Ballwashers Have It Tough

[a700hitter]

Here is my concession to the Ball washers, the Front Office apologists among us. I know that I aggravate the hell out of you, but I bear no ill will against you guys. You live and die with the team like I do. I feel your pain. Here is why it is hard to be you. First off, you are wrong. The FO has made a series of ill-conceived moves since 2004 that have dismantled a champion and fiercely competitive team. Unfortunately for you, if you are wrong in your philosophy, it means that your favorite team will be a loser. If I am wrong about criticizing the FO, that means our favorite team is a winner. I'll admit that it is much easier to be wrong and admit that you were wrong when your team is winning. Losing and being wrong is like a double dose of bad tasting medicine. As a critic of the FO, I have the added advantage of being able to defend my position even if the Sox go to the playoffs. Anything short of a World Series victory leaves me the opportunity to argue that the team would have been better had it not been for the mismanagement by the FO. It's not a level playing field. That's my concession to you ball washers. Unlike you guys, I can say good luck to you and I really hope you are right, because it will mean that the team will win.

 

That being said, this year is not even a close call. The dismantling of the Championship formula (notice I did not say team, because I have never advocated keeping that roster intact) is almost complete. All the FO needs to do is trade Manny and we will be finished as a WS contender for a minimum of 5 years. Who knows what the maximum will be.

 

Edit: BTW being critical of the FO and acknowledging that the Yankee FO has done a better job, does not mean that I should be a Yankee fan. You guys really need to start understanding that there is no logic in that argument. We compete with the Yankees. They keep beating us. Maybe they are doing something right and our management is doing something wrong. Maybe, just maybe, we should consider the possibility. I, for one, thought we had turned a corner in 2004 and that new ownership with a new philosophy was going to keep the pressure up on the Yanks and we would run off a string of AL East flags and championships. Apparently, I was wrong. What we got is more second fiddle status that we had under prior ownership and excuses. The only way this ownership is better is they have figured out a way to fill the house every night.

[Beckett95]

good post. I agree with pretty much all of it.

 

All the FO needs to do is trade Manny and we will be finished as a WS contender for a minimum of 5 years. Who knows what the maximum will be.

 

86 years??

[Pesky]

I agree with most of what you said. But come on, this front office brought a championship to us. You can't bitch at them for two years of iffyness. You have to be patient. There is no way we could have kept the same exact team in 2005 as we did in 2004. The Sox are on a budget, no matter how much you don't want to believe. Sure, they made some bad moves, but they don't have the money, like the Yankees, to recover. The Yankees have made just as many bad moves, but it doesn't matter, because they have no cap on their spending.

 

I remember after 2004, Peter Gammons said that the FO is playing with the house's money for the next few years. They brought a championship to Boston, after 86 years of drought. Gammons figured fans would be content.

 

Do you realize how hard it is to win in back to back years, or even 2 out of 3. It rarely ever happens.

 

If we had 200 million dollars to spend, we'd probably also have Randy Johnson, Bobby Abreu, or some extra money would've helped us get Oswalt at the deadline.

 

I am not an apologist, it's just that you are thinking too short term. You have unrealistic expectations. You want to be like the Yankees of recent, and ship out every prospect we have for the big names. That formula doesn't work. It hasn't worked in NY, and it certainly wont work here.

 

Bob Ryan said that everyone knew that prior to this season, that it was a rebuilding season. You are crazy if you don't see that. Papelbon, Lester, Delcarmen, Hansen, Coco, Youks and Wily Mo are all young, and some of them have really hurt us this year. But you can't give up on them because they have had some rough outings. They are all in the young 20s, and some had to be rushed up to the majors.

 

Whatever, I just think you have unrealistic expectations, and it is too easy for you to complain in hindsight. At the time, I thought Clement was a good signing, he was an all-star, then he got hit in the head and sucked. Foulke was a good signing, he brought us a ring, then he sucked. The Wily Mo for Arroyo deal was a good deal. Getting Coco Crisp was a good deal, we had to do it, he is young and cheap. Trading two of our top prospects for a WS MVP pitcher and an all-star 3rd baseman looked like a good deal, but hey, it can't always work out. Not re-signing Damon and Pedro may have been bad ideas, but Damon alone wouldn't make this team that much better than it is now, and Pedro is feasting on bad lineups, and still has the injury bug that the FO thought and new he had.

 

The difference is this; you want to win every year, which is unrealistic, and I want to be able to win eventually, which is realistic. You think this team, because of it's payroll should win every year, where I realize it takes years to build a championship team.

 

Whatever. This team has an amazing nucleus, and with some age, additions and patience, can become a championship team again.

 

You are just upset that we are sucking. If your mind cooled off for a while, you'd understand that you have unrealistic expectations of what this FO can do.

[BoSox21]

By keeping the 2004 team together, you tie a lot of money into rapidly declining bodies for a long period of time. Some of those decisions look bad right now (Damon, Pedro, even though Pedro is starting to break down) but some of those decisions look good (Millar, Mueller, who's career is probably over).

 

A good front office realizes that to be competitive on a fixed budget, constant evolution has to take place. A decision has to be made to cut certain veterans loose, keep other veterans and bring in an influx of young talent. So far, this FO has done that by keeping a base of Schilling, Ortiz, Manny, Nixon, Wakefield, Varitek and easing in the new talent like Papelbon, Beckett, Crisp, Pena, Youkilis, Delcarmen, Hansen and Lester. And next season, the evolution will continue with Pedroia most likely taking over for Loretta and a platoon of Hinske and Pena taking over for Nixon.

 

Part of me is tremendously disappointed in this year so far because of where the team was, and how far this team has fallen. But another part of me wonders how this team was ever really competitive considering the mess of the rotation (Schilling nonwithstanding) and the reliance of kids in the bullpen.

 

Taking all that into account, you have to like what the future looks like. The kids will be experienced and there will be a tremendous amount of payroll flexibility.

[a700hitter]

You are just upset that we are sucking. If your mind cooled off for a while, you'd understand that you have unrealistic expectations of what this FO can do.

I'm not going to rehash everything in your post, but yeah you are right that I am pissed that we are sucking. I thought we finally turned a corner in 2004 and that we would be beating up on the Yankees for a while and competing for World Championships. I thought new ownership was serious about making that happen. We are not beating the Yankees and we've got no chance at a World Championship. Most of all, I don't like the excuses that I am hearing about finances and budget and luxury taxes and not having the unlimited budget of the Yankees. Pardon me, but these are the same excuses that prior ownership used. I've heard that they can't react to what the Yankees are doing because they are not the only competition. That excuse makes me furious. Does that mean that we will concede the AL East every year except when we catch lightning in a bottle and a few of the kids turn out to be stars? I'm sorry, but that's BS. The Yankees are our competition so what they do directly impacts our team's chances. Last I looked we were in the AL East, not the NL West or AL West. When this ownership bought this team, they knew that it was in the AL East. They are in with the Yankees. This is the big boys division, so they should stop whining about budgets and finances and put out a team that will finally beat the Yankees. That should be their goal. It's ridiculous for us to sit here and think that the Yankees are a bottomless pit of money. They are running a business too, and the Boss is not the only owner. Their owners like making money too. Our fan base is every bit as big and monied as the Yankees fan base. It's up to the owners to figure out how to transform that into Yankee type profits. That's their job, and I frankly am not interested in how they accomplish it. I am only interested in the team they put on the field. SO, please FO stop whining about your budget and your finances. If you can't make the money the Yankees do, it's not because of a lack of fan support. I realize that they draw about a million more fans but that doesn't come close to making up for difference in payrolls. Yankee management makes money in ways unrelated to gate receipts. It's your job to figure out how to do that, and we don't care about the details, but stop using finances and budget as an excuse why you can't do what the Yankees do. You really sound like the many previous generations of incompetent owners and management. I though you were better than them. We expected more from you.

[Pesky]

700, could you spend a million dollars on a car if you didn't have the funds? No. I don't get what upsets you about the Sox having a limit on what they can spend. It is a fact that they can't spend more than they have. So what upsets you about this. They have brought in 1,000,000 less people then the Yankees already. They just don't have the funds. Why can't it be an excuse? It is a fact.

 

The bottom line is, they do have the second highest salary, and they aren't playing like it. They should certainly be better than the 5th best record that they hold. But they can't spend 200 million, so why does this piss you off so much. Theo can't make 3 million fans turn into 4 million. The Red Sox will never have as much money to spend as the Yankees.

 

You have unrealistic expectations. You can't rebuild a team in a year, and you can't have a playoff team every year, for the most part. Only two teams have/can do it. I understand your frustration, a lot of the moves have looked questionable. But the FO is looking towards the future, and you want now, now, now.

 

It's amazing how you can forget that Theo brought a championship to Boston. And since he did it, you seem to think he should do it every year, which is ludacris.

[ksushi]

Really all I have to say is that sometimes patience pays off. I'm sure I was at least one of the people who inspired you to make this lovely thread. The Sox aren't cutting back and I haven't heard them use money as an excuse. Maybe you should get a girlfriend, or check out some internet porn and make some knuckle children, but really get a life. The sox didn't pull the trigger on huge contracts to veterans like Damon, Pedro ( on his second DL stint this season) and others. SO WHAT!! Those are good moves. Yeah, they did nothing at the deadline, I was mad too. There were small moves to be made and they weren't made. As for Abreu, who cares? Do you want him for a season and a half at 26 million dollars? I don't. Let the Yankees take that one. If it means they take the AL east this year, then so be it. I'm fine with that. The FO does need to step up, but that time will come this winter. This isn't about the ownership being stingy. This is about the sox putting some bullets in the chamber that won't fade after one post season push, but will last for years of division title runs. Lester, Hansen, Delcarmen, Papelbon are a good foundation to build from, with FA acquisitions this offseason, we should be the favorites next year. We better be. If winning this season meant jeopardizing that foundation, as much as you would like to pull the trigger to win now, 700, can you really say its worth it considering the leg up those guys at such a low cost give you in the future?

[a700hitter]

Maybe you should get a girlfriend, or check out some internet porn and make some knuckle children, but really get a life.

I have a wife that might get pissed if I took a girlfriend. My two kids are in college and they are top students at excellent universities. Thank you very much for your interest in my life. I guess you guys are okay with the Yankees eating our lunch year after year. I remember a time after Steinbrenner was the owner when we ate their lunch more often than they ate ours, but that all ended in 1996. In the late 60's, early 70's and 80's the Red Sox had less financial resources than the Yankees, but the owners figured out a way. That all earned in 1996, and we are told that we can't compete with the Yankees finances. I'm sorry, buty it's an excuse. If you guys are okay with the Yankees taking the Division every year, good for you. It doesn't sit well with me. You might have a different perspective on the issue if you had to live among Yankee fans.

[Cocos Disciples]

Yeah the Yankees spanked us and called us Sally in 2004.

[Dana Kiecker]

Its not just this year.. this FO f***ed up with the Tek oversigning last year, the extension of Trots contract the year before , and .... well... maybe that just so compounds it all ....it really is the biggest f***up in mlb going..

 

This FO is a joke, and the mental midget on the bench is just the icing...

[a700hitter]

700, could you spend a million dollars on a car if you didn't have the funds? No. I don't get what upsets you about the Sox having a limit on what they can spend. It is a fact that they can't spend more than they have. So what upsets you about this. They have brought in 1,000,000 less people then the Yankees already. They just don't have the funds. Why can't it be an excuse? It is a fact.

Just because it is a fact doesn't mean that it isn't an excuse. If it wasn't a fact, it would be a lie in addition to being an excuse. It's an excuse and it's the same one we heard when Haywood Sullivan and Buddy Leroux owned the team and let Fisk walk away and they gave away Freddie Lynn and Rick Burleson. It's the same excuse used by the Yawkey trust. It may be a fact, but it's still an excuse.

[CrespoBlows]

All right big man, let's take this outside.

[a700hitter]

All right big man, let's take this outside.

I've go no beef with TalkSox members unless they call me bandwagon or tell me to root for the Skankees.

[PinstripesForLife]

2004 is a distant memory...

 

 

 

BOSTON F*CKIN SUCKS. 'NUFF SAID

 

 

:harhar:

 

Mod Edit: This is the most profound and intelligent post currently on our site. Just an update. This person is clearly highly intelligent and probably is near or at the top of their middle school class. Congratulations.

[PinstripesForLife]

This is a funny thread because it's saying how wise the Red Sox are for taking a year off or whatever you people call losing miserably these days...

 

the yankees have 2 ridiculous power pitchers ready to pitch in 1-2 years, we're gonna sign the WBC mvp this offseasn, OH...and our horrible farm system is ALSO boasting Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano who are absolutely annihilating the Sox this year...

 

I hope every one of you cries tonight because you suck ass.

[a700hitter]

2004 is a distant memory...

 

 

 

BOSTON F*CKIN SUCKS. 'NUFF SAID

 

 

:harhar:

When some team breaks -- I mean ties- the Yankee record for the biggest post-season choke, then 2004 is over, but until then it lives on like Dimaggio's winning streak. That must have been some dark 4 days and night for you. What a slow torturous death for a team. Be proud of your unbreakable record.

[ksushi]

700, don't take my snide personal jabs so... personally. They're jokes. But yeah, living among Yankees fans must be a pain. Our situation sucks, and this team doesn't have what it takes to compete with the top teams in the game right now. The Yankees aren't even the meanest team out there and they are undressing us. Its too bad, but I think when the Yankees took that leap to get Abreu and Lidle, it made them a different team and the Sox didn't want to spend the talent neccessary to keep up with them because it wasn't in line with their long term plans. It sucks now, but we'll enjoy this next year.

 

It better be next year too, I like building for the future... but these guys are here now and while they might not be ready to carry the load alone, put the pieces around them and let them grow into big roles while winning.

 

Watching Papelbon get hit last night hurt me deep. Thats not cool. This is like having someone break into your house take all your favorite things and then kick your dog.

[ORS]

My $0.02:

 

I think this ownership group has earned a little patience from the fanbase. They opened up the purse strings and brought in the missing pieces to win the first championship in almost 100% of the base's lifetimes. After that, if it is their wont to retool the team, then I'll give them a pass while that happens.

 

Do I agree with it 100%? Not necesarrily. I think the 3/4 duo of Ortiz and Manny is pretty historic, and it makes sense to surround them with the talent needed to make a serious run at a few championships. I understand that doing that now would sacrafice something of the 2009 and beyond team, but what those two are doing is a rare feat.

 

That said, I'm not going to call what they are doing incompetent until we see what's what a few years down the road. My early inclination is to say they've been pretty stupid. I will give them the benefit of time to build the team they have envisioned, but at this rate, it better be pretty good, because I think they are wasting a golden opportunity. If the "future" they are protecting doesn't turn out to be worth the lost opportunity, then heads should roll.

[Mr Crunchy]

the yankees are a soft ball team that will be happy to get to the playoffs but we all know theyre not going anywhere

they beat up suck pitching

everyone does

but teams like anaheim shut them down all the time because they pitch well

we dont

thats why we're not going anywhere

the yanks dont pitch well either

thats why they aint going anywhere as well

[a700hitter]

700, don't take my snide personal jabs so... personally. They're jokes. But yeah, living among Yankees fans must be a pain. Our situation sucks, and this team doesn't have what it takes to compete with the top teams in the game right now. The Yankees aren't even the meanest team out there and they are undressing us. Its too bad, but I think when the Yankees took that leap to get Abreu and Lidle, it made them a different team and the Sox didn't want to spend the talent neccessary to keep up with them because it wasn't in line with their long term plans. It sucks now, but we'll enjoy this next year.

 

It better be next year too, I like building for the future... but these guys are here now and while they might not be ready to carry the load alone, put the pieces around them and let them grow into big roles while winning.

 

Watching Papelbon get hit last night hurt me deep. Thats not cool. This is like having someone break into your house take all your favorite things and then kick your dog.

I know don't take your remarks as personal. I was just being snide back. I felt bad for papelbon because our idiot manager put him in an impossible situation and he ended up using him for two innings anyway. It was a collosal blunder by Tito and we all knew it as we were watching it. This was not 20--20 hindsight criticism. He compounded his initial mistake of bringing in Timlin to start the 8th by bringing in Javy Lopez with 2 on.

[Mr Crunchy]

tito used curtis leskanic in game 4,2004 down 0-3 against the yanks in xtra innings

do we grasp how close we came to never hearing about a bloody sock becuase of titos quirky moves??

 

f*** him too

[a700hitter]

tito used curtis leskanic in game 4,2004 down 0-3 against the yanks in xtra innings

do we grasp how close we came to never hearing about a bloody sock becuase of titos quirky moves??

 

f*** him too

Leskanic was at least a seasoned professional that had experienced substantial professional success. He had a damaged shoulder, but a seasoned professional has the poise and knowledge how to get buy even when not at his best. A kid like Lopez is just totally overwhelmed in a big situation. Also, there was no one left in the Pen in '04 when he went to Leskanic. The better options had either been used or were worn out. Last night he had a rested Papelbon and he started the inning with an old tired Timlin and followed him with a nervous rookie while Papelbon sat in the pen.

[PinstripesForLife]

When some team breaks -- I mean ties- the Yankee record for the biggest post-season choke, then 2004 is over, but until then it lives on like Dimaggio's winning streak. That must have been some dark 4 days and night for you. What a slow torturous death for a team. Be proud of your unbreakable record.

 

Whatever helps you sleep at night, loser.

 

See you in 84 years dickhead.

 

Boston Massacre Pt. II

 

http://www.nomaas.org

 

P.S. The definition of a slow torturous death is getting embarassed at home in August and slowly perishing over 2 months. Yikes.

[PinstripesForLife]

the yankees are a soft ball team that will be happy to get to the playoffs but we all know theyre not going anywhere

they beat up suck pitching

everyone does

but teams like anaheim shut them down all the time because they pitch well

we dont

thats why we're not going anywhere

the yanks dont pitch well either

thats why they aint going anywhere as well

 

Shut up pussy.

 

I've seen more titles in 21 years of life than all of Red Sox Nation combined. Blow me.

[Manny Goes Boom]

Shut up pussy.

 

I've seen more titles in 21 years of life than all of Red Sox Nation combined. Blow me.

 

Now I know why people are so worried about the future of the country...because of people like this. You're 21??? Wow...

[Youk Of The Nation]

Shut up pussy.

 

I've seen more titles in 21 years of life than all of Red Sox Nation combined. Blow me.

 

 

When the titles you've seen include 'The Beginners Guide to Gay Dominatrix Porn', I dont think you should be bragging, fella. Enjoy your imminent banishment from the site, and the subsequent search for another place that'll let you feel like a big man for a few hours.

[BoSox21]

Shut up pussy.

 

I've seen more titles in 21 years of life than all of Red Sox Nation combined. Blow me.

 

you didnt even have hair on your nuts the last time the yankees won the series, you lush. say what you want, but dont argue the facts:

 

winning 4 straight in October and slapping history in the face > winning 5 straight in August with 39 games to play

[Cocos Disciples]

When the titles you've seen include 'The Beginners Guide to Gay Dominatrix Porn', I dont think you should be bragging, fella. Enjoy your imminent banishment from the site, and the subsequent search for another place that'll let you feel like a big man for a few hours.

 

I laughed for a good mintue on this.

 

But seriously though, PFL, go suck a cock.

[a700hitter]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, loser.

 

See you in 84 years dickhead.

 

Boston Massacre Pt. II

 

http://www.nomaas.org

 

P.S. The definition of a slow torturous death is getting embarassed at home in August and slowly perishing over 2 months. Yikes.

Wow, you must still feel the pain. You should it 's a record. In more than 100 years it haqs never been done. I t was excruciating. Even the Homer Micahel Kay admitted that he got pyhyically ill watching the Red Sox celebrate on the hallowed ground of that toilet that was built for a former Red Sox pitcher. You may have seen a 4 champiuonships when you were still getting your second set of teeth, but ythe yankeeshave never inflicted pain on us like the Red Sox did on you in those 4 ALCS games.

[PinstripesForLife]

Wow, you must still feel the pain. You should it 's a record. In more than 100 years it haqs never been done. I t was excruciating. Even the Homer Micahel Kay admitted that he got pyhyically ill watching the Red Sox celebrate on the hallowed ground of that toilet that was built for a former Red Sox pitcher. You may have seen a 4 champiuonships when you were still getting your second set of teeth, but ythe yankeeshave never inflicted pain on us like the Red Sox did on you in those 4 ALCS games.

 

Nah man, on a serious note...those four games were bad, but hey that was then and this is now and I don't know any Yankees fans who give a s*** about 2004 anymore, its good it happened- it made us all tougher and hate you that much more...the Red Sox have 86 years of chokes stored away on video tape, the Yankees had one weeks worth pretty much...I have a good website that chronicles decade after decade of Red Sox humiliation I can send you (its astonishing!) all while the Yankees have won 39 pennants and 26 world titles. yes you may have won more recently, but that will change soon enough...and frankly, your team is absolutely terrible. Really, really bad. Your organization sucks, your New England culture sucks, I hate Boston with every bone in my body because you're all pussy whiners who have an inferiority complex with New Yorkers; and it gets tiring to see all those losers with backwards visors in the bleachers at Fenway bang each other with Manny's dreadlocks on Sportscenter every so often.

 

All past arguments aside, you guys got a good ol South Bronx ass whooping this weekend in your backyard and your team is desperately flawed- now and in the near future.

 

Cheers to the second place Red Sox, time and time again.

 

Thank you all for another timeless summer collapse. The whole country is laughing at you.