Why do you guys like Theo?

[castigs850]

 

If he is anything but a stud pitcher, he goofed here. Jury still out on this one, although I think you guys compete, if not make the playoffs with Abreu, simply cause I don't think you would have tanked the five game set, Ramirez would have played seriously, Papelbon would have played period...etc, etc.

 

 

I don't think baseball finances have changed that drastically in one year, and especially since July 31st.

 

 

First of all sorry i dont use puntuation too often im used to typing on AIM with friends and they dont really care, and secondly i dont ever capotalize because i use word prossesor and that does it for me so im probably not the most well groomed typist but i will try and do better out of respect for you guys.

 

Now to the important stuff. It is quite possible that i am just one of the young kids that give Theo too much credit and too many free passes all though i do realize he did create 04 by himself. However in reference to the Abreu thing i think he had insight to save money and get ready for the offseason, probably not the most popular thing cause thats kind of giving up on the season when you still have a good shot at it, but i think he saw a guy that he apparently loves in Drew and rathered him over abreu for one reason or another. Personally im not a fan of Drew, and i dont know anything about the bad decisions he made when he was first drafted, or how players hate him in the clubhouse, but i know he is always injured and growing up with the stereotype of dirtdogs and playing hurt and all that i dont like people that dont show much heart. Unless your name is Manny Ramirez and then you can do whatever you damn well please.

 

And i would say the market did change significantly over the past year with the luxury tax mark being raised teams are spending like crazy's. The Houston Astros just spent 100 mil for Carlos Lee a few weeks ago and i think proof of the market explosion would be to compare his contract to Damons of last year who got 52 mil over 4 years. I personally would take Damon over Carlos Lee any chance i got.

 

Not to mention the difference of the market between New York and Houston where obviously NY is notorious for over spending on players.

[jacksonianmarch]

Abreu is a better player in every single aspect than Drew. And with the prices that are being talked about, Abreu is a frickin bargain now.

[castigs850]

i didnt say that drew is better im saying i think theo holds drew in extremely hard regard for some reason. and Abreu is a bargain NOW but nearly everyone is compared to the players signing contracts this offseason

[jacksonianmarch]

i didnt say that drew is better im saying i think theo holds drew in extremely hard regard for some reason. and Abreu is a bargain NOW but nearly everyone is compared to the players signing contracts this offseason

 

If theo thinks drew is a better player than abreu for whatever reason, then he should be fired immediately and placed in his gorilla suit into a cage with a horny male gorilla. There is no way that a slower, lesser BA hitting, and more injury prone player of around the same age is anywhere near the same as abreu.

[a700hitter]

his good nerves looked shot when he walked 9 yankees in the fens. He looked like a lost child.

He looked like a happy child when he was carried off the field at Yankee Stadium on his team mate's shoulders.

[rician blast]

If theo thinks drew is a better player than abreu for whatever reason' date=' then he should be fired immediately and placed in his gorilla suit into a cage with a horny male gorilla. There is no way that a slower, lesser BA hitting, and more injury prone player of around the same age is anywhere near the same as abreu.[/quote']

 

?????

 

Where the fk is this post coming from? Who ever said that Theo thinks Drew is better? oh, and gorilla suit?

 

totally random, dude.

[jacksonianmarch]

He looked like a happy child when he was carried off the field at Yankee Stadium on his team mate's shoulders.

 

that was a long time ago. Recent memory my friend, recent memory.

 

And for rician, yeah, I am a little random at times. But the madness that is ensuing over drew and his potential to get abreu money for 5 yrs amounts to total hypocrisy in the sox FO. The sox did not go after Abreu with a marginal single A prospect because they "were not the yankees" then they plan to throw the same yearly money for 3 more yrs at a guy who is not even close to Abreu in durability or production. It reeks of hypocrisy.

[a700hitter]

that was a long time ago. Recent memory my friend' date=' recent memory.[/quote']It's more recent than your cherished memories.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's more recent than your cherished memories.

 

Just remember the last visage you have of Beckett. You know, the one where the yankees are rounding the bases in fenway on their way to a 5 game sweep. That is the Beckett I know. Until he takes the mound late in the yr and disproves it, that is how I view him. Abused, battered and damaged goods.

[a700hitter]

Just remember the last visage you have of Beckett. You know' date=' the one where the yankees are rounding the bases in fenway on their way to a 5 game sweep. That is the Beckett I know. Until he takes the mound late in the yr and disproves it, that is how I view him. Abused, battered and damaged goods.[/quote']A game in the first week of August? No, not my last memory of Beckett, nor was it the most indelible. Being carried of the field at Yankee stadium with a World Championship is a bit more special. I am glad that he will be on the Red Sox for a few more years to pitch more big games at Yankee stadium.

[jacksonianmarch]

selective memory.

[ORS]

that was a long time ago. Recent memory my friend, recent memory.

 

And for rician, yeah, I am a little random at times. But the madness that is ensuing over drew and his potential to get abreu money for 5 yrs amounts to total hypocrisy in the sox FO. The sox did not go after Abreu with a marginal single A prospect because they "were not the yankees" then they plan to throw the same yearly money for 3 more yrs at a guy who is not even close to Abreu in durability or production. It reeks of hypocrisy.

Or that they misread the market.

 

You guys can't have it both ways. They can't be total boobs for the bad trades they made last year, yet be bright enough for forsee the insanity that has hit the market this year. One or the other, but be consistent. This is why I get on your cases for baiting all the time. No matter what the situation, you always take the track that allows a greater degree of scorn, even if it contradicts what you scorned them for previously.

[jacksonianmarch]

Or that they misread the market.

 

You guys can't have it both ways. They can't be total boobs for the bad trades they made last year, yet be bright enough for forsee the insanity that has hit the market this year. One or the other, but be consistent. This is why I get on your cases for baiting all the time. No matter what the situation, you always take the track that allows a greater degree of scorn, even if it contradicts what you scorned them for previously.

 

be consistent? ORS, I think it is poor managing to say the least. They could not foresee what they had in their minor league system from 2003 on and it cost them the NL batting champ, the NL rookie of the year, the best NL rookie reliever a fireballing pitcher, and a solid young catcher to prove this. Then they did not have the foresight to see where the market was going and declined to make one trade that would have been very good for the team. It looks like they got railroaded in both aspects. I will give them credit though, they are doing something, but I think the Drew deal is a reactionary move that will likely haunt them for some time, when he refuses to play through minor pains (kinda like Manny) on a regular basis without putting up great production. There is nothing in Drew's past that screams solid consistent performer.

[jacksonianmarch]

and if the sox continue to "misread the market" do you think it might be time to get guys in there who can actually read the market. It seems as if they misread the market a lot.

[schillingouttheks]

I don't think Drew will be diagnosed with vaginitis very often this year. Coming to a place like Boston, you know the hostility that can be directed towards you. He better be careful, play well, and play often or us Sox fans WILL have his head, and make the Dodgers' fans proud.

[riverside sluggers]

Just remember the last visage you have of Beckett. You know, the one where the yankees are rounding the bases in fenway on their way to a 5 game sweep. That is the Beckett I know. Until he takes the mound late in the yr and disproves it, that is how I view him. Abused, battered and damaged goods..

 

Just for clarification, Beckett's last game vs the Yankees was a W in which he allowed 2 runs in 6 innings

 

So easily forgotten is that after the Yankees debacle at Fenway, Beckett dominated for 6 consecutive starts

[rician blast]

and if the sox continue to "misread the market" do you think it might be time to get guys in there who can actually read the market. It seems as if they misread the market a lot.

 

 

examples? not being a ballbuster, but give us some examples.

[BSN07]

Well they made the right call with Pedro, it's only been a year since Damon left so let's see what he looks like in the 3rd and 4th year( which where the years the sox where weary of), Lowe has done decent in LA( but it's the NL West). Beckett has been here for one season so let's wait before we say he's a bust. We basically traded Renteria for Crisp so that's a wash. WMP for Arroyo( let's see him in a full season before we hop on one side of the fence or the other). As far as Hanley,Sanchez and Sanchez, they all play in the NL East( a far lower division talent and difficulty wise then the AL East), so they most likely wouldn't beable to do that good( Renteria had a good year in ATL( NL East) but we don't hear anyone bitching about trading him). Right now some of the trades look bad after "1" season, let's wait a bit longer to see how it all pans out.

[Gom]

Well they made the right call with Pedro' date=' it's only been a year since Damon left so let's see what he looks like in the 3rd and 4th year( which where the years the sox where weary of), Lowe has done decent in LA( but it's the NL West). Beckett has been here for one season so let's wait before we say he's a bust. We basically traded Renteria for Crisp so that's a wash. WMP for Arroyo( let's see him in a full season before we hop on one side of the fence or the other). As far as Hanley,Sanchez and Sanchez, they all play in the NL East( a far lower division talent and difficulty wise then the AL East), so they most likely wouldn't beable to do that good( Renteria had a good year in ATL( NL East) but we don't hear anyone bitching about trading him). Right now some of the trades look bad after "1" season, let's wait a bit longer to see how it all pans out.[/quote']

 

The right call with Pedro..let me ask you guys something, if keeping Pedro gave you one more world series win and then he got hurt like he did now, would it have been worth it? I'm not saying it wasn't a good move letting him go, just curious to your position.

 

Damon in his 3rd and 4th year won't be as bad as Crisp in his first two. Conjecture, I know, but you already had one bad year with Crisp. I would be willing to bet anyone here that Damon's last two years in the Bronx won't be as bad as Crisp's first two years in Boston. Any takers?

 

Renteria for Crisp is a wash, only because they both sucked for you. Glad to see Renteria revert back to All-Star status in the NL. I don't buy the AL East is tougher crap anymore. The AL Central was far more difficult, and Contreras pitched well there. Abreu came over from the Phillies and did better than he did with the Phillies. I think there is a difference, it's slight, and the biggest difference is the player's temperament, not uniform or league. With interleague play, the difference between the leagues has been lessened and more uniform.

[TheKilo]

The right call with Pedro..let me ask you guys something' date=' if keeping Pedro gave you one more world series win and then he got hurt like he did now, would it have been worth it? I'm not saying it wasn't a good move letting him go, just curious to your position.[/quote']

 

We wouldn't have won the World Series with Pedro in 2005. The White Sox were far and away the better team and Pedro being on the hill was not going to change the outcome of that series.

 

Damon in his 3rd and 4th year won't be as bad as Crisp in his first two. Conjecture, I know, but you already had one bad year with Crisp. I would be willing to bet anyone here that Damon's last two years in the Bronx won't be as bad as Crisp's first two years in Boston. Any takers?

 

I still think not signing Damon to that kind of money was the right move. I think the difference between the market last year and the market this year is that if Damon was a free agent this year, he'd be getting Carlos Lee type money. I do think that Crisp will improve on his 2006 season once his hand is fully healthy. I also remember that Damon, when he first came to Boston, he didn't set people's hair on fire with his stats.

 

2002

Games - 154

Avg. - .286

HR - 14

RBI - 63

OBP - .356

SLG - .443

 

2003

Games - 145

Avg. - .273

HR - 12

RBI - 67

OBP - .345

SLG - .405

 

Compare that to Crisp's 2006:

Games - 105

Avg. - .264

HR - 8

RBI - 36

OBP - .317

SLG - .385

 

I do agree that Crisp will never be as big of an OBP guy as Damon, but I see no reason why he can't be a .285/15/75 type player when healthy, in fact I think he has the potential to be better than that.

 

Crisp is not as good as Damon right now, but I do think the two will be comparable in the coming years. Maybe not next year, but two or three down the road.

 

Renteria for Crisp is a wash, only because they both sucked for you. Glad to see Renteria revert back to All-Star status in the NL. I don't buy the AL East is tougher crap anymore. The AL Central was far more difficult, and Contreras pitched well there. Abreu came over from the Phillies and did better than he did with the Phillies. I think there is a difference, it's slight, and the biggest difference is the player's temperament, not uniform or league. With interleague play, the difference between the leagues has been lessened and more uniform.

 

 

Edgar Renteria 2004 - .287/10/72/.327/.401 (AVG/HR/RBI/OBP/SLG)

Edgar Renteria 2005 - .276/8/70/.335/.385

 

He OPS'd .728 in '04, and .720 in '05. The difference between the two years is he had a terrible defensive year, hurt his back, and never got back into playing shape. But he essentially had identical offensive years in '04 and '05.

[ANiMAL]

you cant usethe statistics of ppl that epstein let go to create a valid point, especially about pitchers who went to the NL. The NL is much easier to pitch in than the AL, we all know that. So we all know that Arroyo wouldnt have done the same with the Sox as he did with the Reds. Cla Meredith did better on a less pressured ball club, and also he was pitching in the NL. As far as Im concerned, Epstein is able to win a World Series, so i say I like him!!!

[a700hitter]

The right call with Pedro..let me ask you guys something' date=' if keeping Pedro gave you one more world series win and then he got hurt like he did now, would it have been worth it? I'm not saying it wasn't a good move letting him go, just curious to your position.[/quote']I have always felt that he would have helped them win back to back championships. They were without Pedro and Schilling for essentially the whole year and basically no bullpen and they still managed to win 95 games. Pedro could've given them the best record in the league and the #1 seed in the playoffs. Also, he had 1 1/2 very good years with the Mets. I'm not writing him off yet. If he pitches another solid year and a half, I'm not willing to pat them on the back for not re-signing him.

Damon in his 3rd and 4th year won't be as bad as Crisp in his first two. Conjecture' date=' I know, but you already had one bad year with Crisp. I would be willing to bet anyone here that Damon's last two years in the Bronx won't be as bad as Crisp's first two years in Boston. Any takers?[/quote']I have always said that this was a collosal bungle. The Yankee will get the remainder of his prime. As of last year he was still getting better

[Gom]

Thank you a700. Finally, someone who believes that not only does Theo not walk on water, but would probably sink like a stone.

 

I salute you.

[Gom]

Just for clarification, Beckett's last game vs the Yankees was a W in which he allowed 2 runs in 6 innings

 

So easily forgotten is that after the Yankees debacle at Fenway, Beckett dominated for 6 consecutive starts

 

Umm...exactly. The Sox were out of the race by then.

[example1]

I have always felt that he would have helped them win back to back championships. They were without Pedro and Schilling for essentially the whole year and basically no bullpen and they still managed to win 95 games. Pedro could've given them the best record in the league and the #1 seed in the playoffs. Also' date=' he had 1 1/2 very good years with the Mets. I'm not writing him off yet. If he pitches another solid year and a half, I'm not willing to pat them on the back for not re-signing him.I have always said that this was a collosal bungle. The Yankee will get the remainder of his prime. As of last year he was still getting better[/quote']

 

But what is the risidual effect of a WS win? I mean, does winning two instead of one somehow make losing the next year or two years down the road any easier? We know how not winning for 86 years feels, but at this point how much are we willing to sell the future for ONE more WS? Does having a decimated roster 2 years later with no hope of success become easier to swallow if you've won twice in recent years? How long does the effect last? How long do 2 WS victories last as a buffer for crappy baseball teams?

 

It seems to me that the Sox are much better off staying competitive every year, giving fans the ability to actually LOOK FORWARD to something. They've been competitive in 03, 04, 05 and for much of 06 (until guys like Snyder were pitching with a lineup headlined by Youkilis and Cora) and there's no reason to think that if they get Matsuzaka, Drew and a reasonable return/swap for Manny they won't be competitive again... especially if the Yankees don't find the pitching help they need.

 

I agree with you about 05, they could have won with Pedro and certainly would have been more competitive. But now, looking into the jaws of 2007 I'm not at all upset that the Sox of 05. Only one team won that year, it isn't like the sox LOST. EVERYBODY lost, the sox were one of them.

[a700hitter]

I agree with you about 05' date=' they could have won with Pedro and certainly would have been more competitive. But now, looking into the jaws of 2007 I'm not at all upset that the Sox of 05. Only one team won that year, it isn't like the sox LOST. EVERYBODY lost, the sox were one of them.[/quote']I'm not saying that they would be any better today, but after having won two World Series we would have been out of our minds. I just think that when you've got a team that has a real shot to go all the way, the FO should take the shot and do what it can to help the team, because WS victories are so elusive. The 2004 team had a small window, but the FO closed the window, not the players, and that is a shame.

[example1]

I'm not saying that they would be any better today' date=' but after having won two World Series we would have been out of our minds. I just think that when you've got a team that has a real shot to go all the way, the FO should take the shot and do what it can to help the team, because WS victories are so elusive. The 2004 team had a small window, but the FO closed the window, not the players, and that is a shame.[/quote']

 

 

I think of it more as: the window was closing on its own and the FO did not do anything to stop it. They didn't want to resign Cabrera, Pedro, Lowe, Millar, Mueller, Damon, etc., so they didn't. It's not always about who is going to have the better career, but who is better for your team right now.

 

They haven't done it perfectly but I truly think this team has a tremendous core of players with which to move forward. This offseason and the 07 season will show a lot about how things are going to play out.

[a700hitter]

They haven't done it perfectly but I truly think this team has a tremendous core of players with which to move forward. This offseason and the 07 season will show a lot about how things are going to play out.

I disagree. I think their plan since 2004 has been poorly conceived and the execution was even worse. The FO acted like a bunch of babies last off-season with the destructive power struggle culminating in Theo's hissy fit quitting and rehiring. They botched last year's team badly and to their credit they held themselves accountable. I think they know that they have something to prove, and they have been indicating that they are playing to win, but their biggest short-coming has been their lack of follow through.

[example1]

I disagree. I think their plan since 2004 has been poorly conceived and the execution was even worse. The FO acted like a bunch of babies last off-season with the destructive power struggle culminating in Theo's hissy fit quitting and rehiring. They botched last year's team badly and to their credit they held themselves accountable. I think they know that they have something to prove' date=' and they have been indicating that they are playing to win, but their biggest short-coming has been their lack of follow through.[/quote']

 

I can see how you would think that, and its certainly a plausible analysis. I just disagree, and you know that we agree to disagree around this topic. They definitely have something to prove, but its not "we messed up we repent"; its "we believe we know how to run a baseball team". I fall into the second camp and I think they'll show it.

 

I think their biggest short coming has been their lack of knowledge about how to build a bullpen out of component parts. Theo has said that has been their weakest area and it makes sense.

[Fried Neckbones]

I think something else to consider with Theo, and the front office in general, is their overall approach, their vision, if you will, of how to build a ballclub. When they took over, their primary focus was getting "unappreciated value" - the Bill James theory - and went looking for OBP guys. Your Millars, your Billy Muellers. Well, that worked great for a couple of years, culminating in 2004. They were fairly cutting edge up until that point. Now, every team looks for unappreciated value and overpays for it. Unappriciated value is next to impossible to find now. So, they sold off their now-appreciated value and cashed in on draft picks - a strategy shift. That should be coming to fruition in the next year or so as the guys they scooped up with all those compensatory picks (Pedroia, Ellsbury, Buchholtz, Bard, etc) come up to the bigs. The potential Manny trade could be seen as the last move within this mindset, and shifting into the new mindset: Now that the compensatory draft picks are going bye-bye, they are shifting paradigms yet again, and throwing money out there to boslter the youngsters. Matsuzaka, Drew, etc. It hasn't been perfect, but I think that the front office is trying to stay ahead of the curve with their philosophies.

 

I don't know where that is all going to, it just occured to me.:dunno: