. Perhaps a 3rd team or something because it doesn't make sense to trade for Santana and not give up some piece of our rotation without Santana... right?

 

Maybe?

 

Probably just a tactic to keep the twins interested in answering our phone calls for now and either drive the yankees price up, or force the yankees out of the negotiations and killing the twins leverage... Either way... I'm starting to get bored of this. Call me when Santana changes uni's.