Wily Mo revisited

[schillingouttheks]

the trade was bad and we know that but the real problem is david wells we gambeled on him from the start ..and now we know we lost ... i mean he doesent evevn want a rehab start ....come on if he did we would of know he was done ... hes the real problem ... arroy is great dont get me wrong but we need more than just him ...

I stand by this trade, and I'd do it again. There is absolutely no way anyone thought we'd be in this situation. As said before, you can never have enough pitching, but look at how WMP has helped this team. He's a huge power threat in the lineup, and how do you think Arroyo would be doing this year in the AL East? Unlike you state it, Arroyo is not great. The NL Central has caught up to him, and he's fading fast. You think he'd be able to stay afloat in the East? Yeah, right.

 

Nixon's days are over.

[jsinger121]

He's lost like 6 straight decisions hasn't he?

 

0-5 with a 5.29 era in his last 10 starts.

[schillingouttheks]

He's lost like 6 straight decisions hasn't he?

Lost his last 5 decisions, hasn't won in 10 outings.

[jacksonianmarch]

I thought this was a bad trade from day 1. Why? Wily Mo has a lot of talent but he hasnt proven he can be an effective day to day player. This yr, once again, a small sample size, he may be showing signs of breaking out. His MO is loads of power but easy to figure out and over the long haul, that will translate into tons of K's, lots of HRs, and a low BA. His BA will fall as the league learns him a little bit.

 

Either way, the deal of arroyo was one that should have irked a lot of sox fans. You deal away a guy who doesnt back down against anyone and he was the most consistent starter on the sox last yr. Take a look at his QS%. His was top 5 in the AL last yr and led the red sox team. He was never spectacular, but he'd go 6 and give up 3 like it was easy. Also, the guy LOVED Boston. He signed for well under market value to stay in the city he loved, and as it turns out, after he signs that deal, he never puts on the Boston uniform again.

 

Now, for those of you who say that Wily Mo is better, think about the possibilities. Everyone knew that Oswalt was available for Andruw Jones. It was known, it was easy, it was there. The Braves wanted to get younger in both the pen and in the rotation. They wanted Crisp, Lester, and Hansen. Crisp has become a major bust and was readily expendable even if Wily Mo wasnt there (Kapler is better than Crisp these days). Hansen is closing in on bust status as his stuff is good, but it is flat and hitters love it, so he would have been easy to part with. The sox refused to part with Lester. It had nothing to do with Lester being projected as a fine MLB starter one day or anything, it had everything to do with the fact that it still didnt address the sox main need, and that was 2 more spots in the rotation. Assuming the sox never make the Wily Mo deal, then Arroyo is the 3, Lester the 4, and Wells the 5. If Arroyo was not dealt, I have no doubt in my mind that Oswalt is suiting up in the Boston locker room.

 

In essence, this trade screwed the sox out of a back of the rotation starter who has proven he can play in Boston. It showed how disloyal the FO is and hence will make any other resigning nearly impossible unless the sox go market value or higher. And, it screwed the sox out of obtaining one of the best young PROVEN aces in the game. Tell me how having Wily Mo vs having a few more wins and having Schill, Oswalt, Beckett, Arroyo, Wells coming at you 1-5. That would have been a beast to overcome in a playoff series and in the chase for the east. Theo blew it, and this trade was the totality of it all.

[yeszir]

0-5 with a 5.29 era in his last 10 starts.

No wonder my fantasy team is tanking.

[riverside sluggers]

Again stop with this Bronson for Wily Mo Pena trade s***

[jacksonianmarch]

Again stop with this Bronson for Wily Mo Pena trade s***

 

that is what this thread is about am I right?

[schillingouttheks]

Again stop with this Bronson for Wily Mo Pena trade s***

Yes, agreed. What's done is done. Deal with it.

[riverside sluggers]

Yes, agreed. What's done is done. Deal with it.

 

Some posters, like rician blast, mr crunchy, A700 all say that they will still be mad with the trade even if next season Wily Mo Pena puts up 30 HRs/100 RBIs. Yea thats logical, put on this dunce cap and sit in the corner

[jacksonianmarch]

Some posters, like rician blast, mr crunchy, A700 all say that they will still be mad with the trade even if next season Wily Mo Pena puts up 30 HRs/100 RBIs. Yea thats logical, put on this dunce cap and sit in the corner

 

Look at the reasoning though. To say you want to put it in the past is fine, because that is what it is, but to say that it didnt prevent the sox from making her deals, well you are wrong. If Wily Mo goes out and hits .280/30/100 next yr, that would be all well and good. But if by getting him, you gave up a shot at Oswalt, well then no matter what Wily Mo does, he wont be able to replace the ace that could have been. Consider the spare parts that Atl wanted from Boston. The only guy with true value would have been Lester, and replacing Lester for Oswalt is a huge upgrade. Arroyo vs Pena 1 on 1 is bad for this yr, but likely good for the future. The prevention of getting Oswalt is both bad for this yr and for the future. See what I mean?

[schillingouttheks]

If Clement wasn't such a friggin headcase, we probably could have gotten that done.

 

By the way, I just remembered, I had a dream that Clement was starting tonight's game

[jacksonianmarch]

If Clement wasn't such a friggin headcase, we probably could have gotten that done.

 

By the way, I just remembered, I had a dream that Clement was starting tonight's game

 

Or if the sox had Petey instead of Clement it would have gotten done. Just kidding man, it was just too easy.

[riverside sluggers]

Even if Arroyo was on this team still, Theo wouldve not gotten rid of Lester. He prides himself a lot on the prospects he has hand-picked. Look at the the trades over recent past where teams had asked for Lester-- Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, Josh Beckett, Arod

[schillingouttheks]

I love Petey. I wish we still had him, so I'm right on board with you on that one. He's probably my favorite pitcher of all time just because of his sheer dominance in his years on the Sox.

[jacksonianmarch]

Even if Arroyo was on this team still, Theo wouldve not gotten rid of Lester. He prides himself a lot on the prospects he has hand-picked. Look at the the trades over recent past where teams had asked for Lester-- Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, Josh Beckett, Arod

 

I think Lester's stock has dropped this season. He isnt the pitcher he was billed as. His heat is not what it was billed as and he seems to lack an out pitch. He was billed as a young Koufax type player, but he is more of a Ted Lilly type. Also, none of the guys you listed above were both young and sure things. Oswalt is young, healthy, and basically a sure thing. Beckett was too injury prone to throw Lester into a deal, RJ and Schilling too old and ARod too gay.

[a700hitter]

Some posters, like rician blast, mr crunchy, A700 all say that they will still be mad with the trade even if next season Wily Mo Pena puts up 30 HRs/100 RBIs. Yea thats logical, put on this dunce cap and sit in the corner

Check the threads. I haven't been a big opponent of this trade. Sure we could've used a pitcher in our rotation, but criticizing this trade has not been one of my pet peeves. Here a my major issues in order. Everyone says they are sick of them, but apparently I must repeat them because my positions are continuously misrepresented:

 

1. Damon and Pedro should have been retained as they were part of the core foundation of the Championship team

 

2. The FO should have made some acquisitions to bolster the 2006 roster. If a blockbuster couldn't be made, lesser deals certainly had to be available.

[BoSox34]

that is what this thread is about am I right?

 

Haha, you're right.

[jsinger121]

I think Lester's stock has dropped this season. He isnt the pitcher he was billed as. His heat is not what it was billed as and he seems to lack an out pitch. He was billed as a young Koufax type player, but he is more of a Ted Lilly type. Also, none of the guys you listed above were both young and sure things. Oswalt is young, healthy, and basically a sure thing. Beckett was too injury prone to throw Lester into a deal, RJ and Schilling too old and ARod too gay.

 

Billing him as a Koufax type player is ridiculous and that was never the case. He has never been called that ever coming up through minors. His MLB comparison is more like Andy Petitte and he will never be confused with Koufax.

[jacksonianmarch]

Gammons billed him as a 94-95 pitcher with a sharp biting curve. He is more a 90-92 pitcher with a big loopy curve.

[jsinger121]

Gammons hardly saw him in the minors and used other peoples info. Lester at times can get up that high but not throughout the game with he use 94-95. Comparing him to a hall of famer is flat out ridiculous especially maybe the best left handed pitcher ever.

[jacksonianmarch]

Gammons hardly saw him in the minors and used other peoples info. Lester at times can get up that high but not throughout the game with he use 94-95. Comparing him to a hall of famer is flat out ridiculous especially maybe the best left handed pitcher ever.

 

That is what I said when I heard the comparison. I expected to see a kid come up and have Liriano type stuff. Instead he has Lilly type stuff.

[jsinger121]

That is what I said when I heard the comparison. I expected to see a kid come up and have Liriano type stuff. Instead he has Lilly type stuff.

 

Wherever you heard that you heard wrong because I have been following him since he has been in single A and he has never been compared to Koufax at all.

[jacksonianmarch]

Regardless of the comparison, he isn't a "special player" type guy with freakish stuff like I thought he was. He is a guy who could be really good someday, but his stuff doesnt translate to ace material. If you could get Oswalt for him, then you do it.

[jsinger121]

His stuff is Andy Petitte basically and too me he was a pretty damn good pitcher. And who knows if you could have gotten Oswalt for him. Everything is speculation and the amount that the Red Sox would have had to give up would have been ridiculous to get him. Give the kid a break but you can't since you have no patience.

[jacksonianmarch]

His stuff is Andy Petitte basically and too me he was a pretty damn good pitcher. And who knows if you could have gotten Oswalt for him. Everything is speculation and the amount that the Red Sox would have had to give up would have been ridiculous to get him. Give the kid a break but you can't since you have no patience.

 

I have a lot of patience. But, if you have the chance to nab a 28 yr old ace for him, how do you not pull the trigger?

[jsinger121]

I have a lot of patience. But, if you have the chance to nab a 28 yr old ace for him, how do you not pull the trigger?

 

He's actually going to be 29 in 2 weeks and he is a little guy. I am also very wary of his violent delivery and how he would hold up. Giving up a ridiculous amount for him is not the way to go.

[a700hitter]

He's actually going to be 29 in 2 weeks and he is a little guy. I am also very wary of his violent delivery and how he would hold up. Giving up a ridiculous amount for him is not the way to go.

I love his .667 career winning percentage. I want guys on the team that know how to put up W's. Usually, then can lose something off there ball and still be big winners like Schilling, Pedro etc.

[Cocos Disciples]

Oswalt:

 

Has never had an ERA over 3.50.

 

Twice, not including this year, in his 5 year career, has he had an ERA over 3. One of those years, he had an ERA of 3.01.

 

He twice has had 20 wins, another year he got 19.

 

He is a very good pitcher. Very good. Better than Lester will ever be IMO.

[jsinger121]

He is also pitching in the NL and has a little frame. Pedro also had a little frame but had better stuff and a not so violent delivery as Oswalt and was also younger when he was acquired.

[a700hitter]

He is also pitching in the NL and has a little frame. Pedro also had a little frame but had better stuff and a not so violent delivery as Oswalt and was also younger when he was acquired.

If he can put up wins in the NL, he can put them up in the AL. His ERA might go higher, but all AL pitchers have to face the same hitters. The hitting might be better in the AL than the NL, but in each league the pitchers have a level playing field with regard to the pitchers in that league. As a proven big winner in the NL, he'd find a way to put up W's in the AL.