Bloom move your asssssss

[moonslav59]

Again none of that diminishes the fact that DD was fired for his management style not his spending which Henry approved of when it happened.

 

He approved the spending based on the idea that DD knew who he was signing and that it would lead to continued winning. It's not unreasonable to expect to win when you are out spending all teams- half by double or triple.

 

I'm sure losing played a role in the firing. We'll likely never know if it was the major reason or not.

[Elktonnick]

He approved the spending based on the idea that DD knew who he was signing and that it would lead to continued winning. It's not unreasonable to expect to win when you are out spending all teams- half by double or triple.

 

I'm sure losing played a role in the firing. We'll likely never know if it was the major reason or not.

 

Oh I think we know that it wasn't. Many simply refuse to believe because it is inconsistent with their narrative. Sure the spending had some role as did not winning but it was minor compared to the general misery that DD was spreading in the FO. Clearly Henry saw that as the bigger threat to the long term success of the organization than the Lux tax. I think Henry's mindset was like mine or yours in a similar situation, I can no longer need to put up with this crap. Too many good people are jumping ship.

[moonslav59]

Oh I think we know that it wasn't. Many simply refuse to believe because it is inconsistent with their narrative. Sure the spending had some role as did not winning but it was minor compared to the general misery that DD was spreading in the FO. Clearly Henry saw that as the bigger threat to the long term success of the organization than the Lux tax. I think Henry's mindset was like mine or yours in a similar situation, I can no longer need to put up with this crap. Too many good people are jumping ship.

 

You think the "crap" just started in 2019?

 

Henry and others put up with the "crap" when we were winning.

 

Only when we lost, while still spending the most, did the change get made.

 

We don't know jack. Gammons has his opinion, and it's probably a combination of things that led to his end.

[Bellhorn04]

You think the "crap" just started in 2019?

 

Henry and others put up with the "crap" when we were winning.

 

Only when we lost, while still spending the most, did the change get made.

 

We don't know jack. Gammons has his opinion, and it's probably a combination of things that led to his end.

 

I'm quite sure it was a combination of things.

 

The personality conflict stuff actually makes a nice cover, if the real reason was just a cold-blooded assessment that DD wasn't the right guy going forward.

[Elktonnick]

You think the "crap" just started in 2019?

 

Henry and others put up with the "crap" when we were winning.

 

Only when we lost, while still spending the most, did the change get made.

 

We don't know jack. Gammons has his opinion, and it's probably a combination of things that led to his end.

 

From Russo and others, Henry was going to fire DD in 2018 but decided not to after winning the World Series. As Gammons wrote Henry refused to renew DD'd contract in 2019. There were leaks to that effect throughout the year. DD in September brought it to a head and was fired after he confronted Werner. Now you all can choose not to believe Gammons whose reporting is pretty solid. But I think the record is clear that Henry and Co had enough of DD's style regardless of the spending. Again Gammons is probably the most respected baseball writer in the US. I can think of no one with his stature. Gammons makes it pretty clear it was about collaboration not spending.

[moonslav59]

From Russo and others, Henry was going to fire DD in 2018 but decided not to after winning the World Series.

 

I rest my case.

 

Had we won in 2019, DD would still be here.

[Elktonnick]

I'm quite sure it was a combination of things.

 

The personality conflict stuff actually makes a nice cover, if the real reason was just a cold-blooded assessment that DD wasn't the right guy going forward.

Actually you have it backwards. Russo specifically said in his nationwide radio and TV show in Sept immediately after the firing that the assessment of DD not being the right man was a cover for DDs personality as the real reason for his dismissal. Gammons's article makes it crystal clear that office morale was awful and it was affecting both the FO's current performance but the future as well. The article if you read it was pretty damning about a toxic work environment which is what one Boston sportswriter actually called the FO during this era.

[Swiharts Ghost]

I dont get the Dave hate never will .The man delivered what some teams dream of .Can we just make fun of Bloom now ?

[Elktonnick]

I rest my case

 

Had we won in 2019, DD would still be here.

Not likely. Henry said in February that he was going to renew DDs contract but kept postponing it. I think the available evidence is more than sufficient to indicate that Henry and Werner had enough of the work environment that DD had created. But since the Sox never made the playoffs the argument is moot. Henry fired him with a month to go as Gammons described in another article.

[Elktonnick]

I dont get the Dave hate never will .The man delivered what some teams dream of .Can we just make fun of Bloom now ?

 

I do not think I hate DD but merely citing what Gammons reported. I do not believe Gammons hates DD either. The facts are for whatever his successes may be, it seems that many who worked for and with him do have some animus towards him though.

[moonslav59]

Not likely. Henry said in February that he was going to renew DDs contract but kept postponing it. I think the available evidence is more than sufficient to indicate that Henry and Werner had enough of the work environment that DD had created. But since the Sox never made the playoffs the argument is moot. Henry fired him with a month to go as Gammons described in another article.

 

You are reading the evidence through the lens of an eye already knowing what it wants to see.

 

Much of this "evidence" can be looked at as supporting opposite viewpoints.

 

If things we so bad that they were "going to fire DD after 2018" had they not won, why is Henry saying he was "going to renew DD's contract?"

 

Are we being asked to think Henry was not being genuine, but Russo was?

 

Clearly, losing had a hand in the decision. One can argue the "toxic environment" helped lead to the losing, but apparently it was there in 2018, too.

 

You can feel certain about this, but I'm not certain at all and don't see how anyone can know, except Henry. Insiders often put spin on statements, and we can all pick and choose which ones to believe or not.

[notin]

Actually you have it backwards. Russo specifically said in his nationwide radio and TV show in Sept immediately after the firing that the assessment of DD not being the right man was a cover for DDs personality as the real reason for his dismissal. Gammons's article makes it crystal clear that office morale was awful and it was affecting both the FO's current performance but the future as well. The article if you read it was pretty damning about a toxic work environment which is what one Boston sportswriter actually called the FO during this era.

 

Do you have a link to this article? Most of the articles I saw on the subject related Dombrowski’s dismissal to his continued pursuit of a contract extension. Henry himself said Dombrowski deserved one immediately after the World Series on the field, and reiterated it again in spring training. No one seemed upset at his management style then...

[notin]

You are reading the evidence through the lens of an eye already knowing what it wants to see.

 

Much of this "evidence" can be looked at as supporting opposite viewpoints.

 

If things we so bad that they were "going to fire DD after 2018" had they not won, why is Henry saying he was "going to renew DD's contract?"

 

Are we being asked to think Henry was not being genuine, but Russo was?

 

Clearly, losing had a hand in the decision. One can argue the "toxic environment" helped lead to the losing, but apparently it was there in 2018, too.

 

You can feel certain about this, but I'm not certain at all and don't see how anyone can know, except Henry. Insiders often put spin on statements, and we can all pick and choose which ones to believe or not.

 

There were also plenty of reasons to believe Henry was upset about the payroll, such as:

 

1. Not letting Dombrowski add any salary at the trade deadline last year.

 

2. The clear and obvious plan to reset and get under the tax limit

 

3. The hiring of a new team architect who constructed a postseason team with a payroll among the lowest in the league

[moonslav59]

There were also plenty of reasons to believe Henry was upset about the payroll, such as:

 

1. Not letting Dombrowski add any salary at the trade deadline last year.

 

2. The clear and obvious plan to reset and get under the tax limit

 

3. The hiring of a new team architect who constructed a postseason team with a payroll among the lowest in the league

 

If Gammons would say this, then it would be fact.

[Elktonnick]

Do you have a link to this article? Most of the articles I saw on the subject related Dombrowski’s dismissal to his continued pursuit of a contract extension. Henry himself said Dombrowski deserved one immediately after the World Series on the field, and reiterated it again in spring training. No one seemed upset at his management style then...

 

Subscribe to The Athletic it is behind a paywall.

 

Until I heard Russo and Gammons speak about this in separate shows on the MLB network after DDs sudden departure did I realize that DD had leadership issues. I seems it was common knowledge among baseball circles but because it dealt with personality issues there was this wall of silence. Baseball execs do not speak ill of one another in public for obvious reasons. It seemed once DD is gone then the gloves came off.

[Elktonnick]

If Gammons would say this, then it would be fact.

 

Gammons is an award winning sportswriter , the most highly respected baseball writer in the US you and others here are not. That is the difference.

[moonslav59]

Subscribe to The Athletic it is behind a paywall.

 

Until I heard Russo and Gammons speak about this in separate shows on the MLB network after DDs sudden departure did I realize that DD had leadership issues. I seems it was common knowledge among baseball circles but because it dealt with personality issues there was this wall of silence. Baseball execs do not speak ill of one another in public for obvious reasons. It seemed once DD is gone then the gloves came off.

 

Wall of silence? Henry was publicly saying DD would be extended, according to your earlier post.

[moonslav59]

Gammons is an award winning sportswriter , the most highly respected baseball writer in the US you and others here are not. That is the difference.

 

He's never been wrong?

 

I quit my subscription to the Globe over him and the gang.

 

(Besides, I'm not saying Gammons is wrong. I'm just saying we don't know what reasons carried the most weight.)

Edited December 20, 2019 by moonslav59

[Elktonnick]

He's never been wrong?

 

I quit my subscription to the Globe over him and the gang.

 

Gammons also left the Globe

[Elktonnick]

Wall of silence? Henry was publicly saying DD would be extended, according to your earlier post.

He said he was going to renew

In Feb but he never did it before ST. Gammons specifically cites an April incident of how poor morale to be in the FO. I think it is probable that Henry and Werner decided then that they weren't going to renew because the poor state of collaboration in the FO.

[Elktonnick]

He's never been wrong?

 

I quit my subscription to the Globe over him and the gang.

 

(Besides, I'm not saying Gammons is wrong. I'm just saying we don't know what reasons carried the most weight.)

 

Sure we do. Henry has plenty of money. But he can not afford to restructure the entire FO which is the heart of the team's success. Like I wrote earlier the Lux Tax isn't the greatest threat to the long term viability of the Red Sox. But a failure to attract and retain outstanding FO talent would be. That is why DD was fired

[moonslav59]

Sure we do. Henry has plenty of money. But he can not afford to restructure the entire FO which is the heart of the team's success. Like I wrote earlier the Lux Tax isn't the greatest threat to the long term viability of the Red Sox. But a failure to attract and retain outstanding FO talent would be. That is why DD was fired

 

Sorry, but I think that is totally unsubstantiated.

 

Players will always come to the teams who pay the most.

 

You sound so sure of yourself on some very murky issues.

[Elktonnick]

Sorry, but I think that is totally unsubstantiated.

 

Players will always come to the teams who pay the most.

 

You sound so sure of yourself on some very murky issues.

 

I think it is well substantiated.

[moonslav59]

I think it is well substantiated.

 

About players not wanting to play here due to DD's relationship skills in the FO?

 

I'm literally laughing out load.

[Elktonnick]

About players not wanting to play here due to DD's relationship skills in the FO?

 

I'm literally laughing out load.

 

Re read the post I posted about the front office personnel leaving as did Gammons. The only one talking about players was you.

[mvp 78]

Anything the Globe says about someone who left the team should be taken with a grain of salt. They love kicking people after they are out the door.

[moonslav59]

Re read the post I posted about the front office personnel leaving as did Gammons. The only one talking about players was you.

 

Sorry, my bad. The last laughs on me.

 

Let's move on. I've already argued way too long on an issue I have no opinion on other than we don't know.

[notin]

Re read the post I posted about the front office personnel leaving as did Gammons. The only one talking about players was you.

 

Other than Cherington, what front office people did Dombrowski drive away?

 

But really, no doubt DD was an a-hole. But Henry knew that when he hired him from their time together in Florida. I believe as long as those pennants were hanging, DD was safe. But once they stopped, DD was in trouble, and the mess everyone knew was coming when they hired him got here too fast. But if the Sox won the AL East in 2019, no way would DD have been fired. His management style was clearly acceptable when they were winning...

[Elktonnick]

Other than Cherington, what front office people did Dombrowski drive away?

 

But really, no doubt DD was an a-hole. But Henry knew that when he hired him from their time together in Florida. I believe as long as those pennants were hanging, DD was safe. But once they stopped, DD was in trouble, and the mess everyone knew was coming when they hired him got here too fast. But if the Sox won the AL East in 2019, no way would DD have been fired. His management style was clearly acceptable when they were winning...

 

The last three lines of the portion of the article said; "In fact, when Dombrowski arrived in Boston, Kennedy picked him up at the airport. Dombrowski asked Kennedy to arrange a meeting between him and Cherington. He’d been hired and didn’t know Cherington was already gone. A year later, Hazen, Jared Porter and Amiel Sawdaye, three key figures in a decade of success, left for Arizona with no love lost for Dombrowski."

 

Once again the evidence strongly suggests that Henry and Werner decided not to renew DDs contract in the spring around April. Remember Henry said he was going to renew DDs contract in February well before ST had begun. The fact that he did not do so then is highly suggestive that Henry had no intention of renewing the contract.

Since the Sox did not make the playoffs means we will never know. But I think FO staff were so miserable and the work environment so toxic as I recall one Boston sportwriter putting it that Henry could no longer tolerate DDs leadership style.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Elktonnick

[moonslav59]

Anything the Globe says about someone who left the team should be taken with a grain of salt. They love kicking people after they are out the door.

 

I stopped paying attention to the Globe sports page long ago.