moonslav59

We are talking about the restraints Bloom had in the 3 years with the Sox, and Price's contract was part of that. No longer, is true- same with JD and Nate. The Sale deal is the only one left. DD had his HRams and Pablos, so it's not totally unbalanced, but the budget cut from 2019 to 2020 was massive, and we have yet to come close to that $236M of 2019.

No. I'm pointing out a case where the GM has nothing to do with wins and losses. I said nothing about them being compared to the Sox.

No doubt. There is no argument, if you only look at wins and losses. If you look at the farm he inherited and left and the b udget he had vs Bloom, it's night and day times two. Do you really think DD wins us a ring without trading prospects for Sale, Kimbrel, and others? Bloom could get us more wins by doing that, too, but that's not the plan. That's just half of it. Now, forget about inflation: these are the opening day budgets. DD 184M 197M 234M 236M Bloom 73M (pro-rated for covid) 180M 206M Throw away 2020 and DD's 2019 budget was cut from $236M to $180M. That's $56M. Tell me how DD builds a winner by cutting payroll and notv trading top prospects.

DD has very little experience finding under the radar players. He needs to spend to build a good team. Look at all the payroll cut for the 2020 team after the 2019 team already showed a very steep decline. What could any GM do to create a winning team? I'm not bashing DD. I'm saying you guys expect miracles with no farm infusion or winter spending budgets of any significance. This year's opening day payroll is still $30M below 2019's, and Sale, Nate and JD were still part of the 2022 team without giving anything like the 2018 team.

Yes, most certainly, when evaluating a GM under the circumstances Bloom has been under, looking at only the W-L records is extremely narrow. That's not saying wins and losses are meaningless. Not at all. Yes, narrow as narrow can be when anyone uses just one criteria. How much narrower can it get?

Of course, but is it the Gm's fault the Pirates suck? Of course, not.

C McGuire/Wong 1B Casas 2B Story SS Mayer 3B Devers LF Yorke CF Rafaela RF Dugo DH Kavadas SP Bello SP Matta SP Walter SP TWard RP Whitlock RP Houck RP Kelly/German

Tell me how DD would have brought us to the WS with the farm and budget Bloom had. We are not bashing DD. No GM could have done it.

The word "would was fine," but so would the words "should have" (even if allowed to.)

Baseball is not horse racing or a lottery ticket. It's complex, and oversimplifying everything to wins and losses is a very narrow view. Could DD have won a ring with the Sox with massive budget cuts to the 2019 team and just $40M to spend in 2020 and 2021 and just Houck as help from the farm? You know that answer, but you cling to W-L records as all there is to a GM's report card.

Damn! I hate to admit that looks pretty good!

Between the injuries and some declining vet numbers, yes it would be over 13 of the 26 top Sox players.

Yes, I acknowledged the injuries of 2022 season were a major factor- maybe even more than the poor farm and tight budget that loosened up in March with the Story signing. I was talking about 2019-2022, but your point about 2022 is spot on.

Last would could be "should." Also, no Mookie trade- no Price savings either.

Well said. The two biggest areas a GM can make a difference, especially when trying to rebuild is with the farm and by using new money (or the winter spending budget) to add talent. Trades entail giving something up to get something. They can help but usually are about break even actions. Between Devers and Bello/Casas, we saw Houck, Dalbec and Duran That's about it. On the budget, we traded Betts and Price and not only did not replace their 2020 dollar amount, we cut further. We also did not replace Porcello's money. We had added about $40M AAV to spend for 2021 but it was still in deficit from 2019. This past winter, we looked to be spending close to $40M AAV, again, until the mid March Story signing. It baffles my mind that some can see these facts and still think a GM should have been able to produce a ring-contending team, by now. I admit, 2021 fooled me into thinking maybe miracles can come true, but the reality is, this rebuild should always have been viewed as a 3-5 year task. You can count 2019 as year one, but no real rebuilding happened, so I'm going with mid 2020, when Bloom made some deadline deals. That was about 2 1/2 seasons ago. I'm thrilled to see Casas and Bello looking so promising and a list of 10-12 prospects who could or should be ready to be called up in 2023 or who were already called up in 2022. I'm not expecting Fred Lynn rookie seasons, but I'm liking the trend I see going forward. Bello- just became a graduated prospect 2. Casas- starting 1Bman? 4. Rafaela (late '23) 6. Mata (mid '23) 8. Walter (mid) 11. Wong- back-up catcher? 12. Murphy (mid) 14. EValdez (mid) 23. Seabold- long relief? 24. Downs (mid) 27. German (mid) 29. Kelly 32, RHern (mid?) 36. Bazardo If you count Bello, we're looking at 9 of our top 15 prospects looking for ML time in 2023 15 of out top 37, too. (Crawford, Wink & Duran also graduated in 2022.) I'm optimistic about our future. The next 2 years should tell us a lot.

It's hard to know. Certainly other deals would have been made with any GM. Other signings based on a different make-up of who was in our system. I'd say... Moncada would have made the team- most likely as a starter at 2B. We did end up having to trade for Kinsler in 2018. Kopech has been good enough to keep on the 40 and does have a 3.53 ERA in 189 IP from 2021-2022. Do you not think that is good enough to make our rotation of '21-'22? Beeks (2 months of Nate) has a 3.85 ERA w TBR in 4 seasons (229 IP as RP'er) Margot has been a very good defensive OF'er and would have started a few years. His .consistent .695 OPS is better than JBJ's yo-yo .661 OPS since 2018. Buttrey (for Kinsler) had 2 pretty good years with LAA before imploding. (3.86 ERA in 89 IP '18-'19) The jury may still be out on Espinoza, Shaun Anderson, Gregory Santos, Stephen Nogosek Dubon is a decent defensive sub but no difference maker. Espinal- kinda the same. While Miley was no prospect, he did have 2-3 damn good seasons after we traded him away. 2018 for NYM (2.57 in 16 starts), 2019 for HOU (3.98 in 33 starts) and 3.33 for CIN & CHC from '21 to '22 in 36 GS. I think we'd have found room for him, those years but not in 2016 (5.37 in 30) and 2017 (5.61 in 32). He missed most of 2020. Travis Shaw (part of the Thorburg trade) had 2 very nice seasons with MIL '18-'19 .258 63 187 in 1193 PAs (.844 OPS) Again, I'm fine with what DD did, but there is no need to rewrite history by saying nobody he traded away amounted to anything of value or would be of little or no value, now.

They really want to get that monkey off their backs. They talk about it a lot, down here, and of course they think everyone is overblowing the whole situation.

His whole record speaks for itself, yes, even the fact that the only significant prospects, Houck, came up from HIS farm from mid 2017 to the end of 2022. Look at how many prospects have come up from the Astros farm since mid 2017. Too many to count.

I'd rather have had him than Cordero, Duran & JBJ, this year, Ref, next year and Marwin in 2021. Nobody is saying he'd have led us to a playoff berth. 2016-2022 Top UZR/150 (98 OF'er with 3,000 innings- 3 per 30 teams) 1. Betts 16.6 12. JBJ 7.2 18. Pillar 5.1 20. Margot 5.0 (He's about top 20%) DRS 1. Betts 127 9. JBJ 56 15. Margot 43 He'd have been a cheaper and better hitting JBJ in 2022.

I'm fine with the subject changing, and appreciate your question raised. It was a good one. I tried to answer it and add more to it than just the specific point you raised- is their value now worth more than what we got from the guys we obtained. I agreed the trades were good, so I'm not wanting do-overs or bashing the trades as bad, except maybe Carson Smith and Thornburg. My point was those good to great trades had great consequences from 2016-2018, but now we are suffering from the after effects of those trades. The team control years have long since expired on everyone. The Sale extension should not count against the trades. My added point was that we'd be, at least a little bit better with Kopech, Moncada, Margot, Espinal, Dubon and maybe someone I'm forgetting (Beeks?) I would not take back the trades, but I'm also not going to ignore the long term consequences, either- not that you are, but I get a sense you are minimizing it or not seeing it sas being as important as I think it is, which is fine.

They traded for Yordan Alvarez, who was a prospect for 3 years before being called up. They replaced Springer with Tucker from their farm (drafted in 2015). They replaced Correa with Pena from the farm (drafted in 2018). We could not replace Betts, Bogey and Devers from our farm, because it was so weak. That has been a major problem with this team. They have signed some big FA contracts- mostly on short term deals. They extended Bregman and Altuve. Amazingly, at one point this season, the Astros went to a 6 man rotation and all 6 were homegrown pitchers. Tell me again, how injuries are a bigger factor for our predicament than our lousy farm from mis 2017 to late 2020. GS 2022 31 Framber Valdez 28 Jose Urquidy 28 Luis Garcia 28 Verlander 25 Cristian Javier 12 Jake Odorizzi (traded away- mid season) 8 Lance McCullers Jr. 2 Hunter Brown

Probably not, but I didn't think this was about taking back the trades. I've already agreed the trades worked. IMO, this was about would any of the players we traded away be helpful now, and also would their value, now maybe outweigh or end up outweighing the pluses we got from Sale, Kimbrel, Pomeranz, Thornburg, Carson Smith, Nate and Pearce. (maybe I missed someone.) The second part was answering your question: What prospect did DD trade away that would have made a bigger difference today than who he was traded for at the time? I'd say maybe, Dubon outweighs Thornburg. Miley outweighs Smith. Margot does NOT outweigh what Kimbrel gave us, but i'd like to have had him after 2019 to today. Moncada and Kopech do not outweigh what Sale gave us, but they'd be helpful, now, which was my point about consequences of the trades.

Nope, but if we had margot and didn't do the JBJ trade, we'd have stayed under the tax line and been marginally better. I get that nobody we traded is a stud, but it's not just about trading away much of the farm. DD left Bloom with very few ML ready or even near ML ready prospects, and Bloom gets the blame for not being able to build a winner out of Houck in a 5 year stretch along with a mess of a budget. Again, I'm glad DD made the trades and we had a great 3 year run that ended with a magical season. That does not take make the consequences go away. It wasn't all DD's fault. He was handed a IFA penalty from the Ben days. He had low picks, because he won so damn much, but the fact is the farm he handed Bloom produced just Houck, Dalbec and Duran from Devers in 2017 to Bello in late 2022. That cannot be ignored or minimized. Sure, other factors have led to our situation, and not all are DD's fault, but the farm and budget were.

I'll take Dubon back for Thornburg. Can we trade Sale for Moncada and Kopech, now? (Yes, Sale helped us before by more than Moncada and Kopech will likely help the CWS, but if we are talking about now...) Kimbrel is long gone, but can we have Margot back?

Having Margot might have kept Bloom from trading for JBJ.