Why do you guys like Theo?

[yeszir]

I can't hate the guy. He is at least partially responsible for 2004.

[nickw308810]

I think it is too early to completely bash all of Theo's 2006 moves. The Beckett trade was something he had to do. We needed a number 1 starter and that is what he got. Was he as good as expected? Of course not, but you can't write him off just yet. It hurts that Hanley won rookie of the year, but his biggest strength (his speed) would not have been utilized properly here anyway. Sanchez will be a good pitcher, but he won't be Josh Beckett. Mike Lowell has also had impressive defense and a decent bat, very underrated player IMO. Even with Hanley and Anibel's success, I still have to feel we are the winners of that trade.

We also needed to get Mirabelli back at the time. Everytime Wakefield went to the mound it was basically a guarenteed loss because none of our catchers could handle the knuckleball. Sucks for us that Meredith became so good so quickly, but we had to give up something to get Mirabelli back.

Willy Mo Pena for Bronson Arroyo? At the time we had extra pitching. Kind of messed up how Bronson signed the extension and then got dealt. Not the classiest of moves, but Willy Mo showed his potential and had a rather good year for us. The full value of this trade will be realized if he either starts or gets dealt. I doubt if Drew signs then Pena sticks around, which is unfortunate because he looks to be a 30 HR guy in the future, especially if he keeps being Ortiz's little sidekick.

Trading Renteria for Marte was a good deal. Probably the best that Theo made last offseason. Too bad Marte got flipped back in the Crisp deal, but again we haven't seen the best of Coco yet either. Losing Shoppach in that deal was dissapointing, but he can't hit anyway so it wasn't too big of a loss.

All in all not a great year for Theo last year, but definitely doesn't deserve to lose his job. He isn't God, but thankfully he isn't Dan Duquette either.

[ORS]

I'm just curious' date=' because from my experience, not many Yankee fans care one way or the other about Cashman, but most Red Sox fans love Theo. I don't remember saying or implying that we are better [just our team is better,LOL'].

 

Do you think he had a bad 2006? If so, does he deserves to keep his job if he has a 2007 like his 2006? Interested in thoughts, opinions. If you don't like the thread, there are a couple thousand others you could participate in.

When you ridicule people for "loving" an idiot (your off-base post in another thread - the one that was the reason for this thread), are we to assume that you hold us in some high regard?

 

He made one bad move in '06. Bard and Meredith for 'Belli. That was a panic move and took a young catcher from a system with nothing promising above A-ball. Meredith catching fire was just unfortunate. He came up last year, got bombed, and looked like he wouldn't ever get his confidence back as he struggled in the minors the rest of the year. Losing Bard was what troubled me with that one.

 

Given the situation before the Beckett trade, I make that move ten times out of ten. Ramirez just finished a disappointing year in AA, and was looking like a kid with little focus. Sanchez ended '05 getting roughed up a couple of times and then getting shelved with a sore arm. Don't get me wrong, these guys were good prospects with very good tools, but they had serious concerns about them going into that offseason. Besides, it's not like Beckett retired after one year. The jury can still be out on this one.

[SuperManny]

Theo was one of the masterminds behind 2004 so whats there not to love? Yeah there were a lot of players still from the Duquette era but for 86 years no other GM put together the right team to win it all. The Nomar trade, which I hated at the time, was as ballsy of a trade as any GM has made in recent memory. It worked out in the end which is why I give Theo a lot of room to work with these days. Since Theo has taken over the Sox have drafted much better and are going to be a lot better over the next decade than they were the previous decade.

[Bosoxwest]

First of all' date=' it's a discussion board. I will refrain from name-calling, [although I want to, lol']. The fact that it IS subjective can make it for a GOOD discussion. Can it be proven either way? No. The idea is to stir debate, make for interesting posts, and give differing viewpoints a chance to speak.

 

I am a Yankee fan, and I initiate most of my posts for debate. I find that most Sox fans, and you haven't proven this yet, are actually quite knowledgeable and debate topics well. The fact that I am of an opposing team's fan base is irrelevant.

 

I have posted numerous times here that I think Torre is an idiot, that Cashman isn't as good as people in New York think he is. Torre is a calming influence...maybe because he manages like he is comatose.

 

I guess you joined this board because everything about the Sox is GREAT! The players, the management, the food, the beverages, the uniforms, the hot dogs, just GREAT! What a boring board this would be if everyone had the same viewpoint.

 

You start by saying that you want "GOOD discussion", then immediately assert something about me that is the complete antithesis of the body of my posts. Nice work.

 

Maybe it would be better to try to have people discuss a single trade, or even a single year, as you've done above. That might allow the thread to have some manageable focus and not devolve into churlishness. Then folks could have better-defined dialogue about finite scenarios that would allow them to back up their statements with understandable facts, and/or media consensus points.

 

Maybe I'm the only person who is tired of the multitude of vague assertions around the "Theo Sucks" versus "Theo Is God" threads, and tired of the resulting infighting. I will leave.

[a700hitter]

I guess you would call the Beckett deal a good one. Umm...how about giving us Manny for Melky? Yes' date=' so far, it's been a disaster of a deal.[/quote']I like deal to get Beckett. IMO it's only a matter of time before he fillets and guts the Yankees like a fish like he did as a 22 year old in their house. The kid has a pair of balls, good nerves and a great arm. When he learns his trade a little more, he will be a top ace.

[rician blast]

I'm just curious, because from my experience, not many Yankee fans care one way or the other about Cashman, but most Red Sox fans love Theo. I don't remember saying or implying that we are better [just our team is better,LOL].

 

 

The above passage contains at least one claim that I think deflated your thread before it really got any credibility.

 

MOST Sox love Theo? I disagree.

 

Some fans think Theo is responsible for 2004...and love him for that...that's their entitlement, fine, I think they're misguided, but whatever.

 

Some Sox fans think Duquette and some luck had more to do with the title than Theo...fine.

 

Some Sox fans think Lucchino had as much, if not more, to do with the teams success than did Theo...great.

 

Some Sox fans think the FO discusses everything and no one man is totally responsible for teams good and/or bad personnel moves.

 

Some are FO apologists, ball-washers if you will and will always give Theo credit for the good but no blame for the bad.

 

Others will be overly critical of every move, the eternal pessimists, and never give Theo or anyone else in the FO enough credit.

 

Every fan base is a mix of individuals, beliefs and loyalties and to ignore that fact under the guise of this thread is either an attempt to bait the Sox fans or it is a display of a lack of understanding regarding the variability among any team's fan attitudes.

[Gom]

You start by saying that you want "GOOD discussion", then immediately assert something about me that is the complete antithesis of the body of my posts. Nice work.

 

Maybe it would be better to try to have people discuss a single trade, or even a single year, as you've done above. That might allow the thread to have some manageable focus and not devolve into churlishness. Then folks could have better-defined dialogue about finite scenarios that would allow them to back up their statements with understandable facts, and/or media consensus points.

 

Maybe I'm the only person who is tired of the multitude of vague assertions around the "Theo Sucks" versus "Theo Is God" threads, and tired of the resulting infighting. I will leave.

 

Bosoxwest...I said he had a miserable 2006...which is one year. Is that finite enough for you? Read your own quote bro, I said he had a miserable 2006, why do you guys love him?

The above passage contains at least one claim that I think deflated your thread before it really got any credibility.

 

MOST Sox love Theo? I disagree.

 

Every fan base is a mix of individuals, beliefs and loyalties and to ignore that fact under the guise of this thread is either an attempt to bait the Sox fans or it is a display of a lack of understanding regarding the variability among any team's fan attitudes.

Realize that I am based in New York, and don't meet many Sox fans. We tend to burn them here. Seriously, literally everyone I meet here is a Theo supporter. So I was curious, but I am starting to see that my sample size was way too small. So be it. Like I said, I thought the majority of fans love Theo.

 

ORS, of course the jury is out on nearly all the deals, but so far, none have really worked out. You would have been better off keeping Marte than dealing him for Crisp. Would you say your team would have been better last year with Rentaria or Crisp? How about for 2007.

 

So far, as of today, 11/27/06, none of the deals that he has made from the end of the 2005 season until now have really panned out.

 

So here is an off-shoot to the topic...since the end of 2005 until now, what has been a good deal Theo has orchestrated, and on a scale of 1-10, 10 being highest, in that time frame, what score would you give him, and why? Please, no flaming of anyone here. Let's play nice in this thread. I really am curious as to what you guys say.

[ORS]

So far, as of today, 11/27/06, none of the deals that he has made from the end of the 2005 season until now have really panned out.

 

So here is an off-shoot to the topic...since the end of 2005 until now, what has been a good deal Theo has orchestrated, and on a scale of 1-10, 10 being highest, in that time frame, what score would you give him, and why? Please, no flaming of anyone here. Let's play nice in this thread. I really am curious as to what you guys say.

Loretta for Mirabelli was a good trade. I'm not in the "bring back Loretter" camp, but he was a solid player. As already discussed, getting the 'Belli back should have been avoided.

 

Once the season was tanked, giving Wells for Kottaras was a good move because they, like previously mentioned, didn't have a catching prospect of note above A-ball.

 

Scaling those moves is irrelevant without some reference for the scale. If 1 is giving up Kazmir for Victor Zambrano and 10 is the opposite, then I rate both of those about a 6, or just better than break even.

[Gom]

Loretta for Mirabelli was a good trade. I'm not in the "bring back Loretter" camp, but he was a solid player. As already discussed, getting the 'Belli back should have been avoided.

 

Once the season was tanked, giving Wells for Kottaras was a good move because they, like previously mentioned, didn't have a catching prospect of note above A-ball.

 

Scaling those moves is irrelevant without some reference for the scale. If 1 is giving up Kazmir for Victor Zambrano and 10 is the opposite, then I rate both of those about a 6, or just better than break even.

 

I forgot about some of the minor deals, but since the end of 2005 until now, what would you give him as a total score, not just on two deals.

[ORS]

On one year's player performance results, he gets a 1. That is without question, but they will play more games and we'll get a clearer picture of how good that offseason was in the future.

[Mr Crunchy]

outside some of the prepubescents who post here i dont think theo is considered a God by anyone

 

i do think people are still giddy over the w/series in 04 which theo was a component of

he delivered a shortstop who could play and sent a whining nomar packing,in the same deal he got us a decent 1st basemen to close out the later innings....

 

he got us foulke and schill

he did what he was supposed to do in 2004 and if hes ever in the same resteraunt as me he will never ever have to pick up his own tab based on the above

 

however

since then its been 1 disaster after another

(i liked the becks deal,i think the arroyo deal was the worst we made in 15 years)

starting with renteria@clement and ending with the surrender 06 campaign that began last spring when we were still leading the division.

 

imo hes a figurehead who needs to get permission from ll to pull these strings

ll is acting irrational and it seems to me hes reacting to ny now just as ny used to react to us....

 

theo??

he can be replaced by a dozen other guys this morning without me or the 10M other sox fans losing any hair over it

[HeadOfSoxNation]

i think the arroyo deal was the worst we made in 15 years)

 

I don't understand why everyone decided to jump on the Arroyo bandwagon after he left Boston...the guy was a number 3 starter AT VERY BEST in the American League, and that's being generous. I think it's very easy to say it was a poor deal when you only have last year to go by when our pitching staff was so weak that some guys who made spot starts couldn't have won a little league game...but I think it's premature to say this is a poor deal. I still think Pena is a raw talent with raw power that we haven't seen in 10 or 15 years...yes, he needs to be refined, but you've gotta give the deal a chance to pan out before you can it.

 

I agree with you about Theo, though. I feel like since 04, a lot of the younger fans kind of give him a free-pass to do whatever he pleases and never question him. I don't feel he's entitled to this...I appreciate what he did in 04, but baseball is a "what have you done for me lately" business...and lately, he hasn't done much. The Beckett deal wasn't technically Theo as he was busy in his gorilla suit during this time...so basically, if you think past 04, Theo hasn't freaking done ANYTHING since the Nomar deal.

 

I know him and Francona are boys or whatever, but I couldn't belieeeeeeeeve there wasn't even stirrings about them giving Francona the axe...I know the Sox had an injury plagued year and there was nothing he could do about that, but there were AT LEAST 8 or 9 games that he gave away with bonehead moves in the late innings. That's way too many, in my opinion. I understand he was the skip when we won the series, but stillllllllllll, another free pass?

 

Not from this guy.

[Mr Crunchy]

arroyo is what he is

a 3,probably a 4-5 realistically who can throw 220 innings of 4.5 era

thats all

randy johnson gets 17M for this

beckett 10M for worse

 

please note the success we had in the 4th and 5th starters role last year

lenny dinardo,jj johnson,kason gabbard,dee snyder,all these f*** bags sucked to the point of the bullpen being used and abused and emptied of life before the 1st of august.

arroyo was an inning eater that saved our bullpen a lot of pitches

he wasnt replaced last year and it killed us

he still hasnt been replaced as of yet

 

arroyo was cheap,loved it here had a rubber arm and no ego

we traded him for a 4th outfielder

and now

we pony up 50M just to discuss a contract with a japanese kid who will cost us more than pedro martinez did when its all said and done for 1/2 the years..

 

i have no illusions of what arroyo brings to the table

i am however still waiting for his replacement

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Yea Wily is a 4th outfielder now...but during the time he was in the lineup, he was one of our more consistent hitters last year. He produced when the other spots in our lineup went flat at certain times...batted slightly over .300 and averaged an RBI every 2 games. That, to me, is VERY encouraging for a guy who could never get into a groove because he didn't get constant at-bats.

 

Very good points about the bullpen, however. You could always count on Arroyo to give you 6 or 7, even if they weren't a stellar 6 or 7. He did come up big in some big spots, too. I always liked him...I just wasn't one of the ones shedding tears when they made the deal. I, too, was guilty of thinking we had a plethora of starting pitching to start last year.

 

On a utopian baseball team...your replacement for Arroyo will come this year and Wily Mo will get constant at-bats where he'll hit 35 HRs and improve in the field. Let's see how it all pans out.

[Mr Crunchy]

wily is maddening

i have witnessed him going the other way on 2 strike counts to move a guy to 3rd

really i have

 

then ive seen him flail away at a 2-1 pitch with the bases juiced down a run on a pitch my 60 inch tv set couldnt get into the picture??

 

maddening

i love his power,we need his power and if they move manny hes got a job in left field full time...

however

after many years at the big league level the man hasnt lived up to his potential and i believe we need to break his current mold and rebuild him

plate discipline in the american league is essential

 

im not worried about his glove as much in left

 

that being said if they move manny i'll be furious

[SuperManny]

Theo's best move of last offseason was the Renteria for Marte trade. Worst move was the Marte for Crisp trade. Hated that trade. Cory Patterson could have been had much cheaper and he did much better. Crisp is a LF not a CF.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

wily is maddening

i have witnessed him going the other way on 2 strike counts to move a guy to 3rd

really i have

 

then ive seen him flail away at a 2-1 pitch with the bases juiced down a run on a pitch my 60 inch tv set couldnt get into the picture??

 

maddening

i love his power,we need his power and if they move manny hes got a job in left field full time...

however

after many years at the big league level the man hasnt lived up to his potential and i believe we need to break his current mold and rebuild him

plate discipline in the american league is essential

 

im not worried about his glove as much in left

 

that being said if they move manny i'll be furious

 

I don't disagree with you at all...my only arguement is that I don't think he's gotten a fair shake to live up to his potential in the big leagues. He's never had an everyday job...and judging by what he's done in only part time play, I think he deserves it.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Pena is never eeeeeeever going to be a guy who mixes finesse with power...let's just assume he's going to stay the quintessential raw power guy...would you say the Arroyo deal is a success if he puts up Adam Dunn like numbers?

[rician blast]

 

Good question, and though you didn't necessarily ask me....

 

At the outset I was strongly against the trade. I still hate it. And if Pena SOMEDAY becomes Adam Dunn, is that worth losing Arroyo LAST year. Arroyo is not Koufax, I understand that, but the loss of his quality innings wreaked havoc on the Sox BP and now to replace him with a similar pitcher it would cost what....$8 million? And how long will it take WMP to become "Dunn-esque"? I'm not sure I can ever call this a good trade.

[Papelbon58]

i think he can be better than Adam Dunn. He can be the right fielder. Papa Jack did wonders for him in very little time last season. Now we have someone else to work with him. All he needs is a full time job. Give him a chance.

[Ray10]

And I suppose Brian Cashman is so much better. He has gone out in the last few year and got how many superstar players and it has got him nowhere. The Yankees just end up chockin in the longrun. He got A-Rod who is apparentley the best SS in the game. But when it comes to playoff time he can't hit a ball if his life depends on it and people call him the best. Usually when you are the best you hit baseballs not miss them. I would rather have Theo as our GM than any other guy out there. Theo is the reason this team won the World Series and has been able to compete on a year to year basis. He knows how to make deals and he is a smart baseball guy. Now he could end up with the best pitcher in baseball and people still doubt him. I just don't get it. Then again you are a Yankee fans which explains everything. Jealousy anyone?.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Good question, and though you didn't necessarily ask me....

 

At the outset I was strongly against the trade. I still hate it. And if Pena SOMEDAY becomes Adam Dunn, is that worth losing Arroyo LAST year. Arroyo is not Koufax, I understand that, but the loss of his quality innings wreaked havoc on the Sox BP and now to replace him with a similar pitcher it would cost what....$8 million? And how long will it take WMP to become "Dunn-esque"? I'm not sure I can ever call this a good trade.

 

It was pretty much open ended...I appreciate the response.

 

To be honest with you...I don't think Pena is too far off from being a dominant power hitter. Maybe not quite Dunn-caliber, but close. And I think that pitchers are aware of that, and he'll draw loads of walks once he learns to get ahead in counts. I'd say if Pena is capable of 300 HRs and 100 RBIs, the Arroyo trade would be well worth it. Face it, if you have a guy who produces like that in a lineup with Ortiz, Helen Keller could win 13 games for them.

[ARod2212]

And I suppose Brian Cashman is so much better. He has gone out in the last few year and got how many superstar players and it has got him nowhere. The Yankees just end up chockin in the longrun. He got A-Rod who is apparentley the best SS in the game. But when it comes to playoff time he can't hit a ball if his life depends on it and people call him the best. Usually when you are the best you hit baseballs not miss them. I would rather have Theo as our GM than any other guy out there. Theo is the reason this team won the World Series and has been able to compete on a year to year basis. He knows how to make deals and he is a smart baseball guy. Now he could end up with the best pitcher in baseball and people still doubt him. I just don't get it. Then again you are a Yankee fans which explains everything. Jealousy anyone?.

LOL UR SO SAMRT! DUM YANKEEZ FANS!

 

Cashman has made a lot of good moves, especially since he's been given control of the team by Steinbrenner. I don't think Epstein has made as many good moves since the end of their championship season. So yes, I think Cashman has been a better GM the last two seasons.

[Gom]

And I suppose Brian Cashman is so much better. He has gone out in the last few year and got how many superstar players and it has got him nowhere. The Yankees just end up chockin in the longrun. He got A-Rod who is apparentley the best SS in the game. But when it comes to playoff time he can't hit a ball if his life depends on it and people call him the best. Usually when you are the best you hit baseballs not miss them. I would rather have Theo as our GM than any other guy out there. Theo is the reason this team won the World Series and has been able to compete on a year to year basis. He knows how to make deals and he is a smart baseball guy. Now he could end up with the best pitcher in baseball and people still doubt him. I just don't get it. Then again you are a Yankee fans which explains everything. Jealousy anyone?.

 

This is the kind of post that makes me want to start name calling. I am showing more restraint than I thought possible. Once again, this is a post about Theo, not Cashman. If you want to start one on Cashman, go ahead.

 

This reminds me of when you point out someone's flaws, their response is to point out yours. Talk about childish. What does Cashman's performance have to do with Theo's? Very little, if any. They do compete with each other, but so does every other GM in baseball. Stick with the post, kid.

 

Guys...the ones who have been following this thread...the quoted post is exactly all I hear from Sox fans in NY. I am glad you guys have painted a different picture for me. In that way, I have to thank this guy. He points out the blatantly obvious, with no comprehension of what has gone on since 2004. News flash to this guy: If Torre knew how to manage his team, the Yankees would have won the ALCS in 5 games and probably the World Series in 2004. Torre is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, reason your team won. This is not to take away from the Sox's accomplishment, which was phenomenal, but you guys would have won two World Series in a row if you didn't have the only manager in baseball more clueless than Torre in 2003, Grady Little, who blew it by keeping Pedro in the game. Back to the topic...

 

I think if this guy trades Manny away, I'm throwing a keg party at my house, and Red Sox nation is invited. I'd love to see Myers [even though Papi got him once last year] come in with the tying run on first in the eighth with Papi and Drew to follow. Sure like our chances more than Manny backing him up. GO THEO!

 

The fact that your front office is entertaining the idea of dumping Manny, now that his contract looks affordable, is insane. Top it off with what I am hearing that they won't get equal value, and how RSN is not in an uproar, I don't understand.

[rician blast]

It was pretty much open ended...I appreciate the response.

 

To be honest with you...I don't think Pena is too far off from being a dominant power hitter. Maybe not quite Dunn-caliber, but close. And I think that pitchers are aware of that, and he'll draw loads of walks once he learns to get ahead in counts. I'd say if Pena is capable of 300 HRs and 100 RBIs, the Arroyo trade would be well worth it. Face it, if you have a guy who produces like that in a lineup with Ortiz, Helen Keller could win 13 games for them.

 

I hear what you're saying but I wonder this...Did Dave Kingman get pitched around? Or Matt Williams? My fear would be that WMP remains a 'K' machine, in the mold of a Dave Kingman, and doesn't get pitched around nearly often enough to offer protection to whomever hits in front of him. And as a rather weak defensive player I think he needs to bring that sort of protection to the table to "earn his keep"

[Gom]

I think you guys are in love with this WMP too much. You are mesmerized by his power, and he has too many weaknesses as a hitter. I hope, for your team's sake, I'm wrong.

[rician blast]

I think you guys are in love with this WMP too much. You are mesmerized by his power' date=' and he has too many weaknesses as a hitter. I hope, for your team's sake, I'm wrong.[/quote']

 

your generalization indicates you have not noticed that there are a number of us who acknowledge his weaknesses.

[jacksonianmarch]

I like deal to get Beckett. IMO it's only a matter of time before he fillets and guts the Yankees like a fish like he did as a 22 year old in their house. The kid has a pair of balls' date=' good nerves and a great arm. When he learns his trade a little more, he will be a top ace.[/quote']

 

his good nerves looked shot when he walked 9 yankees in the fens. He looked like a lost child.

[Gom]

your generalization indicates you have not noticed that there are a number of us who acknowledge his weaknesses.

 

True, a lot of you have acknowledged his shortcomings. I just don't think he's going to get that much better.

[rician blast]

True' date=' a lot of you have acknowledged his shortcomings. I just don't think he's going to get that much better.[/quote']

 

Nor do I, but I hope I am wrong.