6 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Ah, it's "mojo" that's causing all these arm injuries across the league. Got it. 

You are a funny guy.   I was speaking of Sale and his way of pitching.  He has always been a guy who pitches with his hair on fire.  When he pitched for Chicago, he opened the game throwing with high energy and never chose to coast through a game.  It made him great but when he ran out of gas, you could tell based on his control.  When he came to Boston, he and Farrell got along great because Farrell understood pitching and didn't try to change his technique.  His 2017 season was awesome until he got a bit tired in August like he did in Chicago and Kluber made an incredible run to pass him for Cy Young.  In 2018, Sale was even better through the all-star break.  I thought he was an absolute lock for the Cy Young especially with Boston 10 games ahead of everyone.  He started the all-star game on July 17th with a 2.23 ERA and five straight starts with double digit strikeouts.  After the all-star game he had back-to-back 6 inning shutouts with 9 and 10 Ks and was peaking as a pitcher.  Entering August his ERA after the two post all-star game starts was 2.04.  

Enter Cora.  Knowing his August routine was to get dead arm and miss a couple of weeks he decides to proactively put Sale on the IL with a tight shoulder (minor comment Sale made after his bullpen).  So, Cora "the thinking man's manager (hahaha)" sits him from July 27th to Aug 12th.  Sale is seen rolling his eyes in the background at the press conference when Cora is talking about why he's going on the IL.  To me, it suggested it was all BS but Sale never contradicted the reason publicly, so it was accepted by most.  

On Aug 12th Sale pitched against BAL and was even better than before.  He faced 16 batters and struck out 12 and the one hit was a ground ball to Devers that he booted but for some unknown reason it was declared an error ruining his perfect game.  He pitched 5 innings and only 68 pitches but thanks to the Devers error being declared a hit Cora had an opportunity to pull him when he might have beat Clemens 20 K record, Sale was so sharp that day it was amazing.  During his next bullpen session Sale made the mistake of being honest and told the pitching coach his shoulder was feeling a bit stiff.  Immediately Cora put him on the IL again (they were still 10 games up or so) and this time Cora cautiously sat him twice as long, a full month.

The big difference was he had him take time off from throwing.  From the start of August to his Sept 11th start Sale had been on the IL 6 weeks for no reason other than Cora wanted him fresh for the playoffs.  He was completely inactive for 2 weeks!!!  Not the way to keep him fresh!!!  When he came back on the 11th of Sept Cora pitched him 1 inning and he struck out 2 and hit a batter.  Cautious?  Or just an idiot manager, you be the judge.  Sale's next start was on the 16th of Sept and he threw 3 innings faced 9 batters and struck out one.  Cautious again?  He wasn't building arm strength after 6 weeks off.  He was limiting his pitches to 26 and 42 in his two starts after his long layoff.  At this point, Sale's ERA was 1.92 for the season. 

His next start was the 21st at CLE.  The game started off fairly normal.  He had 4 Ks in the first two innings and coasted with three quick outs in the 3rd.  Then in the 4th he showed he's human, he started with a K then a HR to Josh Donaldson, then Yandy Diaz singled and CORA PULLED HIM at 73 pitches, and the reliever allowed Diaz to score so 3.1 IP, 2 ER, 7 Ks, 15 batters faced.  Should he have been pulled?  Nope.  His stuff was good enough the runner was highly unlikely to score, and he might have pitched threw the 5th for the win.  This was the first sign that his mojo was fading.  He hadn't given up a HR since June 1!!  Does this sound like a guy with an ARM PROBLEM as so many have suggested when he signed his contract?  Or just a numbskull manager?  His last regular season start was vs BAL the team he had 12 Ks in 5 innings 6 weeks earlier.  This time the game was in Boston and part of a doubleheader.  I remember thinking that day that the game reminded me of watching a car accident in slow motion.  Sale hit the leadoff man, struck out the 2 hitter, gave up a triple to the 3 hitter and hit the 4th hitter.  A sac fly drove in the second run and a fly out ended the inning.  Not very Sale-like.  The third was a ground out, fly out and strike out so it appeared the good Sale was back and on track.  In the 4th he gave up a hit to start the inning, a strike out, a grounder to Devers that he chose to throw to 2B but his judgement was bad as always and he was safe, and then 2 strike outs to make up for Devers mistake.  The 5th started with a pop-up not caught that went for a hit since the 2B never touched it, then a pop-out to Sale, a strikeout, then a double by Adam Jones driving in a run and Sale was pulled.  This was his worst outing since June 1 yet it wasn't terrible.  4.2 IP, 4 hits, 1 BB, 3 ER, 8 Ks in 92 pitches.

My belief is that Sale's "time off" was complete BS created by a clueless manager that cost Sale the Cy Young.  Taking 6 weeks off in August and September and then trying to restart the engine to perform at his previous peak level before the lay-off is Cora being Cora.  He has no skills at running a pitching staff.  MOJO gone and the fan base thinks something is wrong with SALE not CORA!!!  Sale's skills are right back where they were in 2018 in 2024 and now 2025.  Cora should have been nicknamed MEAT like in Bull Durham.  "Don't think, it hurts the team."  Now back that idiocy up against his 2019 faux pas inviting the SPs to come two weeks later than usual to ST and you have the Dennis the Menace of managers.

17 hours ago, Old Red said:

The 2020 team wouldn’t have been any better with any manager past, or present. 

To be fair, if they dumped Cora after his ST screw-up in 2019 then the avalanche of problems that followed probably wouldn't have happen.  We might still have Mookie and 2020 would have been a down year but not an embarrassing year and the new manager still would have had a championship foundation of players to manage, and Bloom wouldn't have torn down the 2018 team.  Cora is the lynch pin of the entire disaster.

9 hours ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

You are a funny guy.   I was speaking of Sale and his way of pitching.  He has always been a guy who pitches with his hair on fire.  When he pitched for Chicago, he opened the game throwing with high energy and never chose to coast through a game.  It made him great but when he ran out of gas, you could tell based on his control.  When he came to Boston, he and Farrell got along great because Farrell understood pitching and didn't try to change his technique.  His 2017 season was awesome until he got a bit tired in August like he did in Chicago and Kluber made an incredible run to pass him for Cy Young.  In 2018, Sale was even better through the all-star break.  I thought he was an absolute lock for the Cy Young especially with Boston 10 games ahead of everyone.  He started the all-star game on July 17th with a 2.23 ERA and five straight starts with double digit strikeouts.  After the all-star game he had back-to-back 6 inning shutouts with 9 and 10 Ks and was peaking as a pitcher.  Entering August his ERA after the two post all-star game starts was 2.04.  

Enter Cora.  Knowing his August routine was to get dead arm and miss a couple of weeks he decides to proactively put Sale on the IL with a tight shoulder (minor comment Sale made after his bullpen).  So, Cora "the thinking man's manager (hahaha)" sits him from July 27th to Aug 12th.  Sale is seen rolling his eyes in the background at the press conference when Cora is talking about why he's going on the IL.  To me, it suggested it was all BS but Sale never contradicted the reason publicly, so it was accepted by most.  

On Aug 12th Sale pitched against BAL and was even better than before.  He faced 16 batters and struck out 12 and the one hit was a ground ball to Devers that he booted but for some unknown reason it was declared an error ruining his perfect game.  He pitched 5 innings and only 68 pitches but thanks to the Devers error being declared a hit Cora had an opportunity to pull him when he might have beat Clemens 20 K record, Sale was so sharp that day it was amazing.  During his next bullpen session Sale made the mistake of being honest and told the pitching coach his shoulder was feeling a bit stiff.  Immediately Cora put him on the IL again (they were still 10 games up or so) and this time Cora cautiously sat him twice as long, a full month.

The big difference was he had him take time off from throwing.  From the start of August to his Sept 11th start Sale had been on the IL 6 weeks for no reason other than Cora wanted him fresh for the playoffs.  He was completely inactive for 2 weeks!!!  Not the way to keep him fresh!!!  When he came back on the 11th of Sept Cora pitched him 1 inning and he struck out 2 and hit a batter.  Cautious?  Or just an idiot manager, you be the judge.  Sale's next start was on the 16th of Sept and he threw 3 innings faced 9 batters and struck out one.  Cautious again?  He wasn't building arm strength after 6 weeks off.  He was limiting his pitches to 26 and 42 in his two starts after his long layoff.  At this point, Sale's ERA was 1.92 for the season. 

His next start was the 21st at CLE.  The game started off fairly normal.  He had 4 Ks in the first two innings and coasted with three quick outs in the 3rd.  Then in the 4th he showed he's human, he started with a K then a HR to Josh Donaldson, then Yandy Diaz singled and CORA PULLED HIM at 73 pitches, and the reliever allowed Diaz to score so 3.1 IP, 2 ER, 7 Ks, 15 batters faced.  Should he have been pulled?  Nope.  His stuff was good enough the runner was highly unlikely to score, and he might have pitched threw the 5th for the win.  This was the first sign that his mojo was fading.  He hadn't given up a HR since June 1!!  Does this sound like a guy with an ARM PROBLEM as so many have suggested when he signed his contract?  Or just a numbskull manager?  His last regular season start was vs BAL the team he had 12 Ks in 5 innings 6 weeks earlier.  This time the game was in Boston and part of a doubleheader.  I remember thinking that day that the game reminded me of watching a car accident in slow motion.  Sale hit the leadoff man, struck out the 2 hitter, gave up a triple to the 3 hitter and hit the 4th hitter.  A sac fly drove in the second run and a fly out ended the inning.  Not very Sale-like.  The third was a ground out, fly out and strike out so it appeared the good Sale was back and on track.  In the 4th he gave up a hit to start the inning, a strike out, a grounder to Devers that he chose to throw to 2B but his judgement was bad as always and he was safe, and then 2 strike outs to make up for Devers mistake.  The 5th started with a pop-up not caught that went for a hit since the 2B never touched it, then a pop-out to Sale, a strikeout, then a double by Adam Jones driving in a run and Sale was pulled.  This was his worst outing since June 1 yet it wasn't terrible.  4.2 IP, 4 hits, 1 BB, 3 ER, 8 Ks in 92 pitches.

My belief is that Sale's "time off" was complete BS created by a clueless manager that cost Sale the Cy Young.  Taking 6 weeks off in August and September and then trying to restart the engine to perform at his previous peak level before the lay-off is Cora being Cora.  He has no skills at running a pitching staff.  MOJO gone and the fan base thinks something is wrong with SALE not CORA!!!  Sale's skills are right back where they were in 2018 in 2024 and now 2025.  Cora should have been nicknamed MEAT like in Bull Durham.  "Don't think, it hurts the team."  Now back that idiocy up against his 2019 faux pas inviting the SPs to come two weeks later than usual to ST and you have the Dennis the Menace of managers.

 

People assume it's increase in velocity and spin that is the cause of injuries, which I think it is but it could also be too much stopping and starting. Just like a car is better when you run it and not let it sit and you drive it on the highway instead of in the city. 

58 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Do you mean that maybe with the pitching clock, there is less time between innings, and not enough refresh time for a pitcher's arm between innings?

The time between starts has remained unchanged since the 4 man rotation went out of style.

IP's and Pitch counts have gone down.

I know. IPs and PCs have gone down yet injuries are up. I was commenting on how Coras and modern baseballs philosophy of resting pitchers, and an overuse of the BP can be detrimental in the same way not regularly running your car and not running it on the highway can be bad for it. Running it on the highway is like a starting pitcher. It takes awhile to get warmed up and then it really gets going. All the relief pitching is like stop and start driving, not getting warmed up, going full speed from being cold over and over.

6 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

No, Henry must be the lynch pin since he's the one who hired Cora purely as a diversity play and insists on keeping him in the job.

Excellent point.

4 hours ago, notin said:

Mookie was going to be a free agent after 2020 anyway.  I wouldn’t pin that on Cora.  Mookie should have been extended long before 2019 even started…

If you recognize DD's technique and schedule for extending players he believes to get the fairest contract amount you want to do the new contract during Spring Training a year before the player becomes a free agent.  That's why Sale was ST in 2019 and Mookie was ST in 2020.  He was on schedule and took care of Mookie in arbitration by raising his money nearly $10 Million a year.  

You may be right that he should have done it earlier, but his raises were very carefully laid out to smooth cashflow and observe the most stats before offering a number.  So they made sense.

MLB does not want to consider the pitch clock as a factor in the rash of pitching injuries because the pitch clock is their innovation. Many fans do not want to consider the pitch clock as a factor in the injuries because they like the shorter, faster paced games. The blame is usually put on the increased velocity . But it seems to me that the increased velocity would be all the more reason to not always be in a hurry to beat the ticking clock. Sometimes you need a little breather between reps. 

4 hours ago, jdc69 said:

People assume it's increase in velocity and spin that is the cause of injuries, which I think it is but it could also be too much stopping and starting. Just like a car is better when you run it and not let it sit and you drive it on the highway instead of in the city. 

Excellent point.  Lots goes into pitching issues.  My dad was a pitcher, I was a pitcher and my sons were pitchers.  Arm problems can happen from starting and stopping as you suggested, from playing other positions like 3B or 2B where the arm motion is not like a pitching motion and from overuse.  I missed a summer of pitching after I threw 176 pitches and enflamed my ulnar nerve.  That was back before people counted pitches and I was considered to have a rubber arm playing SS and pitching while playing for two teams.

The Sox had Mookie under contract through 2020 . Time enough to offer an extension. After that, they still could have signed him as a free agent, as the Yankees did with Judge. The fact is, John Henry did not want to spring for the money. 

1 minute ago, notin said:

Plenty of pitchers have seen their routine unchanged by the pitch clock and gotten injured anyway…

I think you have made up your mind that you don't want the pitch clock to be a contributing factor to the pitching injuries that we are seeing on a daily basis. And there is nothing that will change your mind.  

6 minutes ago, dgalehouse said:

MLB does not want to consider the pitch clock as a factor in the rash of pitching injuries because the pitch clock is their innovation. Many fans do not want to consider the pitch clock as a factor in the injuries because they like the shorter, faster paced games. The blame is usually put on the increased velocity . But it seems to me that the increased velocity would be all the more reason to not always be in a hurry to beat the ticking clock. Sometimes you need a little breather between reps. 

I think if you dig into the training techniques that allow a pitcher to jump 3 to 5 mph in a short time period you will find the source of the stress on the elbow.  Without the money incentive, parents and kids would not be using the modern techniques for increasing velocity.  That's not going to happen so expect the injuries to keep expanding until the MLB puts together a guideline that outlines what will hurt your elbow or not hurt your elbow when it comes to training techniques for increasing velocity. 

One MLB player that I coached when he was younger had TJ surgery in High School because his father was an ex-player and got him hooked up with a program that did aggressive velocity training.  He jumped from the upper 80s to mid 90s in High School.  The player made it to the pros as a reliever and has had a second TJ surgery before 30.  He's made over $6Million in his career so far so was it worth it?  The MLB needs to focus on safer training techniques for youth baseball and beyond.