Hugh2

You're missing my point. Yes, I'm purposely exluding 1.5- 2 years because I want guys who are cheap. The further away from free agency they are the cheaper they are. I think that's a relevant point when the point of contention is "controllable, young, proven" arms. The less years you have, the less control you have. I want to be good for more than 1.5 years. Spencer Strider costs 1 million dollars a year. Tanner Houck costs $770K Cutter Crawford costs $760K Dylan Cease costs $8 million Joe Ryan costs $760K Za Gallen $10 million Justin Steele - $4 million George Kirby - $780K When you have that on your roster, you have the capactity to go out and spend money elsewhere, Baseball is a team sport you need lots of good players. The more cheap cost controlled arms you have on your team the better you will be when you do spend money on talent.

When I add talent to my team, I'd PREFER them to be here long term. If they have 1-2 years left, they're not here long term. Unless of course you sign them, in which case you're spending BIG MONEY. This is why I set the bar at more than 2 years. I want guys under control long term You can only spend so much, that's reality, you can't build a rotation with 5 40 million dollar men. I want pitchers who are really really really good who are 3+ years away from free agency. What's that Hugh? those guys are rare? ... ... ... The point. But yes, we agree they need to be developed, which is the antitode here. Sox need to invest more in pitching, whether that be trading for prospects, investing in better trainings and pitching coaches, better scouting, and better drafting.

Again, as I said before, saying something rare isn't analogous with saying it never happens. I would point out there that going back 5 years to find an example is proof of this. I'll admit my scope is a little narrow, because it's rare you can't always trade for a cost controlled "proven" mlb starter. There isn't too many "Spencer Striders" out there with teams willingly looking to deal them. You have to either draft and develop them on your own, or trade for prospects who are still young and develop them, guys like the ones you pointed out along with Gallen in your previous post. And look, people remember the guys who worked out, no one remembers the Allen Websters or Ruby De La Rosas of the world; there are a lot more of those guys. I think you're including these guys into the young cost-controlled arms, I'm just adding "proven" into my definition, which seems relevant if you're a fan base that expects to compete now. Young, PROVEN, cost controlled, available arms are a very rare commodity. For the Sox to do such things requires them to trade MLB talent. If you want prospect packages like that, we'd be trading guys like Juran Duran, or Tanner Houck, maybe you can throw guys like Nick Pivetta at the deadline in there as well. I'm not opposed to trading for guys and developing them, our problem has been two-fold over the last decade or so. Not investing in pitchers in the draft, and not going a great job of developing pitchers, I've been a huge advocate of pouring money into the scouting and development department the last few years. Something the Sox ALLEGEDLY started under Bloom and have continued to ramp up under Breslow. For what it's worth, it looks like it's starting to pay off. Hopefully this is the tip of the iceberg.

I don't consider anyone with less than 1.5 years of control being cost controlled. When I think of trading for a guy with control I think of someone having 3 years left or so, I suppose to be fair we can say 2+ No one is saying those guys aren't traded, I'm saying it's very rare. That makes it hard, not impossible to find and trade for those guys. And usually makes them very expensive. A lot of the examples laid out here have been on the tail end. Guys who are either "prospects" or are rentals and get extended. Those are other avenues of brining in pitching talent as well. But almost no one is just giving away a proven ace with mutliple years of team control left, that's rare. Guys are developing and hoarding those guys. The fact that Sandy Alcantara or Pablo Lopez are traded for when they're "PROSPECTS" strengthens that argument. There's plenty of talented young arms that are traded for who become busts as well.

Proven*

You mean before he ever pitched in AA? So in other words it was easier when he was a prospect? And not when he was a cost controlled probable MLB arm with years of team control left.????? Which continues to be my argument.

Feel confident you can do so*

Weren’t all those guys rentals? Sure some of them signed extensions and that’s the right ideal if you trade for them and feel co didn’t you can do so. But didn’t they all have .5-1 year or team control.

And how many of those guys are TOTRS? 3 of them don’t even have MLB experience. Teams are more willing to deal prospects than young, proven, cost controlled pitching e.g. white Sox Chris Sale. It’s a lot easier to trade for the next Josh Winckowski than it is Spencer Strider.

So you’re saying the FO might be full of crap? I agree

If the season ended today and you wanted to judge per FWar, Duran would be a top 10 candidate for MVP, and Tanner Houck would be your Cy Young. Sox farm system is looking good, they should probably be on everyones top 10 mid season, I suspect they will be in some top 5's. FO always said they'd spend when the time is right, they might get their chance this offseason.

Teams deal young pitching because they’re cheap small market teams and when said player is entering expensive arby years and the team is nowhere near competing, team cashes in for a haul of prospects.

That’s fair. I think the Sox thought they could replace what they had in Sale with Giolito. To be fair, seeing what Breslow/Bailey have done with this crop of pitching I really really would have liked to see what they may have been able to get out of a guy like Giolito

Fair, but who is saying they like this trade because it’s working out so far?

Did we not need one? we knew had Mayer on the way but all prospects are suspects until they become big leaguers as one poster would say. Also, we don't really have anything in the pipeline guaranteed to lockdown 2ND or really even looking that promising with Yorke falling from Grace. I have high hopes, but low expectations for Story at 2nd. Grissom could slide right into their plans, a young cost controlled 22 year old with 6 years of team control for one year of a pitcher who doesn't fit into your future plans during a year coming off of a last place finish and you don't have a real chance at winning a world series? I think you should make that trade every single time, even if Grissom is a complete dud, thats the game you play when you trade for young talent, some guys pan out some don't. I'm not concerned because of a slow start, I'll be worried if he sucks after 500 at bats.

so seven guys......spread out over how many years? there's 30 teams in baseball looking for pitching. Teams like to keep young pitching isn't analogous with teams keep all of their pitching.

If he hits as advertised I would love to see Grissom in a super utility role, the kind where he's getting 400 AB's a year.

If you could go pre Sale trade there was no one in here happy with Sale, and probably many salivating at the opportunity to offboard him. I don't think they're purposely being hypocritical, rather people want proven MLB talent. Grissom wasn't a name they recognized, and the fact that he got hurt and off to a slow start certaily didn't help his cause. Some of us also recognize that a 34 year old pitcher who had not been healthy for a significant period of time since he was in his 20's isnt' excatly a valuable asset. It's very easy to look at Sales performance now and critisize the trade, and we are the kings of that here on Sox talk. The hindsight is strong in here. It will be interesting to see how the narrative changes if Grissom turns into a big pick up. I suspect many will come around, and some won't, some will always be against the trade. The bar Grissom will have to pass is he will have to be a regular all-star. Fans will always project out the player they loses absolute 100% ceiling and expect that guranteed in return and they will discount years of control, downside, age, risk, performance etc etc etc. It's nice to see Sale healthy and performing well, I hope he can keep it up, he always seemed like a deserving guy to me. I hope Grissom works out well for us too, he's starting to show signs off life the last several games.

Pure conjecture but I wonder how accurate that height is. Those measurements aren’t measured often. He easily could have been 5’8 a year ago. I’d be interested to see if he clocks in at 5’10” 5’11” now. He certainly does not look 5’8”

Devers and Duran on point tonight

He’s 18 and already has exit velocities of 110 mph. That’s almost unheard of

After seeing video of Cespedes I’ve concluded he’s moving off of short, maybe not this year or even next but probably before he reaches the bigs. But he looks like he’s going to be a monster at the plate.

Do you really trust Story to stay healthy? Why not root for the kid to reach the potential everyone says he has. You can always trade away a logjam or move guys off position. I’d keep Grissom on the roster.

As much as I’d love to pencil Story in at 2nd next year can we really trust him? I mean if Sale stays healthy all year maybe there is hope.

Top RH bats on next years free agent market. Alex Bergman. Jose Altuve Ha-Seong Kim Pete Alonso Paul Goldschmidt Not sure if any of those guys are a fit. And two of them probably get resigned, Paul is just old.