2007 Spring Training Game Thread

[seabeachfred]

Papelbon was frigging nasty today' date=' fastball look just as good as last year. He also looks bigger and stronger.[/quote']

 

Right MANNYHOF---and that is why we must keep him in the rotation and see him develop into one of the best starting pitchers in the AL. However, if some of those crapola relievers can't claim that closer's role he might be sent back down to the bullpen, a move that I think would hurt our rotation quite a bit because we then would need a No. 5 starter and Lester might not be ready by then. Besides, Papelbon should not be sent back down there under any circumstances----in my opinion at least.

[seabeachfred]

I think Ellsbury will continue getting stronger and will eventually put up 15 HR in a season. I think Damon comparisons are good... one of the easiest comparisons available between ANY minor leaguer and major leaguer in my opinion.

 

Ellsbury is such an amazing athelete that I think he will have a career path very much like that of Damon. He has the ability to make contact already, and he clearly has some very good pop on his bat too.

 

Ellsbury is a line drive hitting, speed demon, crack flychaser stud with developing power to boot. This young man must be given that CF position when he is ready and under no circumstances must the Red Sox trade this kid. Cirsp, Pena or Murphy or Moss go before Jacoby does.

[seabeachfred]

I'm very worried about our bullpen. They got lit up today and I don't expect to see many of them step-up and do anything great. I think Donnelly and Okajima will be good this season, Im very worried about the rest.

 

Anybody else look at Delcarmen's performance today and imagined how much better Helton would be in our lineup than Delcarmen in our bullpen?

 

Delcarmen has been up and down for two years and he seems to be regressing. Why Theo is holding on to this guy like he's one of the crown jewels the same way he seems to be protecting JoEl is a complete mystery to me. You are right about Okajima and Donnelly. I think those two guys will be very solid for us this year and one of them might actually become the closer. And even though I'm in the minority here I still think Timlin has some more petrol left in his tank. I wonder when Hansen is going to be ready to step in there and make an effort to win a spot in our pen, but you are absolutely right about Helton in our lineup compared to MDC in our bullpen. I liken him to the Pena of the pitching staff. We keep those two guys around for another year and we will not even be able to give them away.

[seabeachfred]

Well Papelbon looked awesome in today's game. If he continues to pitch like that he is going to be one very very solid starter although I have alot of faith that he is going to be one of our top starters this year. The way that K-Dice and Lil Papi have pitched in their first games I am really optimistic of our chances to take it this year.

 

Ray, despite my previous rants I'm like you, very optimistic about our chances----with, however, one caveat thrown in. We must get a decent closer and one doesn't step up then trade for one. We have enough surplus pitching and outfield talent to package a deal for Cordero or Duscherer. We get a closer and we can win the AL East this year.

[example1]

ORS' date=' at first glance you could think that I'm out on ledge as you put it, but look at our closer candidates---JoEl, Delcarmen, Hansen, Okajima, Taverez, Donnelly, Timlin, How many damn chances are they going to get to close games in ST even if we are winning a majority of games in the ninth inning? [/quote']

 

I would say "a spring training's worth".

 

Well to me we had better get in some position to see which one of these less that stalwart "closers" can actually save a game and you can't do that when you behind in the ninth inning. I remember telling someone that this ST was different from the others because of this situation---we have to give some of these guys a chance to close a game in the ninth inning and that means we have to be winning some of those games in the ninth inning.

 

Given how much MLB action these guys have, the Sox know how these guys tend to handle pressure already. Otherwise, what they need to see is whether or not they can pitch innings without getting into trouble and giving up runs. There will undoubtedly be times where Farrell or Francona say "Pitch like its the ninth"--to clarify that "this isn't a time to work on your cutter."

 

If everyone totally sucks then I really envision Papelbon being the closer with Lester moving to the rotation if he's still healthy.

 

My personal preference would be to try some of the younger guys or at least a stop-gap like Edgar Martinez.

 

Of course, all of us with brains enough to see could quickly eliminate MDC, JoEl, and Taverez from that list right away except JoEl is Theo's personal house pet who seems determined to ram that bum down our throats. What I'm afraid of is that none of these get enough chances to show what they can do holding a lead in the ninth inning and we either have a replay of that disgusting closer-by-committee that Theo so stupidly signed on for four years ago, or we put Papelbon back in that role----something I personally do NOT want to see happen because I think he can be a dynamite starter for us.:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

 

I don't have any problem with a closer by committee if your team is good through and through. This bullpen doesn't have that one or two arms that are essentially shut down in late innings. I think leverege situations exist and that your best reliever should be in in the highest leverege situations. I vote for Papelbon if it is absolutely necessary, and after Hansen, Martinez, and Cox have been thought about VERY seriously.

[seabeachfred]

Papelbon was awesome in his first appearance. He didn't dial it up on every pitch although he was generally throwing pretty hard. There were a few pitches where he dialed it up and you could hear the loud pop of the glove all over the ballpark. He faced the middle of the order including Utley and Howard and struck out 4 of 6 outs. He simply overmatched them.

 

Murphy is making an early bid to be the 5th OF. He looks good in the field and he's been productive at bat.

 

The back of the pen is having problems. Piniero doesn't have a clue what he is doing. MDC is picking up where he left off last year, and Hansen is nowhere to be found. With thisback disc problem cropping up, the FO may end up looking foolish in refusing to move him for Helton or in a package for Chad Cordero.

 

You know 700, out here the Angels refused to give up any of their "prospects" last summer and failed to make the playoffs. I hope Theo's myopic design to hold onto MDC and Hansen doesn't cost us this year because MDC simply is one of those guys with good stuff who cannot put batters away, and Hansen looks like he might just be a waste of a good draft choice. I'm hoping I'm not wrong on the latter; I am convinced about the former.

[example1]

Ray' date=' despite my previous rants I'm like you, very optimistic about our chances----with, however, one caveat thrown in. We must get a decent closer and one doesn't step up then trade for one. We have enough surplus pitching and outfield talent to package a deal for Cordero or Duscherer. We get a closer and we can win the AL East this year.[/quote']

 

Do you really think Duscherer is going to be a good closer? You were talking before about guys needing to prove themseleves in the 9th inning, but to my knowledge Duscherer doesn't get that opportunity very often. :dunno:

[RedSoxRooter]

I'm not worried about the closer situation and here's why. Plan A is to find one out of the 6 or 7 relievers we have. Plan B is we acquire one at the trade deadline if need be. Plan C is Papelbon goes back if Plan A or B fail after the trade deadline. Up to the trade deadline we'll have, what, 25 save opportunities? Even if the s*** hits the fan, the worst case scenario has us only saving 12-15 of those games. And we will be set for the second half no matter what (unless Pap gets hurt). I'm 100 percent convinced that Papelbon could save games late in the season with the doctor's permission. And Lester could fill the spot in the rotation, cancer be damned.

 

I will say that, as much as I'm not concerned about the closer situation, I am concerned about Pineiro being a part of the staff.

[a700hitter]

You know 700' date=' out here the Angels refused to give up any of their "prospects" last summer and failed to make the playoffs. I hope Theo's myopic design to hold onto MDC and Hansen doesn't cost us this year because MDC simply is one of those guys with good stuff who cannot put batters away, and Hansen looks like he might just be a waste of a good draft choice. I'm hoping I'm not wrong on the latter; I am convinced about the former.[/quote']They'll both be forgotten in 3 or less years. Their highest and best value would be as part of a package to net a star like Cordero. There are few Papelbons around, and although Papelbon was a star reliever, he may not perform as well as a starter. He might be one of those guys that becomes hittable after the first or second time through the order. Only time will tell. If he doesn't fare well as a starter, he'll go back to being a shut down closer. These other young arms like Bucholz and Bowden are completely unknown quantities, and MDC and Hansen can fall very quickly from prospect status.

[riverside sluggers]

Again 700 to net a package like Cordero...

 

Last time I checked Delcarmen wasnt part of Bowden's asking price. We're talking about a hefty price of Bucholz (or Bowden), Ellsbury, Hansen

[a700hitter]

Schilling seemed to be working on his pickoff move today. He made several attempts that were close and he picked off one guy at first. No one was taking a big lead, but Schill was getting the ball over there very quickly. He looked good again, this time working into the 4th inning, because his pitch count was so low. Several people commented that he looked as if he'd already dropped some weight. It could have been the slenderizing effect of the dark blue jerseys (with the red armpits--what's up with that?)? Theo sign Curt no for the one year $13 million if that's all he's asking. Go as high as $15 million if you have to before camp breaks.

 

BTW: Although Ellsbury is very quick, I have concluded with my naked eye that he is not as fast as Crisp. Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong. The kid does take a full healthy cut at the pitch.

 

Although he didn't travel with the team today, Pedroia is not Loretta with the glove or the bat. Just my opinion. Neither his hands or his footwork are impressive, and he is slow for a young middle infielder, well below average. He has no major tool and a big swing with warning track power. I am not looking forward to him being in the lineup every day.

[MANNYHOF24]

Does anybody think there is any chance that Alex Cora will be the opening day second basemen?

[a700hitter]

Does anybody think there is any chance that Alex Cora will be the opening day second basemen?

I hope not.

[MANNYHOF24]

I hope not.

 

So you do think Pedroia is really the only option then?

[Cocos Disciples]

Yes.

[a700hitter]

So you do think Pedroia is really the only option then?

That doesn't make it the right option. They boxed themselves in and left themselves with no safety net. At best, he'll be an average second baseman in the league. At worst, he' ll flame out and the nation will be calling for his head in May. Not a good gamble with average b eing his upside potential. If average was his downside and his upside was Chase Utley, I could see leaving yourself with no other option. This was a gamble and not one I would have taken when so much has been invested in this roster.

[MANNYHOF24]

We should have kept Loretta for one more year. He was valueable last year.

[a700hitter]

I thought so, but JSinger wanted his head when the team was collapsing.

[a700hitter]

A comment on the kids in camp. I like the way Spann approaches his AB's, but I hate the way he fields at 3rd. To me it's easier to develop into an adequate fielder than learn how to hit. Also, where has Edgar Martinez been? Is he in camp?

[riverside sluggers]

Does anybody think there is any chance that Alex Cora will be the opening day second basemen?

 

Nope, none whatsoever. Spring training is sometimes hard to gauge how guys will be. Kieth Foulke was bad in spring training of 04, he turned out fine in the season I heard. Last year Mike Lowell was struggling to bring the bat to the plate and we were all speculating JT Snow at 1st, and Youkilis at 3rd

[a700hitter]

Nope' date=' none whatsoever. Spring training is sometimes hard to gauge how guys will be. Kieth Foulke was bad in spring training of 04, he turned out fine in the season I heard. Last year Mike Lowell was struggling to bring the bat to the plate and we were all speculating JT Snow at 1st, and Youkilis at 3rd[/quote']I thought lowell looked fine on the hard stuff last year. By the second week of spring training he was getting around on fastballs. He was clearly having trouble with recognizing offspeed and breaking pitches. He was very off-balance. That was a different story than Pedroia. The question around Lowell concerned whether age had robbed him of his ability, not whether he ever had ability. Lowell was a proven productive hitter and great fielder who had had a bad year in '05 with the bat, and the Red Sox had a contingency plan in case he was washed up. Pedroia's ability is very questionable, and the Red Sox have no contingency plan..

[RedSoxRooter]

I don't understand the people who love Loretta and hate Pedroia. They are the same player only Pedroia's 10 years younger and 300k/year. Pedroia will be fine - .280/.300 hitter/.350 OBP and with more power.

 

You can't judge Pedroia on the end of last year with a bum shoulder. Just like you can't say Timlin's washed up because he had a bad half to last year. You guys are too reactionary.

 

You can really tell the newbies to Sox fandom and baseball in general with silly statements like that.

[a700hitter]

I don't understand the people who love Loretta and hate Pedroia. They are the same player only Pedroia's 10 years younger and 300k/year. Pedroia will be fine - .280/.300 hitter/.350 OBP and with more power.

I don't hate Pedroia. I hope he has the career that loretta has had, but my eyes are telling me a different story at this point. I don't like what I am seeing in the field or at bat.

You can't judge Pedroia on the end of last year with a bum shoulder. Just like you can't say Timlin's washed up because he had a bad half to last year. You guys are too reactionary.

I'm judging him on what I am seeing now' date=' not last year. I just don't see much in the way of major league level skill from the kid. I'll be happy if he is an average second baseman.

You can really tell the newbies to Sox fandom and baseball in general will silly statements like that.

If 40 years of following every game makes me a newbie, then I plead guilty.

[MANNYHOF24]

Well, i'm not a newbie to red sox fandom, and I think Pedroia will be an O.k. player, I was simply pointing out that Lorreta was good for us last year and and wondering if it was a good idea to not give him a one year deal. IMO, I don't think Pedroia is the long term answer at second base. Does that statement make me a newbie red sox and baseball fan. Allthough I will say I'm a fairly new sox fan sense I started following the sox in 1995, when I became old enough to start to understand the game of baseball.

[a700hitter]

Well' date=' i'm not a newbie to red sox fandom, and I think Pedroia will be an O.k. player, I was simply pointing out that Lorreta was good for us last year and and wondering if it was a good idea to not give him a one year deal. IMO, I don't think Pedroia is the long term answer at second base. Does that statement make me a newbie red sox and baseball fan. Allthough I will say I'm a fairly new sox fan sense I started following the sox in 1995, when I became old enough to start to understand the game of baseball.[/quote']11 years is not a newbie. You are on your way to grizzled veteran status.

[MANNYHOF24]

11 years is not a newbie. You are on your way to grizzled veteran status.

 

Haha, thats what my friends and family fear.

[example1]

These other young arms like Bucholz and Bowden are completely unknown quantities' date=' and MDC and Hansen can fall very quickly from prospect status.[/quote']

 

They're not unknown quantities, they've both done everything they can to prove themselves at every level. They just aren't known to US. For those who go to Single-A games or scout HS games they're not unknown. Clay Buchholz's brother pitches for the Astros system (I believe) and BA said clay's a future Ace. Bowden put up similar numbers but was 2 years younger.

 

The "unknown quantities" argument is easy to make but its not legitimate in this case. A HS player who has only been scouted a few times might be unknown, but not guys drafted two seasons ago.

 

Also, Ellsbury, to me, looks MUCH faster than Crisp. That triple he hit the other day was pretty impressive (again, 10 seconds from when he started running forward to when he slid into 3rd) and he doesn't seem to be overwhelmed by any pitcher he's faced so far. I'm not trading Bowden, Buchholz or Ellsbury. I would think about trading a Masterson or a Bard or something for a great closer, but other teams refusing to discuss those guys is simply those teams not understanding what they would be getting and hoping the Sox underestimate their top pitching talent (they won't).

[EvilDonut]

Anyone slightly frightened of Lugo's aim? I'm sure he'll make up for it on offense, but still.

 

We were spoiled last year.

[seabeachfred]

Again 700 to net a package like Cordero...

 

Last time I checked Delcarmen wasnt part of Bowden's asking price. We're talking about a hefty price of Bucholz (or Bowden), Ellsbury, Hansen

 

Needless to say riverside, if Bucholz or Ellsbury are mentioned in any such trade talks it becomes a non-starter, but we have packages we could put up for a trade for Cordero. The Nationals aren't going anyplace this year or next or next and they could use some good young talent besides the ones we won't trade them. A closer to them means little because they are going to lose between 90-100 games so how many will Cordero save for them? Bowden's reluctance to pull the trigger in Cincy cost him his job there and at the rate he's going with his bad trades and inability to sign his free agents, he will soon be out of a job there unless he rebuilds his team and gets some talent for his weak farm system.

[seabeachfred]

Well' date=' i'm not a newbie to red sox fandom, and I think Pedroia will be an O.k. player, I was simply pointing out that Lorreta was good for us last year and and wondering if it was a good idea to not give him a one year deal. IMO, I don't think Pedroia is the long term answer at second base. Does that statement make me a newbie red sox and baseball fan. Allthough I will say I'm a fairly new sox fan sense I started following the sox in 1995, when I became old enough to start to understand the game of baseball.[/quote']

 

MANNYHOF, at least give yourself a pat on the back for being a very young man when you found the Red Sox. Hell, I'm still kicking myself in the ass for waiting most of my life to find the team I should have been rooting for decades earlier but didn't until I was nearly 60Talk about not getting it until real late in life, I'm the poster boy for that. And guys, it doesn't matter if you're an old hand or newbie, a Red Sox fan is a Red Sox fan PERIOD!!!!! Three that I converted to the team in 2003 are now nuttier than I am and I'm a pretty sad case in that regard myself.