Story has surgery

[mvp 78]

I know that, but I was just wondering what position Story had planned on playing during the baseball classic.

 

DH.

[moonslav59]

What grade would you give Bloom for the off-season?

 

I'd say a D, but a lot depends on sticking his neck out on Yoshida.

 

The Bogey situation seems hard to grade, because I don't know what it would have taken to get Bogeyto sign this "off-season."

 

The main reason for the low grade is that we paid a large percent of our winter budget on a DH/LF'er (Yoshida) and DH/3B/1B (Turner), all positions, I had way down on my top needs list.

 

My list was:

 

1. SS

2. solid #1 or 2 SP

3. Closer (got one in Jansen)

4. solid RP'er (got one in Martin)

5. RF (I don't like forcing Dugo to RF after acquiring Yoshida)

6. SP #3/4 type (moved Whitlock here)

7. DH (Turner)

8. Catcher

 

If we add Andrus or trade for a SS, I might change the grade to a C or C-. if we add Andrus and Fulmer, maybe a C+.

[moonslav59]

I never said Bloom was responsible for the Sale extension, and that’s nothing, but a fabrication from your imagination, and interpretation, and once again that proves my point about you always being wrong.

 

It's a fact. You said it.

[Old Red]

It's a fact. You said it.

 

100% wrong, and you know it. Of course your interpretation, which you have gotten wrong many times over makes you think that way, but that is wrong, and doesn’t make it so.

[moonslav59]

100% wrong, and you know it. Of course your interpretation, which you have gotten wrong many times over makes you think that way, but that is wrong, and doesn’t make it so.

 

Words have specific meaning- something you never understand.

 

You said it. Denying it over and over changes nothing. It would have been so simple to just say, "I misspoke," or "I meant to say ____," but you can never do even a simple correction to an obvious false statement.

[Old Red]

Words have specific meaning- something you never understand.

 

You said it. Denying it over and over changes nothing. It would have been so simple to just say, "I misspoke," or "I meant to say ____," but you can never do even a simple correction to an obvious false statement.

I don’t need to say I misspoke, because I know what I was saying. You on the other hand make you own interpretation to fit your narrative. Why would I possibly say that Bloom was responsible for extending Sale when I know DD did it, and was against it the second I heard about. You interpreting other wise makes no sense whatsoever except to have something to cry about.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Old Red

[notin]

100% wrong, and you know it. Of course your interpretation, which you have gotten wrong many times over makes you think that way, but that is wrong, and doesn’t make it so.

 

Awww someone doesn’t like it when he gets misquoted or misinterpreted?

 

Take it like a man!!!

[Old Red]

Awww someone doesn’t like it when he gets misquoted or misinterpreted?

 

Take it like a man!!!

 

Anybody would if something is interpreted wrong, and I have a long list. Wouldn’t you?

[moonslav59]

Try to place yourself out of the realm of placing blame or assigning fault. Look at the state of the Red Sox team- top to bottom and all aspects, including the farm and budget after 2019.

 

I'll ask you make 2 assumptions:

 

1. The budget numbers were more or less set in stone.

2. The mandate to build up the farm, included the idea that no top prospects would be traded to improve the 26 man roster.

 

Even if you disagree with these assumptions, I ask you still try to follow along and to try and envision what a realistic expectation would be for the team's win-loss results and overall feeling of direction and chances for success. Also, what would be a realistic time frame for significant improvement to become visible and success to be expected and not a surprise, like maybe 2021 was (MAYBE.)

 

First, the roster and budget. The opening day 2019 roster is listed at $236M and fell to $228M by season's end. The Tax line was $243M.6. I'll go by the tax line salary amounts. Here is what was carried over after DD left (in $ millions):

31 Price x 3 years

22 JD x 3 yrs

17 Nate x 3

13.8 Pedey x 2

25.6 Sale x 5 (extension kicked in in 2020)

20 Bogaerts x 3 (opt out occured)

8.6 JBJ (with 1 more arb left)

6.5 Moreland (was re-signed by Bloom)

4.5 Vaz x 2 with option for 2022

4.3 ERod (with 2 more arbs)

2.5 Leon (1 arb left)

1.6 Barnes (2 arbs left- was extended by Bloom, later)

1.3 Hembree (2 arbs)

1.2 Workman (1 arb)

Gorkys Hernandez, Marco Hernandez, Juan Centero (arbs remaining)

entering 1st arb: Beni, Ryan Weber, Marco Hernandez & Josh A Smith

pre-arb: Devers, J Taylor, Brasier, B Johnson, H Velazquez, S Travis, C Brewer, M Chavis, DHern, B Poyner, MShawaryn, Walden and a few others.

 

Lost and essentially not replaced:

31.0 Price

22.6 Porcello

20.0 Betts (would have been $29M arb in 2020)

8.0 Cashner

6.3 Pearce

 

From 2019 to 2020, the budget was slashed $60M.

$20M no Betts

$16M half-Price

$20M Porcello

$6M Pearce

 

The pre-2020 Winter spending budget, not counting arb raises to JBJ, ERod, Beni, Barnes...: under $20M total, not counting what was slashed

6.5 Perez

4.3 Pillar (traded at deadline)

3.0 Moreland (re-signed/ traded at deadline)

2.9 Pereza (yuck!)

1.5 Lucroy

850K Osich (traded at deadline)

Min wage: Covey, McHugh, Springs, Brice...

 

Betts & half-Price are traded for what seems to be about the best any team offered with some debate about this.

Then, Sale, Pedey and ERod miss the whole 2020 season. Only the diehard Bloom-bashers think the 2020 season is his fault.

 

2021 Winter spending budget: about $40M total, counting the Ottavino trade, but not counting "saving" $3M on the Beni trade and arb raises.

10.0 Richards

8.9 Ottavino trade

7.0 Kike x 2

5.0 Perez II

3.1 Renfroe

3.0 Marwin

2.1 Andriese

1.5 Sawamura x 2

Again, Sale misses just about the entire season. We miss going to the WS by 2 games.

 

2022 Winter spending budget, not counting arb raises or the $5M raise for the Barnes extension and Vaz option) and the JBJ for Renfroe budget hit: about $40M

23.3 Story

7.0 Wacha

6.0 Paxton

5.0 Hill

4.0 Diekman x 2 (traded at deadline)

3.0 Strahm

2.3 Robles

 

No Sale and Paxton all year. We lose Kike and Story for parts of the year, and 4 out of the 5 remaining SP'ers go on the IL at some point, often 2-3 at the same time. Most of the returning vets see declines in production- some by a lot.

 

The Farm Infusions (or lack of it):

 

Since the call-up of Devers in the summer of 2017, so this started long before DD left, the most notable prospect additions until Casas and Bello in late 2022 were:

Houck

Dalbec

Duran

Arauz

Chavis

Downs

DHern

Crawford

 

What sort of impact on expectations should just these farm names have?

 

No doubt, many of the minor and 2ns tier additions Bloom made did not work out, but what should have been expected, when most players signed were for $1-7M and 1 year? That's not to say, they weren't mistakes, or at least some of them, but some worked out well, too:

Pivetta

Renfroe 2021

Kike 2021 (not 2022)

Whitlock

Schreiber

Refsnyder

Wacha

Hill

Strahm

 

How much has the farm been built up, even if just on paper? Yes, it's speculation, and some of DD's additions are proving to be better than expected, or assumed to be looking good, going forwards, but realistically, what should or could have been expected after 2019?

After 2020?

After 2021?

 

I'm thinking pretty close to what we got. High in '21- low in '22 with the farm looking better and this winter's moves looking pretty sketchy.

[moonslav59]

I don’t need to say I misspoke, because I know what I was saying. You on the other hand make you own interpretation to fit your narrative. Why would I possibly say that Bloom was responsible for extending Sale when I know DD did it, and was against it the second I heard about. You interpreting other wise makes no sense whatsoever except to have something to cry about.

 

It wasn't a misinterpretation. You said it. When we pointed out you said it, you denied your words meant what they said, and not that you didn't mean it the way you wrote it.

 

I'm far from crying about it. It actually makes me laugh you can't just say, "I meant to say ____." That's how full of yourself you are, or insecure: who knows why?

[moonslav59]

Awww someone doesn’t like it when he gets misquoted or misinterpreted?

 

Take it like a man!!!

 

The thing is, he wasn't misquoted, and what he said was not misinterpreted. We were talking about Bloom extensions, and he listed Sale along with others. His words had clear meaning, but it seemed he did not mean it that way, but instead of saying that, he claimed his words did not mean what they clearly meant (likely, not what he meant, but to him there is no difference.)

[Old Red]

It wasn't a misinterpretation. You said it. When we pointed out you said it, you denied your words meant what they said, and not that you didn't mean it the way you wrote it.

 

I'm far from crying about it. It actually makes me laugh you can't just say, "I meant to say ____." That's how full of yourself you are, or insecure: who knows why?

You show where I exactly said it. Emphasize exactly said it.

[Old Red]

Try to place yourself out of the realm of placing blame or assigning fault. Look at the state of the Red Sox team- top to bottom and all aspects, including the farm and budget after 2019.

 

I'll ask you make 2 assumptions:

 

1. The budget numbers were more or less set in stone.

2. The mandate to build up the farm, included the idea that no top prospects would be traded to improve the 26 man roster.

 

Even if you disagree with these assumptions, I ask you still try to follow along and to try and envision what a realistic expectation would be for the team's win-loss results and overall feeling of direction and chances for success. Also, what would be a realistic time frame for significant improvement to become visible and success to be expected and not a surprise, like maybe 2021 was (MAYBE.)

 

First, the roster and budget. The opening day 2019 roster is listed at $236M and fell to $228M by season's end. The Tax line was $243M.6. I'll go by the tax line salary amounts. Here is what was carried over after DD left (in $ millions):

31 Price x 3 years

22 JD x 3 yrs

17 Nate x 3

13.8 Pedey x 2

25.6 Sale x 5 (extension kicked in in 2020)

20 Bogaerts x 3 (opt out occured)

8.6 JBJ (with 1 more arb left)

6.5 Moreland (was re-signed by Bloom)

4.5 Vaz x 2 with option for 2022

4.3 ERod (with 2 more arbs)

2.5 Leon (1 arb left)

1.6 Barnes (2 arbs left- was extended by Bloom, later)

1.3 Hembree (2 arbs)

1.2 Workman (1 arb)

Gorkys Hernandez, Marco Hernandez, Juan Centero (arbs remaining)

entering 1st arb: Beni, Ryan Weber, Marco Hernandez & Josh A Smith

pre-arb: Devers, J Taylor, Brasier, B Johnson, H Velazquez, S Travis, C Brewer, M Chavis, DHern, B Poyner, MShawaryn, Walden and a few others.

 

Lost and essentially not replaced:

31.0 Price

22.6 Porcello

20.0 Betts (would have been $29M arb in 2020)

8.0 Cashner

6.3 Pearce

 

From 2019 to 2020, the budget was slashed $60M.

$20M no Betts

$16M half-Price

$20M Porcello

$6M Pearce

 

The pre-2020 Winter spending budget, not counting arb raises to JBJ, ERod, Beni, Barnes...: under $20M total, not counting what was slashed

6.5 Perez

4.3 Pillar (traded at deadline)

3.0 Moreland (re-signed/ traded at deadline)

2.9 Pereza (yuck!)

1.5 Lucroy

850K Osich (traded at deadline)

Min wage: Covey, McHugh, Springs, Brice...

 

Betts & half-Price are traded for what seems to be about the best any team offered with some debate about this.

Then, Sale, Pedey and ERod miss the whole 2020 season. Only the diehard Bloom-bashers think the 2020 season is his fault.

 

2021 Winter spending budget: about $40M total, counting the Ottavino trade, but not counting "saving" $3M on the Beni trade and arb raises.

10.0 Richards

8.9 Ottavino trade

7.0 Kike x 2

5.0 Perez II

3.1 Renfroe

3.0 Marwin

2.1 Andriese

1.5 Sawamura x 2

Again, Sale misses just about the entire season. We miss going to the WS by 2 games.

 

2022 Winter spending budget, not counting arb raises or the $5M raise for the Barnes extension and Vaz option) and the JBJ for Renfroe budget hit: about $40M

23.3 Story

7.0 Wacha

6.0 Paxton

5.0 Hill

4.0 Diekman x 2 (traded at deadline)

3.0 Strahm

2.3 Robles

 

No Sale and Paxton all year. We lose Kike and Story for parts of the year, and 4 out of the 5 remaining SP'ers go on the IL at some point, often 2-3 at the same time. Most of the returning vets see declines in production- some by a lot.

 

The Farm Infusions (or lack of it):

 

Since the call-up of Devers in the summer of 2017, so this started long before DD left, the most notable prospect additions until Casas and Bello in late 2022 were:

Houck

Dalbec

Duran

Arauz

Chavis

Downs

DHern

Crawford

 

What sort of impact on expectations should just these farm names have?

 

No doubt, many of the minor and 2ns tier additions Bloom made did not work out, but what should have been expected, when most players signed were for $1-7M and 1 year? That's not to say, they weren't mistakes, or at least some of them, but some worked out well, too:

Pivetta

Renfroe 2021

Kike 2021 (not 2022)

Whitlock

Schreiber

Refsnyder

Wacha

Hill

Strahm

 

How much has the farm been built up, even if just on paper? Yes, it's speculation, and some of DD's additions are proving to be better than expected, or assumed to be looking good, going forwards, but realistically, what should or could have been expected after 2019?

After 2020?

After 2021?

 

I'm thinking pretty close to what we got. High in '21- low in '22 with the farm looking better and this winter's moves looking pretty sketchy.

 

Once again quantity does not match quality.

[moonslav59]

You show where I exactly said it. Emphasize exactly said it.

 

We showed you countless times. If you forgot, you go look.

 

I know what you wrote. I know what words mean.

 

We were talking about Bloom extensions, and you listed 3-4 names, including Sale. You obviously knew he was a DD extension, and maybe was trying to point out our longer history of not-so-good extensions, but you listed Sale with other Bloom extensions. We pointed it out, then, and it wasn't just me, but you denied your words meant what they said then. You'll do the same, now, even if I find it.

 

It's like when you said "You hate Bogey and Bogey's defense, too." you claimed that does not mean I hate Bogey. It would have been so easy to simply say, "that's not what I meant," and I actually believe you did not mean to say that, but what you wrote means I hate Bogey, whether you want it to mean that or not.

 

You just can't do it. Who knows why?

[moonslav59]

Once again quantity does not match quality.

 

Too much for you to read?

 

You expected greatness or even mediocrity from these circumstances?

 

Obviously you did, but you can't show any basis for it.

[Old Red]

We showed you countless times. If you forgot, you go look.

 

I know what you wrote. I know what words mean.

 

We were talking about Bloom extensions, and you listed 3-4 names, including Sale. You obviously knew he was a DD extension, and maybe was trying to point out our longer history of not-so-good extensions, but you listed Sale with other Bloom extensions. We pointed it out, then, and it wasn't just me, but you denied your words meant what they said then. You'll do the same, now, even if I find it.

 

It's like when you said "You hate Bogey and Bogey's defense, too." you claimed that does not mean I hate Bogey. It would have been so easy to simply say, "that's not what I meant," and I actually believe you did not mean to say that, but what you wrote means I hate Bogey, whether you want it to mean that or not.

 

You just can't do it. Who knows why?

And like I said you still can’t produce where I exactly said Bloom was responsible for extending Sale, and for you to mention Notin as a co conspiracy theorists means nothing at all, and I only thought you only had a brown nose, but I was Way off, because you’ve gone all in head first, and there is no return, or hope for any recovery.

[Old Red]

Too much for you to read?

 

You expected greatness or even mediocrity from these circumstances?

 

Obviously you did, but you can't show any basis for it.

No interest to read a column that is just rehashing old excuses, and theories.

[moonslav59]

And like I said you still can’t produce where I exactly said Bloom was responsible for extending Sale, and for you to mention Notin as a co conspiracy theorists means nothing at all, and I only thought you only had a brown nose, but I was Way off, because you’ve gone all in head first, and there is no return, or hope for any recovery.

 

I did not mention notin- yet another lie and misrepresentation of my words, but somehow you will now say "I never said you said you mentioned Notin."

[Old Red]

I did not mention notin- yet another lie and misrepresentation of my words, but somehow you will now say "I never said you said you mentioned Notin."

 

Once again over analyzing, and I did not say you mentioned Notin even though you did, but not by name.I did, because I knew he did, which is the old 2 wrongs don’t make a right, and in this case it didn’t. Two pees in a pod.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

Once again over analyzing, and I did not say you mentioned Notin even though you did, but not by name.I did, because I knew he did, which is the old 2 wrongs don’t make a right, and in this case it didn’t. Two pees in a pod.

 

You crack me up!

 

You did not write this?

 

...and for you to mention Notin...

[moonslav59]

I might as well just claim I never said Red "hated Cora." It would make winning debates so much easier to just deny what was clearly written.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Sox are gonna be remarkably bad this year. Bottom feeding team that’ll get guys picked off the carcass at mid year .

[moonslav59]

The Sox are gonna be remarkably bad this year. Bottom feeding team that’ll get guys picked off the carcass at mid year .

 

I love hearing this from the guy who is like Oh for the last 5 Sox season projections.

[Old Red]

You crack me up!

 

You did not write this?

 

...and for you to mention Notin...

 

I’ve never seen anyone who sits there like you do, and analyzes every single letter of every single word, and tries to come up with what you think the meaning might be, and so you can say gotcha. To you there have been lots of those moments, but in reality there hasn’t been any, and it doesn’t matter one iota that you have been wrong so many times. Sad, but true.

[moonslav59]

I’ve never seen anyone who sits there like you do, and analyzes every single letter of every single word, and tries to come up with what you think the meaning might be, and so you can say gotcha. To you there have been lots of those moments, but in reality there hasn’t been any, and it doesn’t matter one iota that you have been wrong so many times. Sad, but true.

 

So, exactly as I predicted. You say "for you to mention notin..." then deny you said "for you to mention notin..."

 

It's not analyzing or interpreting. It's what words mean. It's not what I think it means. It what it really means.

 

To think you can't even admit a simple thing like this, speaks volumes, and yes, sad but true. We are on that.

[mvp 78]

The Sox are gonna be remarkably bad this year. Bottom feeding team that’ll get guys picked off the carcass at mid year .

 

They didn’t let it happen when it made sense last year.

[moonslav59]

They didn’t let it happen when it made sense last year.

 

I guess we just need to really suck to have fire sale.

[notin]

Anybody would if something is interpreted wrong, and I have a long list. Wouldn’t you?

 

I gave up reminding that one guy who constantly does that to me…

[Old Red]

So, exactly as I predicted. You say "for you to mention notin..." then deny you said "for you to mention notin..."

 

It's not analyzing or interpreting. It's what words mean. It's not what I think it means. It what it really means.

 

To think you can't even admit a simple thing like this, speaks volumes, and yes, sad but true. We are on that.

 

Your predictions are always wrong, so you can sit there, and do all the analyzing, and be wrong all the times you want too, and say I gotcha, but in the big scheme of things they mean nothing, but to you. Once again a curse, but nowhere a gift.

[Old Red]

I gave up reminding that one guy who constantly does that to me…

 

Classic that you don’t like the favor returned.