Mookie and Andrew Mcutchen .....

[cp176]

While moving Betts could be unpopular with the casual everyday he gets his sports news from Bob Lobel (is he still working?), that doesn’t change the fact that fans want one thing more than star players - winners. When defending Dombrowski’s depletion of the farm, not one single fan said “But he got star players!!” No one ever justified the Nomar trade by saying “Orlando Cabrera is a bigger star, and most definitely not a slimy little selfish weasel about to disembark on a trail of burned bridges around MLB.”

 

The Sox were an 84!win team last year. No one was happy. Bring back the same team, maybe an 84 win team again. They had Betts, too. This team is capable of mediocrity with him or without him. Does keeping Betts and winning 84 games next year really retain fans? Especially if they reset the taxes and can’t add anyone? And then lose Betts to free agency helps those fans how?

 

First pf all, if any fan who follows this team on an everyday basis regardless of where he gets his information is the type of fan that carries great weight. Not every fan is immersed in the game as some of the people who invest so much time here. They work, they have families but still love their team every bit as much as anyone else does. i'm not really sure notin how much of this years team's failures needs to be laid on the shoulders of one of the best in the game. I would love to see him remain in Boston. If he doesn't stay, I hope that he is at least somewhat replaceable. When we start taking about impact players, he has to be at the top of the list. As excited as I was about Nomar, sorry, he was never Betts. Betts is Clemens, Lynn, and Yastezemski like in my book. Franchise changing players. Joe average here - over and out.

[cp176]

This is a smart, thoughtful post. The Red Sox have to consider the silent majority... that's "silent" as in fans who don't type daily during the offseason on forums like us -- but people who regularly watch games on TV, listen on radio, attend games with families, do the wave, sing to Neil Diamond, and couldn't tell you who Triston Casas is.

 

As for Betts and the caution that small guys don't age well: if I were a GM investing in a ballplayer long term, I'd much rather take the chance on a five-tool talent than a "big guy" who's game relies on big muscles. Look at how well the Pujols and Cabrera contracts have aged... not very.

 

Thanks for those kind words.

[moonslav59]

First pf all, if any fan who follows this team on an everyday basis regardless of where he gets his information is the type of fan that carries great weight. Not every fan is immersed in the game as some of the people who invest so much time here. They work, they have families but still love their team every bit as much as anyone else does. i'm not really sure notin how much of this years team's failures needs to be laid on the shoulders of one of the best in the game. I would love to see him remain in Boston. If he doesn't stay, I hope that he is at least somewhat replaceable. When we start taking about impact players, he has to be at the top of the list. As excited as I was about Nomar, sorry, he was never Betts. Betts is Clemens, Lynn, and Yastezemski like in my book. Franchise changing players. Joe average here - over and out.

 

Exactly.

[notin]

First pf all, if any fan who follows this team on an everyday basis regardless of where he gets his information is the type of fan that carries great weight. Not every fan is immersed in the game as some of the people who invest so much time here. They work, they have families but still love their team every bit as much as anyone else does. i'm not really sure notin how much of this years team's failures needs to be laid on the shoulders of one of the best in the game. I would love to see him remain in Boston. If he doesn't stay, I hope that he is at least somewhat replaceable. When we start taking about impact players, he has to be at the top of the list. As excited as I was about Nomar, sorry, he was never Betts. Betts is Clemens, Lynn, and Yastezemski like in my book. Franchise changing players. Joe average here - over and out.

 

I’m not blaming Betts for this season. I’m saying fans would rather have a winning team over star players. The stars were more important when the team wasn’t as good, because they gave us something to root for once we knew another year went by without a title.

[cp176]

I’m not blaming Betts for this season. I’m saying fans would rather have a winning team over star players. The stars were more important when the team wasn’t as good, because they gave us something to root for once we knew another year went by without a title.

 

Hopefully no one anywhere would disagree with your statement here. Understand also though that I am one of those fans who truly believes that if our pitchers had remained healthy this year we would not be having this discussion. it was a gamble taken that didn't work out. It is possible that a trade involving Mookie might work out as well but I think that if the return brought prospects not major league ready, it could impact the fan base for many years. We are talking Boston here. If trading Mookie brought great results in 3 or 4 years, i just don't think that it would be viewed in the same way that it would be in select small market areas where a team has rarely competed and never won.

[notin]

Hopefully no one anywhere would disagree with your statement here. Understand also though that I am one of those fans who truly believes that if our pitchers had remained healthy this year we would not be having this discussion. it was a gamble taken that didn't work out. It is possible that a trade involving Mookie might work out as well but I think that if the return brought prospects not major league ready, it could impact the fan base for many years. We are talking Boston here. If trading Mookie brought great results in 3 or 4 years, i just don't think that it would be viewed in the same way that it would be in select small market areas where a team has rarely competed and never won.

 

Well, if the Sox pitchers never got hurt, trading Mookie might still be on the table, as the team would still be extremely expensive. But more important, let’s not pretend these injuries were not foreseeable. Sale ended 2018 having problems. Price has been off and on with injuries for the previous 2 seasons. And Eovaldi is always hurt. Sure, maybe 2018 was just a stroke of bad luck where the 3 combined for less than 60 starts. Or maybe this is what they are going forward.

 

Trading Mookie may or may not work out. But if you don’t, and you go for it in 2020, then you delay reset for a year and lose Mookie forever. If the Sox trade Mookie and reset, there is at least a chance at bringing him back.

 

 

Of course, trading Price does the same thing. But it’s a lot less likely to happen, and still might be more costly...

[Bellhorn04]

Keep Mookie for 2020 with the intention that we can trade him at the deadline if circumstances warrant it.

 

To me that's the plan that will come closest to pleasing everyone.

[notin]

Keep Mookie for 2020 with the intention that we can trade him at the deadline if circumstances warrant it.

 

To me that's the plan that will come closest to pleasing everyone.

 

Except Henry. The only one matters...

[Bellhorn04]

Except Henry. The only one matters...

 

I'm including Henry. He makes his money off the fans, and this will be palatable to most fans.

[moonslav59]

Keeping him until July will not hurt season ticket sales & NESN subscriptions.

 

It also does Betts a favor by not attaching a comp pick when he becomes a FA.

 

It allows us to see if we can possibly win it all in 2020 but still let us retool, if we don't look competitive. The hard choice will be, if we look kind of competitive by the deadline.

[cp176]

Well, if the Sox pitchers never got hurt, trading Mookie might still be on the table, as the team would still be extremely expensive. But more important, let’s not pretend these injuries were not foreseeable. Sale ended 2018 having problems. Price has been off and on with injuries for the previous 2 seasons. And Eovaldi is always hurt. Sure, maybe 2018 was just a stroke of bad luck where the 3 combined for less than 60 starts. Or maybe this is what they are going forward.

 

Trading Mookie may or may not work out. But if you don’t, and you go for it in 2020, then you delay reset for a year and lose Mookie forever. If the Sox trade Mookie and reset, there is at least a chance at bringing him back.

 

 

Of course, trading Price does the same thing. But it’s a lot less likely to happen, and still might be more costly...

 

I had a fairly good idea that this might revert back to the pitcher's injuries this year being foreseeable or not. I understand that I tend to look at things differently than you do. It would be nice to think that John Henry took into consideration the potential injury prospects of the players that he agreed to pay for. I get what is being said but I really don't think that it has much to do with whether or not trading Betts for low budget potential makes any sense. If it is all about staying below a certain tax level, ok fine, but I tend to think that the effect it will have on that regular old fan will be painful. In my estimation, it becomes an issue of what we might get in return for trading a player who years from now, many might wish that we had paid for.

[notin]

I had a fairly good idea that this might revert back to the pitcher's injuries this year being foreseeable or not. I understand that I tend to look at things differently than you do. It would be nice to think that John Henry took into consideration the potential injury prospects of the players that he agreed to pay for. I get what is being said but I really don't think that it has much to do with whether or not trading Betts for low budget potential makes any sense. If it is all about staying below a certain tax level, ok fine, but I tend to think that the effect it will have on that regular old fan will be painful. In my estimation, it becomes an issue of what we might get in return for trading a player who years from now, many might wish that we had paid for.

 

Yes it could very easily be painful.

 

But this is the price for Dombrowski's actions. DD did win a title, but he left behind a very expensive team that has a few missing pieces and no minimum wage replacements. We all enjoyed winning in 2018, but losing Betts this offseason could easily be part of that price of that title...

[Bellhorn04]

Yes it could very easily be painful.

 

But this is the price for Dombrowski's actions. DD did win a title, but he left behind a very expensive team that has a few missing pieces and no minimum wage replacements. We all enjoyed winning in 2018, but losing Betts this offseason could easily be part of that price of that title...

 

I think if we lose Mookie, it won't be because of DD. It will be because his asking price is deemed too high by JH & Bloom, or because he wants to play elsewhere.

[Slasher9]

when Mook hits FA he will 100% sign with the team that offers him the best contract. it wont matter if that is the tampa bay devil rays, the oakland athletics, the new york metropolitans, or the toronto blue jays.

11 / $345MM will be the contract.

[Bellhorn04]

when Mook hits FA he will 100% sign with the team that offers him the best contract. it wont matter if that is the tampa bay devil rays, the oakland athletics, the new york metropolitans, or the toronto blue jays.

11 / $345MM will be the contract.

 

Do you see an opt-out in there Swami?

[Slasher9]

Do you see an opt-out in there Swami?

 

yes sir. player (of course) after years 3 and 4.

[notin]

I think if we lose Mookie, it won't be because of DD. It will be because his asking price is deemed too high by JH & Bloom, or because he wants to play elsewhere.

 

Well, if we trade Mookie this offseason, it will be be because of the contracts left behind by Dombrowski, specifically the contracts of Price, Sale and Eovaldi.

 

If they do not trade him and he leaves via free agency, it will be because the Sox did not make the best offer (or made no offer). But the Sox offer might be limited by a budget that includes those same 3 deals. Especially if they are still paying luxury tax against Henry's wishes.

 

While Mookie might want a change of scenery, nothing about him so far says he would reject a better Boston offer just to change teams...

[Bellhorn04]

Well, if we trade Mookie this offseason, it will be be because of the contracts left behind by Dombrowski, specifically the contracts of Price, Sale and Eovaldi.

 

If they do not trade him and he leaves via free agency, it will be because the Sox did not make the best offer (or made no offer). But the Sox offer might be limited by a budget that includes those same 3 deals. Especially if they are still paying luxury tax against Henry's wishes.

 

While Mookie might want a change of scenery, nothing about him so far says he would reject a better Boston offer just to change teams...

 

You can pin it on DD if you want, but Henry hired DD, approved all those deals and knew this was coming with Mookie.

 

So I'm sticking with JH as the man to point the finger at.

[moonslav59]

when Mook hits FA he will 100% sign with the team that offers him the best contract. it wont matter if that is the tampa bay devil rays, the oakland athletics, the new york metropolitans, or the toronto blue jays.

11 / $345MM will be the contract.

 

If two offers are very close, he may consider location, local taxes and family preferences.

[S5Dewey]

You can pin it on DD if you want, but Henry hired DD, approved all those deals and knew this was coming with Mookie.

 

So I'm sticking with JH as the man to point the finger at.

 

I don't blame either JH or DD. This whole thing came about because of the pitching staff being ineffective in 2019. This would have been a lot more palatable if things had gone as planned and we'd been contenders in 2019 when we'd have had another good year before this sh*tstorm started. That was the plan and IMO most of us were ready for it to happen then. What it did in reality is move the angst up a year to a time when we weren't ready for it. Hence, we're pointing fingers.

[notin]

You can pin it on DD if you want, but Henry hired DD, approved all those deals and knew this was coming with Mookie.

 

So I'm sticking with JH as the man to point the finger at.

 

If that suits you, that's fine. But while JH might have approved the deals, he didn't write them and execute them.

 

I mean, by that logic, shouldn't Cherington be exonerated for Sandoval, Ramirez and Castillo?

[notin]

I don't blame either JH or DD. This whole thing came about because of the pitching staff being ineffective in 2019. This would have been a lot more palatable if things had gone as planned and we'd been contenders in 2019 when we'd have had another good year before this sh*tstorm started. That was the plan and IMO most of us were ready for it to happen then. What it did in reality is move the angst up a year to a time when we weren't ready for it. Hence, we're pointing fingers.

 

And while we might have seen an unlikely worst case scenario, I still wouldn't say the whole situation was unforseeable. The Sox extended one pitcher coming off an injury, and signed a long term deal to another very injury prone pitcher. All this two years after giving one of the biggest pitching contracts in MLB history out to another pitcher who had been having injury problems.

[notin]

If two offers are very close, he may consider location, local taxes and family preferences.

 

Very possible.

 

 

If taxes are a factor, he is not coming to Illinois...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Something has been bothering me about this whole Betts dilemma in the past year: I can’t imagine this ownership is unwilling to pay or even overpay with the ultimate top bid to keep a fan favorite – one that already led Boston to a world title -- who is now about to enter his prime.

 

I just don’t believe that billionaire owners of a billion-dollar franchise who have always been willing to spend to sustain and improve a competitive product have suddenly drawn the line with their best player… not after throwing money at shiny baubles, trinkets and fugazis for years and years (Renteria, Drew, Lugo, Crawford, Panda, Hanley, Price, etc. – not to mention damaged goods like Sale and Eovaldi).

 

There is no way I will believe the Sox can’t afford whatever Betts wants, or can't absorb any accompanying tax penalties. There is also no way I will believe that a few bad (so far) contracts to pitchers – guys who play maybe once a week during the season – has anything to do with Boston affording their best everyday regular. I also don’t believe that the owners – after 20 years -- have suddenly changed their minds about how they approach casting a successful show in what is nothing more than an entertainment business. Adults don’t change who they are, and in most cases, old adults can’t change who they are.

 

The quotes, columns and stories that have been circulating for months have to be management’s spin to the public that they’re trying to make the best of a situation they know has gotten beyond their control. If Mookie had said just once, “I want to be a Red Sox for life” – and the Sox replied, “We will make sure you are” – that would have ended daily speculation long ago, and all would be quiet until the presser to announce his extension.

[Bellhorn04]

If that suits you, that's fine. But while JH might have approved the deals, he didn't write them and execute them.

 

I mean, by that logic, shouldn't Cherington be exonerated for Sandoval, Ramirez and Castillo?

 

I'm not exonerating DD for Sale, Price and Eovaldi.

 

I'm just saying that JH could clearly see what was coming with Mookie and our payroll situation.

 

Now it's up to him to make the call one way or the other and whether the price for Mookie is too high or not. And in my opinion that decision is not affected by the money on the books for SPE. It's a bigger and longer-lasting decision than that. It's a decision that could be felt for a decade.

[notin]

Something has been bothering me about this whole Betts dilemma in the past year: I can’t imagine this ownership is unwilling to pay or even overpay with the ultimate top bid to keep a fan favorite – one that already led Boston to a world title -- who is now about to enter his prime.

 

I just don’t believe that billionaire owners of a billion-dollar franchise who have always been willing to spend to sustain and improve a competitive product have suddenly drawn the line with their best player… not after throwing money at shiny baubles, trinkets and fugazis for years and years (Renteria, Drew, Lugo, Crawford, Panda, Hanley, Price, etc. – not to mention damaged goods like Sale and Eovaldi).

 

There is no way I will believe the Sox can’t afford whatever Betts wants, or can't absorb any accompanying tax penalties. There is also no way I will believe that a few bad (so far) contracts to pitchers – guys who play maybe once a week during the season – has anything to do with Boston affording their best everyday regular. I also don’t believe that the owners – after 20 years -- have suddenly changed their minds about how they approach casting a successful show in what is nothing more than an entertainment business. Adults don’t change who they are, and in most cases, old adults can’t change who they are.

 

The quotes, columns and stories that have been circulating for months have to be management’s spin to the public that they’re trying to make the best of a situation they know has gotten beyond their control. If Mookie had said just once, “I want to be a Red Sox for life” – and the Sox replied, “We will make sure you are” – that would have ended daily speculation long ago, and all would be quiet until the presser to announce his extension.

 

 

It is entirely possible the story and rumors about the Sox resetting are overblown, and i's exactly like Kennedy said - a goal but not a mandate.

 

Especally when you consider the luxury tax payments the Sox are trying to avoid are typically about $10-15 mill,or less than the Sox spent on Pablo Sandoval last year.

 

If paying that extra $10-15mill allows Henry to earn, say, an extra $20-25 mill, certainly no reason he would want to avoid it, right? I certainly think he'd like to earn more without paying it, but that isn't the same as insisting on resetting.

 

Unless his real issue is with the draft pick penalties and their long term impact on the club...

[moonslav59]

It is entirely possible the story and rumors about the Sox resetting are overblown, and i's exactly like Kennedy said - a goal but not a mandate.

 

Especally when you consider the luxury tax payments the Sox are trying to avoid are typically about $10-15 mill,or less than the Sox spent on Pablo Sandoval last year.

 

If paying that extra $10-15mill allows Henry to earn, say, an extra $20-25 mill, certainly no reason he would want to avoid it, right? I certainly think he'd like to earn more without paying it, but that isn't the same as insisting on resetting.

 

Unless his real issue is with the draft pick penalties and their long term impact on the club...

 

I think the biggest advantage of resetting is that it allows us to go way over the line in 2021 (sign Betts?) without major taxes.

[S5Dewey]

And while we might have seen an unlikely worst case scenario, I still wouldn't say the whole situation was unforseeable. The Sox extended one pitcher coming off an injury, and signed a long term deal to another very injury prone pitcher. All this two years after giving one of the biggest pitching contracts in MLB history out to another pitcher who had been having injury problems.

 

Where's the line between "unlikely" and "unforeseeable"?

[Swiharts Ghost]

One more bite at the apple ? I'm down with this .

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Nowadays, all MLB small markets understand the fear of losing stars to free agency, and getting nothing back in return. It makes less sense in a big market like Boston, though many players have walked away over the years – Hurst, Pedro, Lowe, Esasky, Bay – when the Sox didn’t quite match top offers. The early days of free agency were different, when guys like Fisk or all the Oakland A’s stars, for example, bolted because of bitter contract issues.

 

The Fred Lynn situation was most similar to Betts, except for one big difference. Like Mookie, Freddie was a year removed from being the best player in baseball (he led 1979 in WAR, but finished 4th in MVP voting; those were the days when writers still favored guys on first-place teams). Everyone assumed Lynn, a California boy, was eager to go back home when he became a free agent. The kicker was that Boston in 1980 was no longer run by a front office eager to spend to retain its stars. Tom Yawkey had died a few years earlier, and his widow and “trust” weren’t quite as invested to invest.

 

The Angels at the time were the West coast Yankees (and had already nabbed All-Star shortstop Rick Burleson; another cog Boston wasn’t going to pay) – and since the Sox knew they weren’t going to win any auctions, they dumped Lynn for a bucket of BP balls... which the front office pinched with penny-ante fingers. Word of caution: Boston baseball was pretty mediocre for the next half decade, before Clemens emerged from the farm to turn things around.

Edited November 18, 2019 by 5GoldGloves:OF,75
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