End Of Helton Discussions

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Rockies have ended the discussions regarding trading Todd Helton to the Red Sox.

 

Just saw it on the bottomline on ESPN and Rockies website proves it.

 

Could this be just a ploy to not look desperate to dump his salary and drive up the Sox offer? Let's hope.

[example1]

Rockies have ended the discussions regarding trading Todd Helton to the Red Sox.

 

Just saw it on the bottomline on ESPN and Rockies website proves it.

 

Could this be just a ploy to not look desperate to dump his salary and drive up the Sox offer? Let's hope.

 

I certainly think it could be, but if they're demanding Hansen or above in talent and if they're making the sox pay a ton of money then its just not worth it. If they want someone to pay half his salary and to get a package of MLB players back then the Sox are their team.

 

Now Helton will, A-Rod style, go to the Yankees and become hated by Sox fans.

[TGov]

I didnt want Lowell to go, he's a great player for the Sox. Also, trading away some of our young pitching prospects for a seasoned veteran on the decline didn't sound that smart either... and trade away Julian? ah come on man, you gotta love Julian Tavarez, haha...

[HeadOfSoxNation]

I certainly think it could be' date=' but if they're demanding Hansen or above in talent and if they're making the sox pay a ton of money then its just not worth it. [/quote']

 

If they're asking for Lowell, Tavarez, and Hansen and are willing to pay almost half of Helton's salary...I do that in a second. MDC and Hansen is a little high...but one or the other I say is a bargain to get another HUGE left handed stick at Fenway. Righties would vomit for days before facing that Sox lineup.

 

Ellsbury is off the table I'd say...we can move a young pitcher because we have our fair share...power we lack.

 

I bet the Sox offered either MDC or Hansen...the Rox wanted both...the Sox vetoed...and now the Rox are calling it off. I wouldn't be too incredibly surprised if it ends up happening for one of the two and another low level prospect.

[TGov]

If they're asking for Lowell, Tavarez, and Hansen and are willing to pay almost half of Helton's salary...I do that in a second. MDC and Hansen is a little high...but one or the other I say is a bargain to get another HUGE left handed stick at Fenway. Righties would vomit for days before facing that Sox lineup.

 

Ellsbury is off the table I'd say...we can move a young pitcher because we have our fair share...power we lack.

 

I bet the Sox offered either MDC or Hansen...the Rox wanted both...the Sox vetoed...and now the Rox are calling it off. I wouldn't be too incredibly surprised if it ends up happening for one of the two and another low level prospect.

 

No, but what you have to look at is... where are Helton and either Hansen or MDC gonna be in about 3 years... Helton will not be that great of hitter anymore since hes on the decline, Hansen or MDC on the other hand are young good pitchers which in about 3 years, should be a closer and setup man material...

[ANiMAL]

i dont see this being the end of these negotiations....

 

itll appear again possibly around trade deadline time

[riverside sluggers]

I didnt want Lowell to go' date=' he's a great player for the Sox. Also, trading away some of our young pitching prospects for a seasoned veteran on the decline didn't sound that smart either... and trade away Julian? ah come on man, you gotta love Julian Tavarez, haha...[/quote']

 

Lowell's a free agent at the end of the season. With cheaper options in Youkilis or the top 3rd baseman propsect Chad Spann able to take the job, its not that likely he'll remain with the team.

 

Hands down if it was Tavarez, Lowell, MDC for Helton... I do that trade 9 times out of 10

[HeadOfSoxNation]

No' date=' but what you have to look at is... where are Helton and either Hansen or MDC gonna be in about 3 years... Helton will not be that great of hitter anymore since hes on the decline, Hansen or MDC on the other hand are young good pitchers which in about 3 years, should be a closer and setup man material...[/quote']

 

Helton is only 33...he'll be a nasty hitter for another 3 years. I'll sacrifice the possibility of Hansen developing into a closer or MDC into a setup man for 3 years of a modern-day Murderer's Row.

[ANiMAL]

Helton is only 33...he'll be a nasty hitter for another 3 years. I'll sacrifice the possibility of Hansen developing into a closer or MDC into a setup man for 3 years of a modern-day Murderer's Row.

 

dont forget that heltons past 2 season were total declines compared to his previous seasons

[a700hitter]

MDC and Hansen

[HeadOfSoxNation]

dont forget that heltons past 2 season were total declines compared to his previous seasons

 

Yea I know...but I chalk those up to injuries and the intestinal illness last year. Even in decline years, he still RAKED.

[riverside sluggers]

MDC and Hansen

 

Even so, lets say the Sox make a trade of Lowell, Tavarez, Delcarmen, Hansen... shut your eyes at the end of the game because they would have a supposed bullpen such as Snyder, Romero, Hansack, Okajima, Donnelly, Timlin, and Pineiro

[a700hitter]

Even so' date=' lets say the Sox make a trade of Lowell, Tavarez, Delcarmen, Hansen... shut your eyes at the end of the game because they would have a supposed bullpen such as Snyder, Romero, Hansack, Okajima, Donnelly, Timlin, and Pineiro[/quote']If they trade MDC and Hansen, they'd have to hold back Tavarez.

[DUSTINMOHR4LIFE]

I don't see this coming up again. The Rox know what they want (young talent who can contribute soon) and the Sox aren't willing to give that up. Good job by Theo standing strong here.

[schillingouttheks]

I don't see this coming up again. The Rox know what they want (young talent who can contribute soon) and the Sox aren't willing to give that up. Good job by Theo standing strong here.

 

I don't either. I don't see a trade deadline move coming up either. Helton has made it clear that he'll waive his no trade clause for a move to Boston, but he wants it to be done quickly or he'll be vetoing any other trade. I wouldn't say that ending discussions, even if it's just a ploy, is getting it done quickly.

[example1]

MDC and Hansen

 

Agreed. The conspiracy theory side of me thinks the sox may have freaked out at the Rockies for the way they were publically doing this deal. Every other team has to know that any time a Red Sox rumor is released legitimately the Nation gets fired up and starts treating things like the deal is done. In the past I think this has forced the sox to either make a deal or look like the FO blew it. In this case everyone seems very balanced, which doesn't play into Colorado's favor. in other words, Sox nation pretty much unanimously agreed that, with enough money and the right prospects, of course Helton would be a nice player. At the same time, every fan (even a700) drew the line at certain prospects.

 

I imagine that, even if this deal were going forward, the Sox would demand that COL shuts up and allows negotiations to happen behind closed doors. It is, therefore, possible that COL completely shut down any discussion about the deal publically by saying that the deal is dead.

 

I'm pretty sure that's WAY out of LF, but I had been thinking about it and figured I would share.

[ksushi]

You win some, you lose some.

[BSN07]

The GM doesn't even get back into town until today. I def. think the Sox are mad cause of Lowell and Taveras names getting leaked. The Sox and Rox have never had great chemistry like say the do with SD. So I give this trade a 10% chance of happening and I think thats being fairly optomistic.

[riverside sluggers]

Eh I think the Rockies are still pissed for Theo & Co. pulling out of the Stern/Shoppach for Bigbie deal.

 

http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_5116201

EDIT: Ok now the Rockies are saying that the Sox were willing to give up a prospect to go along with Lowell, Tavarez, & cash consideration. It also goes on to say that the Sox were willing to eat $53 million of the reamining $90 million salary. I dont know, both of those statements I cant find myself believing

 

On Weei they discussed that the Sox could file tampering charges with Colorado for leaking the names of Lowell, Tavarez. Even the owner, Charlie Monfort, has talked about those 2 during times he's talked to the press the past couple of days. Anyone else love his quote "This is Todd Helton we're talking about"? Yea but Charlie this is the Todd Helton of today where his best asset will eventually become his OBP. Just sounds like Damage control to make the Sox front office look bad.

[BSN07]

The owner def. seems to be back tracking a little bit, everything out of his mouth now is " oh Todd is great, slurp slurp slurp, we have a chance to win the division and like to do it with todd, slurp slurp slurp". What an ass clown. He just trying to make himself look good.

[elsrbueno]

I applaud the Red Sox for sticking to their guns on this one.

 

Look-- Kevin Millar was "in the best shape of his life" coming into the 2005 season when he was the worst first baseman in baseball, offensively and defensively. I don't put much stock in players SAYING their "finally healthy" until they actually do something on the field that actually proves it. To me, Todd Helton is suspect at this point because he's played his entire career in the friendliest hitters' park in the game, and he's been declining each of the past 2 seasons. Hopefully it's a coincidence that his decline started 2 years ago and hopefully he gets healthy proves that it was just bad luck-- and returns to being one of the most prolific lefty hitters in the game. I still don't fault the Red Sox, because there's no PROOF that he'll do that.

 

Todd Helton at 6 years and 90 million is way too much. Todd Helton at 5 years 53 (I guess I'm assuming they'd buy out the final year of his contract? I read there's a $4.6 million buyout or a $23 million salary) is better, and even sane if you consider that's pretty much what Gary Mathews will get. I'd imagine the Red Sox were OK with paying that it came down to talent.

 

Hansen and Delcarmen are young power arms. Neither one of them has been a closer so they're tagged with the "middle relief" role-- which essentially gives them no value on the trade market. To me, they're more valuable in Boston than they are on the market.

 

Mike Lowell is a gold glove caliber third baseman and a decent bat. The Red Sox would have downgraded their defense with this trade and upgraded from Mike Lowell to Todd Helton.

 

Now, if we assume Todd Helton was severely hurt last year and take the average production from 2005 and 2006 as a general estimation of what he'll do in 2007 (I understand it's crude but it's close enough for now)

 

.310/.420/.500 with 42 doubles, 18 homers, and 80 RBIs. This is playing HALF his games at Coors also. If you take his ROAD rate stats for the last 3 years: 293/.409/.473

 

That's still decent, but not spectacular. Consider he'd be replacing Mike Lowell in the lineup, who's 32, plays a harder defensive position, and look at what he ALREADY DID in this market:

 

.284/.339/.475

 

Not as good as Todd I'll admit, but what is the upgrade from Lowell to Helton WORTH?

 

Tavarez and Hansen? Maybe. Tavarez, Hansen, + a premium prospect? I don't think so. Also consider the financial obligation. Lowell is owed $9 million and will almost certainly sign for that or less if the Sox desired to go that route. Helton would be at least $11 million a season for 5 seasons.

 

I'm not heartbroken that this deal didn't go down.

[BSN07]

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=179924[link]

 

Those ass's in COL only wanted to pay 27M of the 90M left on the contract, then had the balls to ask for a top prospect possibly 2. What the hell is the GM/owner smoking? When you try to rid your club of a contract like Helton's you don't get top tier prospects. No wonder this deal fell apart, I for one am Glad to see Theo put his foot down on this one. If Col was going to swallow half the contract, then I would see why they wanted MDC or Hansen, but when you only want to take on a quater of the contract you get nothing but money and maybe 2nd tier prospects/ and the veterans like Lowell and Taveras.

 

But like I said yesterday, if the deal fell threw I wouldn't cry about it because I still like the looks of our team in 07, Helton would have been a nice addition to the lineup but not an absolute must. I don't think we have heard the end of these discussions tho like COL owner is leading to.

[He Hate Me]

damnit I was hoping the Sox would do this unnecessary trade and lose a great arm in the process.

[BudLight]

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=179924[link]

 

Those ass's in COL only wanted to pay 27M of the 90M left on the contract, then had the balls to ask for a top prospect possibly 2. What the hell is the GM/owner smoking? When you try to rid your club of a contract like Helton's you don't get top tier prospects. No wonder this deal fell apart, I for one am Glad to see Theo put his foot down on this one. If Col was going to swallow half the contract, then I would see why they wanted MDC or Hansen, but when you only want to take on a quater of the contract you get nothing but money and maybe 2nd tier prospects/ and the veterans like Lowell and Taveras.

 

But like I said yesterday, if the deal fell threw I wouldn't cry about it because I still like the looks of our team in 07, Helton would have been a nice addition to the lineup but not an absolute must. I don't think we have heard the end of these discussions tho like COL owner is leading to.

 

Nation

 

How is the Colorado GM's thinking any different than Theo's when he was shopping Manny? He stated many times that Manny would have to bring top tier players/prospects and his annual contract is higher than Helton's.

[ORS]

Nation

 

How is the Colorado GM's thinking any different than Theo's when he was shopping Manny? He stated many times that Manny would have to bring top tier players/prospects and his annual contract is higher than Helton's.

I think the situations are a bit different. Manny only has two years left on his contract compared to Helton's 5 + buyout. And, Boston can handle Manny's contract without being handcuffed financially. Colorado can't with Helton. So, while it may appear similar, it's not really an apples to apples comparison. Colorado's situation should definitely play a role in how they proceed, and I think Boston is just trying to wait them out. It's the right way to play it at this point, IMO.

[BudLight]

I think the situations are a bit different. Manny only has two years left on his contract compared to Helton's 5 + buyout. And' date=' Boston can handle Manny's contract without being handcuffed financially. Colorado can't with Helton. So, while it may appear similar, it's not really an apples to apples comparison. Colorado's situation should definitely play a role in how they proceed, and I think Boston is just trying to wait them out. It's the right way to play it at this point, IMO.[/quote']

 

 

ORS

 

The Sox have been shopping Manny for several years and never pulled the trigger because of essentially the same reasons the Colorado GM wouldn't bite. I don't really see the big difference. Colorado would have gotten Lowell and Tavarez who both could have been one season and done in Colorado. They wanted long term players in return. I fully understand what Theo is doing and can't fault him for that, but at the same time I don't fault Colorado's GM for using the same strategy.

[TheKilo]

I applaud the Red Sox for sticking to their guns on this one.

 

Look-- Kevin Millar was "in the best shape of his life" coming into the 2005 season when he was the worst first baseman in baseball, offensively and defensively. I don't put much stock in players SAYING their "finally healthy" until they actually do something on the field that actually proves it. To me, Todd Helton is suspect at this point because he's played his entire career in the friendliest hitters' park in the game, and he's been declining each of the past 2 seasons. Hopefully it's a coincidence that his decline started 2 years ago and hopefully he gets healthy proves that it was just bad luck-- and returns to being one of the most prolific lefty hitters in the game. I still don't fault the Red Sox, because there's no PROOF that he'll do that.

 

Todd Helton at 6 years and 90 million is way too much. Todd Helton at 5 years 53 (I guess I'm assuming they'd buy out the final year of his contract? I read there's a $4.6 million buyout or a $23 million salary) is better, and even sane if you consider that's pretty much what Gary Mathews will get. I'd imagine the Red Sox were OK with paying that it came down to talent.

 

Hansen and Delcarmen are young power arms. Neither one of them has been a closer so they're tagged with the "middle relief" role-- which essentially gives them no value on the trade market. To me, they're more valuable in Boston than they are on the market.

 

Mike Lowell is a gold glove caliber third baseman and a decent bat. The Red Sox would have downgraded their defense with this trade and upgraded from Mike Lowell to Todd Helton.

 

Now, if we assume Todd Helton was severely hurt last year and take the average production from 2005 and 2006 as a general estimation of what he'll do in 2007 (I understand it's crude but it's close enough for now)

 

.310/.420/.500 with 42 doubles, 18 homers, and 80 RBIs. This is playing HALF his games at Coors also. If you take his ROAD rate stats for the last 3 years: 293/.409/.473

 

That's still decent, but not spectacular. Consider he'd be replacing Mike Lowell in the lineup, who's 32, plays a harder defensive position, and look at what he ALREADY DID in this market:

 

.284/.339/.475

 

Not as good as Todd I'll admit, but what is the upgrade from Lowell to Helton WORTH?

 

Tavarez and Hansen? Maybe. Tavarez, Hansen, + a premium prospect? I don't think so. Also consider the financial obligation. Lowell is owed $9 million and will almost certainly sign for that or less if the Sox desired to go that route. Helton would be at least $11 million a season for 5 seasons.

 

I'm not heartbroken that this deal didn't go down.

 

 

^^Winner.

 

Helton is not the same hitter he was a few years back. The amount of money that would have been tied up, and the length of the contract, of a hitter declining this much is not worth what it would take to get him.

 

The Red Sox would have been better if they made the deal. But is Todd Helton worth that much?

[Bosoxwest]

Nation

 

How is the Colorado GM's thinking any different than Theo's when he was shopping Manny? He stated many times that Manny would have to bring top tier players/prospects and his annual contract is higher than Helton's.

 

Helton's OPS, 2004-2006 (in CO)

1.089

.919

.880

 

Manny's OPS, 2004-2006

1.010

.982

1.058

 

That is how it's different.

[elsrbueno]

ORS

 

The Sox have been shopping Manny for several years and never pulled the trigger because of essentially the same reasons the Colorado GM wouldn't bite. I don't really see the big difference. Colorado would have gotten Lowell and Tavarez who both could have been one season and done in Colorado. They wanted long term players in return. I fully understand what Theo is doing and can't fault him for that, but at the same time I don't fault Colorado's GM for using the same strategy.

 

It's certainly the same IDEA, but the situations are quite different.

 

Helton has declined 2 years in a row and has 5 years and $90 million left on his deal.

Ramirez has shown no signs of slowing down despite a minor health issue last year and has 2 years and $40ish million left. If you assume Manny would have REQUIRED the team trading for him to pick up his 2 options at $20 million each that makes it a much closer comparison for the RECEIVING team, but the Red Sox are of no obligation to pick up those options while the Rockies are. From the Red Sox perspective he's a $40 million obligation.

 

From the Rockies perspective, Helton, a declining player is a $90 million obligation. Even in this market $50 million (the financial difference between Manny and Helton) is a sh*tload of money.

 

Manny is who he is, but at the end of the day he's one of the best hitters in the game. His slugging percentage is right where it should be and in fact, higher than last year. Helton has declined 2 years in a row.

 

Also, ORS' point is a good one: The Red Sox can afford to keep Manny Ramirez and still field a competitive team. The Rockies on the other hand keep their overall payroll lower, and Helton's contract is inhibiting them to a certain extent. Granted, they'd probably spend the money stupidly (see Hampton, Mike and Neagle, Denny) but shedding Helton's salary means a hell of a lot more to them than shedding Manny's salary would be for the Red Sox.

[BudLight]

Helton's OPS, 2004-2006 (in CO)

1.089

.919

.880

 

Manny's OPS, 2004-2006

1.010

.982

1.058

 

That is how it's different.

 

C'mon now, that's a lame argument. Manny also gets paid $5M more per season than Helton. Based on your logic I could counter with the field dimensions:

 

 

Fenway: RF - 302, LF - 315

 

Coors: RF - 318, LF - 315 (Adjusted for altitude figures, actual dimensions are deeper)

 

My point simply is, the Sox franchise player is Manny, the Rockies franchise player is Helton. Both GM's are unwilling to trade their franchise player for run of the mill (in Lowell's case declining skills) type players. The Rockies have a plethora of young talent getting ready to break into the Major Leagues. They would love to dump Helton's salary (despite what their GM says), but not at the cost of declining attendance and disgruntled fans. He has to give the fans and Helton's teammates something in return for Helton. Lowell and Tavarez do not measure up to that commitment. Theo on the other hand knows the impact of trading away your young talent and is unwilling to repeat that mistake.