Official NBA thread

[Bellhorn04]

I do not agree that fewer teams makes it easier. It’s not like rolling a dice where each side/team has equal probability. In fact, fewer teams actually ups the overall talent in the league, making repeating more difficult.

 

Do you have any data to back that theory up?

[notin]

Do you have any data to back that theory up?

 

That would require research beyond my interests.

 

But if it helps, only the Bulls, Lakers, Celtics, Rockets, Warriors, Pistons, Mavericks, Spurs, and Heat won titles between 1980 and 2015. That’s a LOT of recent repeating.

 

But there isn’t any way to prove what’s harder. But right now, the NBA has 30 teams, which means the best 360 players make the NBA. In an 16 team league, only the best 192 make the league. Stands to reason talent is more concentrated, what without the worst 168 players hanging around....

[notin]

Do you have any data to back that theory up?

 

And why am I supplying the data?

 

You’re the one who postulated the rings argument was weaker due to smaller league size. Where’s your data?

[moonslav59]

To me, Wilt and Russell dominated their era more than Jordan, and they did it for longer.

 

To me, it's not about how good Wilt or Russell would be in Jordan's era. We'll never know. I go by the numbers as compared to other players in their era and ring totals where the player was an essential piece to winning all the rings. Yes, the Celts had some great teams, but Russell was essential. How many do they win without him? Maybe as much as the Bulls without Jordan: zero. (Maybe not)

 

How would Jordan have done in the 60's? Maybe he'd beat the Celtics single-handedly, but we'll never know.

 

While the league was smaller back in the 60's, it may not have been so watered down.

[moonslav59]

And why am I supplying the data?

 

You’re the one who postulated the rings argument was weaker due to smaller league size. Where’s your data?

 

Bill Russell was beating Wilt Chamberlain many of those ring years, and Wilt had some great supporting casts many of those years.

 

Paul Arizan, Al Attles, Guy Rodgers & Tom Gola

Nate Thurmond & Wayne Hightower

Hal Greer, Cher Walker, Billy Cunningham & Wali Jones (Luke Jackson/Larry Costello)Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Happy Hairiston & Dick Garrett

 

The St. Louis Hawks had Bob Petite, Cliff Hagan (20+ pts/10+ Reb), Clyde Lovellette (20+/10+) & Lenny Wilkens

 

The earlier Laker teams also had Dick Barnett and more.

 

[Bellhorn04]

And why am I supplying the data?

 

You’re the one who postulated the rings argument was weaker due to smaller league size. Where’s your data?

 

It was because your theory is counter-intuitive.

 

Logically, the more teams, the more rounds of playoffs, the harder it is for a team to repeat.

 

But that may not apply to the NBA, because we still see a relatively small number of teams dominate.

[Bellhorn04]

Simple:

1. Jim Brown

2. Lawrence

3. Tom

 

And yet Tom crushes the other two with his rings.

[notin]

It was because your theory is counter-intuitive.

 

Logically, the more teams, the more rounds of playoffs, the harder it is for a team to repeat.

 

But that may not apply to the NBA, because we still see a relatively small number of teams dominate.

 

Also logically, the more teams, the more widespread the talent.

 

After all, even with more rounds and “tougher repeating” we still saw only 9 different teams win in a 35 year stretch.

 

Even nowadays, face it, no sports lends itself more to repeating...

[notin]

And yet Tom crushes the other two with his rings.

 

I’m a diehard Patriots’ fan, and placing Brady third on the NFL All Time greatest player list after Jim Brown and LT is perfectly defensible. I have no problem with that.

 

When you start measuring greatness in rings, you have to be prepared to explain why you’re saying Steve Kerr and Robert Horry are greater players than Karl Malone and Reggie Miller...

[Bellhorn04]

I’m a diehard Patriots’ fan, and placing Brady third on the NFL All Time greatest player list after Jim Brown and LT is perfectly defensible. I have no problem with that.

 

I'm not a fan of comparing quarterbacks to running backs or linebackers.

 

Just as I'm not a fan of comparing Bill Russell to Michael Jordan.

 

I don't get the obsessive need to have one at the top of the list.

[moonslav59]

And yet Tom crushes the other two with his rings.

 

Basketball rings can be won with just one superstar- Football, not so much.

 

Compare Russells 11 rings in 13 years plus two NCAA championships to Brady's 6 in 20 seasons- nothing to sneeze at but football takes a team of 40+ players, a coach and a few stars. Just my take.

[moonslav59]

I'm not a fan of comparing quarterbacks to running backs or linebackers.

 

Just as I'm not a fan of comparing Bill Russell to Michael Jordan.

 

I don't get the obsessive need to have one at the top of the list.

 

I hear you, and I do like the idea of comparing like positioned or skilled player to each other, but eventually I can't help but take the next step- comparing the very best from each category to the others to give my opinion on the GOAT.

 

To me, it's about who dominated his era, his position (maybe even revolutionized the position in some cases) and was the most essential player on his team when winning championships. It's not all about championships, that's why I have Wilt #1. Russell's stats back up his #2 slot as much as the rings.

[Thunder]

The former coach at my HS, who cut me my freshman year and changed my life by doing so, made an appearance on The Last Dance last night

[notin]

I'm not a fan of comparing quarterbacks to running backs or linebackers.

 

Just as I'm not a fan of comparing Bill Russell to Michael Jordan.

 

I don't get the obsessive need to have one at the top of the list.

 

The football positions have greater disparity. Really in the NBA it’s not so different.

 

I mean, we have had a couple threads dedicated to football greats, and a lot of names thrown around. And not once did anyone mention an offensive lineman.

 

That’s wild. A football game is typically won or lost at the line of scrimmage, but no one ever credits any of that to o-lineman. Why has no one mentioned John Hannah or Jonathan Ogden or Bruce Matthews as one the the greatest NFL players ever?

 

With basketball, the argument usually involves a few different positions. Jordan (SG), Bird (F), LeBron (2-3 swingman), Russell (C ) to name a few...

Edited May 11, 2020 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

The football positions have greater disparity. Really in the NBA it’s not so different.

 

I mean, we have had a couple threads dedicated to football greats, and a lot of names thrown around. And not once did anyone mention an offensive lineman.

 

That’s wild. A football game is typically won or lost at the line of scrimmage, but no one ever credits any of that to o-lineman. Why has no one mentioned John Hannah or Jonathan Ogden or Bruce Matthews as one the the greatest NFL players ever?

 

With basketball, the argument usually involves a few different positions. Jordan (SG), Bird (F), LeBron (2-3 swingman), Russell (C ) to name a few...

 

I agree with the point about linemen.

 

And it's true that there isn't as much difference in basketball.

 

But there is a pretty big difference in the skill sets of Russell and Jordan, IMO.

[notin]

I agree with the point about linemen.

 

And it's true that there isn't as much difference in basketball.

 

But there is a pretty big difference in the skill sets of Russell and Jordan, IMO.

 

Different skills to play different positions inbasketball, but when you look at the stats, we all see PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, etc. and a lot of the newer, cooler ones. And that is what makes up the record books.

 

With football, each position has it's own set of applicable stats (with some crossover). And not one of those stats is used to measure O-linemen....

[Bellhorn04]

Different skills to play different positions inbasketball, but when you look at the stats, we all see PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, etc. and a lot of the newer, cooler ones. And that is what makes up the record books.

 

Looks like Jordan is the career leader in some of the key advanced stats.

[moonslav59]

I agree with the point about linemen.

 

And it's true that there isn't as much difference in basketball.

 

But there is a pretty big difference in the skill sets of Russell and Jordan, IMO.

 

Yes, but even little and mid-sized players can get rebounds- sometimes lots of 'em. Big guys can make a lot of assists. All can score, although some in much different ways, but football players never or rarely do any of the tasks asked of different positions on the team- like throw or run with the ball, cover a fast receiver or block or tackle someone.

 

We saw Magic Johnson, one of the best point guards in the history of the game play the center position in a key playoff game and totally dominate.

 

We saw Wilt get near and over 8 assists per game for 2 years in a row when needed, while still averaging 24 points and 24 rebounds.

 

We saw Oscar Robertson average a triple double in his first 3-4 years combined- while scoring 30+ points!

 

We saw the NCAA change the dunking rules for Lew Alcindor (Jabbar) and watched him develop an unstoppable hook shot.

 

No doubt, Jordan was among the best of the best, especially at the end of close playoff games. He dominated his era and put up some great numbers. 6 rings is amazing for that era, but Jabbar got 6 and Magic 5 in slightly overlapping eras.

[moonslav59]

Looks like Jordan is the career leader in some of the key advanced stats.

 

Wilt played a long time, and his numbers late in his career brought his overall numbers down.

 

Jordan ended up with a 30.12 pts/gm avg while Wilt finished at 30.07.

 

Wilt averaged 41.5 over his first 6 seasons combined. He also averaged 25.1 rebounds in that period (3 assists)! He never finished with less than 18 rebounds a game in all 15 seasons.

 

Advanced stats:

 

PER: Player Efficiency Rating:

Wilt led the league 8 times (all over 24.7). He had 10 straight years over 26.5 and 14 straight over 20. His last 2 seasons were 18.5 and 19.1. Career 26.1 (30.2 his first 6 seasons, 26.6 his next 4 seasons and 20.2 his last 5 with the Lakers.)

 

Jordan led the league 7 times (all over 27.7).He had 9 straight years over 25.8. His worst season was last at 10.3. Career 27.9- better than Wilt. (I'm not sure if he beats Wilt's first 13 seasons- the length of Jordan's career.

 

Win Shares/48

Wilt led the league in 8 seasons (all above .240). He had 11 straight seasons over .200 and only 2 below .200 in his 15 seasons (.192 and .167). Career .248 (He led the league in defensive win shares twice in his last 6 seasons

 

Jordan led the league in WS/48 eight times, too. (all above .270). He only had 7 straight seasons over .200 and was under .200 four times, including his last 2 with Washington. His career was .250 (.274 in his 11 years with the Bulls). Wilt was .267 his first 10 seasons.

 

I doubt anyone can ever top Wilt's first 4 years:

42.9 Pts (leader all 4 years)

26.0 reb (leader all 4 years)

2.5 Asts

 

or his first 7:

39.6 (led league all 7 years)

24.8 (led league 5 of 7 years)

3.4

 

Jordan in season's 3 through 6 (4 years)

34.5 (led all 4)

6.4 reb

6.2 Ast

 

Jordan's 3 through 9 years (7 years)

33.2 (led all 7, but led 3 more seasons afterwards)

6.4

6.0

 

The Big O's first 4 seasons

30.2

10.7

10.4 (3 time league leader in Ast)

 

He was still at triple double after 5 years 30.3/10.4/10.6

and 6 years 30.4/10.0/10.7

 

He nearly reached the triple double after 7 years and was still over 30 points!

30.4

9.4

10.7 (led league in 5 of 7 and then the next 2, so 7 of first 9 seasons)

 

Some amazing numbers by all three.

 

[notin]

Looks like Jordan is the career leader in some of the key advanced stats.

 

His greatness is not in question. No one disputes he isn’t among the top handful of players. And certainly any arguments that he isn’t the greatest don’t put him very far down on the list.

 

But I do think there are arguments for a few other players. And I don’t like the “six rings” argument at all. The advanced stats one is much better, IMO...

[moonslav59]

His greatness is not in question. No one disputes he isn’t among the top handful of players. And certainly any arguments that he isn’t the greatest don’t put him very far down on the list.

 

But I do think there are arguments for a few other players. And I don’t like the “six rings” argument at all. The advanced stats one is much better, IMO...

 

I agree, but using career numbers, even the advanced one penalizes players who played for more post prime seasons.

 

It's interesting to note that many of the best players of all time saw their best seasons in their first 7-9 seasons. Jordan took 2 seasons before reaching true elite greatness. (He did start in the NBA at age 21.)

 

Since each player had varying periods of elite greatness, it's hard to choose a method that is fair to all players, such as their best 7 to 10 years stretch or their best 7-10 seasons, even if they are spread out. However, I think this sort of study helps lessen the penalty some players have by playing longer. Players that retire before post prime will have advantaged career traditional per game and advanced stats than those who played 15+ seasons.

 

Here's a short study I put together:

 

Best 7 consecutive seasons:

Wilt (first 7)

39.6/24.8/3.5

Win Shares 141.4 (.266/48)

 

Jordan (Ages 23-29)

33.2/6.4/6.0

Win Shares 132.2 (.285)

 

The Big O (first 7)

30.4/9.4/10.7'

Win Shares 117.6 (.235)

 

Bill Russell (first 7)

17.1/23.1/3.5

WS 86.3 (.199)

 

Best 11 straight seasons:

Wilt (first 11)

34.3/24.2/4.5

Win Shares: 200.6 (.259)

 

Jordan (ages 23-34 not counting off year)

32.0/6.3/5.4

Win Shares 189.0 (.281)

 

The Big O (first 11)

28.3/ 8.2/10.1

Win Shares 166.6 (.220)

 

Bill Russell (first 11)

15.8/23.1/4.2

WS 144.4 (.201)

[moonslav59]

Top Win Share Seasons All Time:

Wilt 4 in top 8 (6 in top 15)

Kareem 3 of the top 7

Mikan (3 in top 12)

Jordan (9th place was his best and 4 in top 20)

LeBron (17th was his best and 2 in top 20)

Oscar Robertson (13th was his best and only top 20)

(Only David Robinson at #18 placed in the top 20)

 

 

 

[notin]

Top Win Share Seasons All Time:

Wilt 4 in top 8 (6 in top 15)

Kareem 3 of the top 7

Mikan (3 in top 12)

Jordan (9th place was his best and 4 in top 20)

LeBron (17th was his best and 2 in top 20)

Oscar Robertson (13th was his best and only top 20)

(Only David Robinson at #18 placed in the top 20)

 

 

 

 

 

Per Pro-Basketball-Reference.com, Kareem is the all time leader in Win Shares. But no one touts him as the GOAT...

[moonslav59]

Per Pro-Basketball-Reference.com, Kareem is the all time leader in Win Shares. But no one touts him as the GOAT...

 

I was lucky to see Kareem play back when I lived in Milwaukee. He was Lew Alcindor, then, and he brought the city a championship. He revolutionized the center position. His hook shot was undefendable. He ran the court very well, for a 7 footer. He defended very well, rebounded, and gave his teams what they needed.

 

I'm not usually one to reward players for longevity, but Kareem was great for a long, long time and a very big plus post-prime.

 

3 of the top 7 win shares seasons is second only to Wilt's 4 of top 8. Top 3 is about the highest I could say he is.

[notin]

I was lucky to see Kareem play back when I lived in Milwaukee. He was Lew Alcindor, then, and he brought the city a championship. He revolutionized the center position. His hook shot was undefendable. He ran the court very well, for a 7 footer. He defended very well, rebounded, and gave his teams what they needed.

 

I'm not usually one to reward players for longevity, but Kareem was great for a long, long time and a very big plus post-prime.

 

3 of the top 7 win shares seasons is second only to Wilt's 4 of top 8. Top 3 is about the highest I could say he is.

 

 

Ok.

 

Now say I posited that Kareem was the NBA GOAT based on his career Win Shares. What’s the defense for Jordan?

 

Also worth noting but outside the argument, Airplane! and Game of Death were both better movies than Space Jam...

[Bellhorn04]

Ok.

 

Now say I posited that Kareem was the NBA GOAT based on his career Win Shares. What’s the defense for Jordan?

 

Jordan doesn't need any 'defense'.

 

Career Win Shares per 48 minutes:

 

#1 Jordan

#7 Kareem

[notin]

Jordan doesn't need any 'defense'.

 

Career Win Shares per 48 minutes:

 

#1 Jordan

#7 Kareem

 

Now that’s a good argument for MJ...

[Bellhorn04]

Now that’s a good argument for MJ...

 

Also:

 

Career Player Efficiency Rating

 

#1 Jordan

#16 Kareem

[notin]

Also:

 

Career Player Efficiency Rating

 

#1 Jordan

#16 Kareem

 

Of course, you have yet to acknowledge Airplane! and Game of Death versus Space Jam...

[Bellhorn04]

Of course, you have yet to acknowledge Airplane! and Game of Death versus Space Jam...

 

True. But The Last Dance is pretty good. And Space Jam does at least have Bugs and Daffy...