9/26 NYY (Montgomery) @ BOS (ERod)

[jung]

Very thoughtful reply. Sorry for not being more clear.

 

I'd still like to see the league wide numbers for SP'er the first, second, third and fourth time through line-ups in the 60's, 70's 80's and 90's- basically before teams started noticing drop offs and made radical changes to how pens were used and starters were babied.

 

Also, did teams encourage starters to not "pace themselves" but to just "get us to the 7th, then later the 6th, and now just to or into the 5th?

 

Pitchers were not superhuman in that era, well maybe Ryan was superhuman, maybe Koufax. However pitchers relied on different assets in the later innings than they relied on in the early innings. I would not define what Starters did as pacing as much as it was strategizing to get to the later innings. Seems to me that we have few pitchers now that can set the stage to rely on different assets in the later innings than they showed in the early innings.

 

Game analysts "talk" about a pitcher setting a batter up for the later innings but I see very little of it now. They are by and large out of the game before the later innings arrive. So Starters had a strategy for how to complete a game, how to have something left for the later innings and what that something would look like. Remember also that there was little of these 8-10 pitch AB's as well.

 

Hitters would come to the plate in the later innings pretty much in a different place than they were in early in the game against a good starter. They had been knocked down, challenged and lost and fooled in just about that order. By the later AB's hitters no longer even had half the plate they started with. Maybe they were down to able to control effectively a quarter of the plate on the inner black AND at that point the pitcher was showing his full repertoire of pitches. Hitters were often left approaching the AB like the count was 0-2 as they stepped into the batters box.....well except for Teddy Baseball who had his process and those ridiculous, other worldly splits against RH pitchers. Nobody moved Ted off his process at the plate nor changed his swing which was at the heart of his process.

 

The simple fact of pitching and hitting is that if a pitcher shows batters every damn thing including his underwear early in a game, it is very unlikely that his repertoire will be effective at the end of the game or even past the second time through the order.

 

But Starters were always aiming to compete a game they started. That was their intent. You cannot tell me that today's starters intend completing a game start. They are not encouraged to and it appears not to keep them from earning enormous incomes.

 

As for Ryan his body looked nothing like it did once he truly matured just as a man, never mind as a pitcher. The percentage of complete games he pitched rose significantly at that point. You will see the same thing repeated time and time again with good starters of that era. They come into MLB at 20 years old. In the main they know what they want to do but their bodies had not matured enough to do it. Then their bodies would catch up to their brains and they became capable of not just pitching complete games but dominating over complete games.

 

Still and all I suspect that pitching has changed because in the main the talent level has changed in relation to the number of franchises. There simply are not enough pitchers to go around that can even manage strategizing to complete a game because they don't have either the head for it, the body for it and are not encouraged either by coaches or the financial aspect of baseball to do it. Thus the entire pro game IMO has adapted much to its detriment to the number of teams.....over expansion.

 

My perennial feeling is that really really great baseball players are alien kings from other planets and good baseball players are just not from this world either. How many aliens from other planets do we think are walking amongst us and how many of them decide to play baseball? It is that kind of game....as in hard as s*** to play well.

[notin]

Pitchers were not superhuman in that era, well maybe Ryan was superhuman, maybe Koufax. However pitchers relied on different assets in the later innings than they relied on in the early innings. I would not define what Starters did as pacing as much as it was strategizing to get to the later innings. Seems to me that we have few pitchers now that can set the stage to rely on different assets in the later innings than they showed in the early innings.

 

Game analysts "talk" about a pitcher setting a batter up for the later innings but I see very little of it now. They are by and large out of the game before the later innings arrive. So Starters had a strategy for how to complete a game, how to have something left for the later innings and what that something would look like. Remember also that there was little of these 8-10 pitch AB's as well.

 

Hitters would come to the plate in the later innings pretty much in a different place than they were in early in the game against a good starter. They had been knocked down, challenged and lost and fooled in just about that order. By the later AB's hitters no longer even had half the plate they started with. Maybe they were down to able to control effectively a quarter of the plate on the inner black AND at that point the pitcher was showing his full repertoire of pitches. Hitters were often left approaching the AB like the count was 0-2 as they stepped into the batters box.....well except for Teddy Baseball who had his process and those ridiculous, other worldly splits against RH pitchers. Nobody moved Ted off his process at the plate nor changed his swing which was at the heart of his process.

 

The simple fact of pitching and hitting is that if a pitcher shows batters every damn thing including his underwear early in a game, it is very unlikely that his repertoire will be effective at the end of the game or even past the second time through the order.

 

But Starters were always aiming to compete a game they started. That was their intent. You cannot tell me that today's starters intend completing a game start. They are not encouraged to and it appears not to keep them from earning enormous incomes.

 

As for Ryan his body looked nothing like it did once he truly matured just as a man, never mind as a pitcher. The percentage of complete games he pitched rose significantly at that point. You will see the same thing repeated time and time again with good starters of that era. They come into MLB at 20 years old. In the main they know what they want to do but their bodies had not matured enough to do it. Then their bodies would catch up to their brains and they became capable of not just pitching complete games but dominating over complete games.

 

Still and all I suspect that pitching has changed because in the main the talent level has changed in relation to the number of franchises. There simply are not enough pitchers to go around that can even manage strategizing to complete a game because they don't have either the head for it, the body for it and are not encouraged either by coaches or the financial aspect of baseball to do it. Thus the entire pro game IMO has adapted much to its detriment to the number of teams.....over expansion.

 

My perennial feeling is that really really great baseball players are alien kings from other planets and good baseball players are just not from this world either. How many aliens from other planets do we think are walking amongst us and how many of them decide to play baseball? It is that kind of game....as in hard as s*** to play well.

 

 

Nowadays pitchers are investments, and you don’t want your 7 year $210 mill investment risking damage to his arm by trying to squeeze and extra 2-3 innings out of him per start. Especially since you have 6-8 pitchers already on the payroll capable of handling those extra innings.

 

I don’t see the big deal. So pitchers don’t play go 7-8 innings? So what? Quarterbacks don’t play in the secondary any more, either, but I never saw anyone hold that against Tom Brady…

[notin]

It's all in how one defines MVP. I've stated my case and I'm pretty sure my solution will not be adopted by MLB.

 

 

Or the NFL. Or the NBA. Or the Greater Chicago Men’s 16 Inch Softball Beer Guzzling League…

[notin]

Sure, but I think Vlad is bit above those two. He really had a transcendent season.

 

… at the plate. He’s a one dimensional player. But as the saying goes, it’s one heckuva dimension.

 

Of course, he’s also 22. If he loses this year, he will have 7 or 8 more chances to win a few awards…

[jung]

Nowadays pitchers are investments, and you don’t want your 7 year $210 mill investment risking damage to his arm by trying to squeeze and extra 2-3 innings out of him per start. Especially since you have 6-8 pitchers already on the payroll capable of handling those extra innings.

 

I don’t see the big deal. So pitchers don’t play go 7-8 innings? So what? Quarterbacks don’t play in the secondary any more, either, but I never saw anyone hold that against Tom Brady…

 

Football is an entirely different game. There is nothing about the games itself nor the financial aspects of them that make the two sport dynamics relevant to each other.

 

As for the team "investment" in pitchers that would be tolerable if they had anything but crap to cover the 6th through 9th innings and in some cases the 5th through 9th innings and in other cases the 4th through 9th innings. As for total longevity, other than Sandy Koufax show me Starters from the 1950's through 1970's era that had relatively shortened careers when compared to the current crop of Starters and maybe YOU don't care how diluted MLB baseball has become, but I do.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Or the NFL. Or the NBA. Or the Greater Chicago Men’s 16 Inch Softball Beer Guzzling League…

 

 

That's fine because I don't follow any of those leagues or associations.

[jad]

No. It was fine actually. The play isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Rose should have slid around the tag for his own sake, not the catcher's sake.

 

Yes it is. He went for the ribs. It was a cheap shot that ended Fosse's career. If you're fine with that, there's no argument, because that, apparently, is who you are.

[mvp 78]

… at the plate. He’s a one dimensional player. But as the saying goes, it’s one heckuva dimension.

 

Of course, he’s also 22. If he loses this year, he will have 7 or 8 more chances to win a few awards…

 

Age ain’t nuthin but a number

[mvp 78]

Yes it is. He went for the ribs. It was a cheap shot that ended Fosse's career. If you're fine with that, there's no argument, because that, apparently, is who you are.

 

Yes, not a cheap shot. It was within the rules.